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So I feel so far that both from a mechanics and from a cinematic point of view that units should be able to fire overwatch at any point during the charges move.

In other words, defender should not be restricted in firing at the charger purely based on their distance at the point the charge is declared.

I can picture a unit holding fire until the enemy close in.

I cannot picture a unit not firing when the charges charge towards them but start the charge out of weapons range. They would not surely stare at them and not bother firing as soon as they are in weapons range.

What does everyone else think? Does it make sense that defending unit should get the opportunity to fire overwatch even if their weapons are out of range when the charge is declared? Can you really imagine a flamethrower not spouting flames at a charging unit as it closes, just because they began the charge further away?

I think this is a common sense rule change, but I believe the rules were written as they are on purpose.

If there's no way to circumvent certain unit's flamethrowers, they're effectively unchargeable and GW didn't want that result.

TS w/ Flamers, D=Scythe Guard, Etc.

I get what you are talking about, but doing so simply means that people won't risk long charges, and all screens will start sporting flamer weapons. To some extent I find overwatch immersion breaking in general especially with heavy weapons.

Breng77 wrote:
I get what you are talking about, but doing so simply means that people won't risk long charges, and all screens will start sporting flamer weapons. To some extent I find overwatch immersion breaking in general especially with heavy weapons.

There's no problem with "Every unit taking flamers" the problem is with particular units that can take volume of flamers.

There's no problem with the rule change in general, it'd just create some obvious breaks

 znelson wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I get what you are talking about, but doing so simply means that people won't risk long charges, and all screens will start sporting flamer weapons. To some extent I find overwatch immersion breaking in general especially with heavy weapons.

There's no problem with "Every unit taking flamers" the problem is with particular units that can take volume of flamers.

There's no problem with the rule change in general, it'd just create some obvious breaks

I completely agree the rule change would need to be balanced accordingly, either through say an increase in points for multi flamers.

The change would be sensible if managed accordingly, and create less risk of inadvertently getting the rule wrong in meantime.

I disagree, even 2 flamers (which is an amount that many squads can take) would be a hazard in overwatch to some units. Weapons have range for a reason, and longer charges carry risk with them the chance of a 9" charge (8" roll) is only 41%. Melee is already on the weaker side, so I'm not sure shooting needs a buff to make long charges even less desirable.

As for cinematic point of view that is up to personal interpretation. Is it dumb that the guy 2' to the left of the guy getting charged doesn't shoot because he is in a different unit? If things are really happening simultaneously in the battle (not step by step like the game) how does the unit have time to turn away from the unit they are shooting at, to shoot another unit just because that unit rushes at them. How do they do it with multiple charges if charges fail? How does the guy with a missile launcher set it up for firing so quickly?

So we can ignore the range, when all 1s to hit in overwatch hit the firing unit, and flamers can only shoot if they are the closest model lest they hit the guys between them and the unit charging.

What if overwatch worked such that it ignored range and LoS (as proposed in this thread), but that it only worked on a "successful charge" - rather than always working whether the charge was successful or not.

This would help balance overwatch a little better, especially for flamers (e.g., you know you'd be hit by flamers but would be guaranteed to get something into melee - assuming they survive over-watch).

The other tweak would be preventing heavy weapons from firing via overwatch.

Flamers in overwatch could get a -1 to the numbers of units affected if balance felt like a major issue.

 Mezmorki wrote:
What if overwatch worked such that it ignored range and LoS (as proposed in this thread), but that it only worked on a "successful charge" - rather than always working whether the charge was successful or not.

This would help balance overwatch a little better, especially for flamers (e.g., you know you'd be hit by flamers but would be guaranteed to get something into melee - assuming they survive over-watch).

The other tweak would be preventing heavy weapons from firing via overwatch.

Flamers in overwatch could get a -1 to the numbers of units affected if balance felt like a major issue.

That would work, but after all those tweaks why not just leave it as is? It is much simpler to just say, if you have range you can shoot. This also makes non-flamer overwatch much worse. As I can try a bunch of long charges at no risk at all, and fail all but one and only take 1 overwatch. Right now I would take overwatch on each unit.

I really think flamer overwatch and overwatch in general are just fine as is, I think flamers being out of range of 8+" charges is fine as those are low probability risky charges, it allows for counter play where I can try to deny overwatch with a long charge, or get a guaranteed charge and eat full overwatch.

Personally I hate overwatch and would rather see it not have it in the game, unless it was only if you did not fire in your shooting phase, but you got full BS. Essentially make it a unit waiting to have optimal range for their guns. As it is it takes a bunch of time for very little return in most cases.

I agree that over watch in 8th ed is a poor solution to a problem that should not exist.
If GW used a more interactive game turn for 40K, over watch would not be needed.

Can't help but thinking that simply removing overwatch would be the best fix. Can't see a reason why a standard unit would have 1 more shooting phase than the exact same unit just because it's getting charged...
If it was assault weapons only, I'd get it.

Yeah, the timing of things in this game doesn't make sense.

If we assume that moving + shooting reflects a chunk of time, what are those units doing while other units that moved + shot then ALSO charged and fought in assault? Doesn't make sense.