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Couple questions - limitations on moving while falling back, and tau saviour protocols.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

So, have a couple questions I wouldn't mind a second opinion on.

The first is: When falling back, are there any limitations on how you move - specifically, moving within 1" of enemy models?

My thought about falling back is that you use it to get out of 1" of enemy models as quickly as possible. But in re-reading it, there doesn't seem to be any such prohibition. Assuming you can't fly, can you remain within 1" of enemy models while falling back, so long as you end your move more than 1" of enemy models? Can you move within 1" of enemy models you weren't in combat with before - again, as long as you end more than 1" away from them?

Theoretically, could you even move in between gaps in an enemy unit, provided your base can fit? Say, if, 5 terminators were all in a straight line at max coherency, could grots just slip inbetween them?

Second question is about savior protocols.

Lets say ghaz charges a ghostkeel with 2x drones nearby, and ghaz hits 4 times, wounds 4 times, it fails 4 saves, and are 3 damage apiece. So it takes 12 wounds.

How exactly does savior protocols help? Rules reference quote: "you can choose to allocate any wounds to the drones instead of the target unit." It seems that it works one of 3 ways:

A: The way I was told that another tau player used it was that ALL wounds go to the drones. So the drones take 12 wounds, the ghostkeel takes zero. That sounds crazy to me. I suppose it does say 'any wounds', but I would expect that once the drones are dead, you can't allocate any more wounds to them.

B: The way I thought most reasonable at the time is that the drones each take a hit. So, of the 4 hits ghaz dealt, 1 went to each drone. So, drone A take a hit, doesn't get a save, and dies, drone B takes a hit, doesn't get a save, and dies, and ghostkeel would take two 6+ saves, and lose 3 wounds for each failure, to a max of 6.

C: The problem with B is that the rule says to reallocate wounds. Not hits. In re-reading the rule, I'm inclined to believe that of the 12 wounds dealt to the ghostkeel, only 2 would be shrugged off to the drones, as they can each only take 1 wound. That doesn't seem as helpful, but does seem in-line with other, similar sacrifice abilities such as unquestioning loyalty.

Last question - seems kind of stupid - in the above example, can drones take a save?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In re-reading the 'allocate wound' step, I'm actually almost entirely sure that example B is the correct way to use savior protocols, which is good, because that's what I did.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/15 15:04:21


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Falling back occurs during the Movement phase. From 'Enemy Models', page 177:

When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

 Ghaz wrote:
Falling back occurs during the Movement phase. From 'Enemy Models', page 177:

When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models.


That's what I thought as well, but the rule you quoted is a bit confusing in this case, because your models are already within 1" of enemy models at the start of the movement phase. How do you follow this rule when you are already breaking it at the start of your turn?

My thought is that you are obligated to get out of 1" of enemy models by the shortest possible means, and stay that way, but I think one could argue that a unit could hug an enemy unit it's already within 1" of, and then break away from it in order to, say, grab and objective behind the enemy unit.

The only thing I'm reasonably certain of that the rule you mentioned is that a falling back unit can't go within 1" of an enemy model it wasn't in combat with at the start of the phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/15 15:13:00


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

If you're falling back, you're moving the model during the Movement phase. Therefore a restriction that applies when you move a model during the Movement phase applies to models which are falling back.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

 Ghaz wrote:
If you're falling back, you're moving the model during the Movement phase. Therefore a restriction that applies when you move a model during the Movement phase applies to models which are falling back.


Here's another question - I attached a diagram. If unit A is within 1" of two models from unit B and at the table's edge, can he fall back? He is already within 1" of enemy models, but he cannot move in any direction that won't immediately take him outside of 1" of an enemy model. Consequently, he may not fall back, even though there are unobstructed paths for him to move and provided his move value is high enough to get him more than 1" from enemy units (ether moving up, down, or to the right)?


[Thumb - diagram.png]

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/09/15 15:31:28


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Okay, the Stepping Into a New Edition document contradicts the main rulebook:

Q: Can units move within 1" of enemy models whilst Falling Back?

A: Yes, but they must end their move more than 1" from all enemy models.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

You by definition have to be able to move within 1" of enemy models while Falling Back, else you couldn't move.

It does lead to the mini-shenanigans in the OP, and yes, they're rules legal RAW and by the FAQ.

There've been a few threads on this already.

Savior Protocols has also had several threads. I'd suggest doing a Search in this subforum and you'll find previous discussions.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

 JohnnyHell wrote:


There've been a few threads on this already.

Savior Protocols has also had several threads. I'd suggest doing a Search in this subforum and you'll find previous discussions.


Oh, sorry about that, let me take a look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ghaz wrote:
Okay, the Stepping Into a New Edition document contradicts the main rulebook:

Q: Can units move within 1" of enemy models whilst Falling Back?

A: Yes, but they must end their move more than 1" from all enemy models.


Ugh, that's just vague enough to open up a hell of a can of worms. Still, a lot of good info in that, never seen it before.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/15 15:51:12


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You by definition have to be able to move within 1" of enemy models while Falling Back, else you couldn't move.

'Within' could mean 'to within', which would allow you to move 'while within' as long as you moved away from the enemy.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 Ghaz wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
You by definition have to be able to move within 1" of enemy models while Falling Back, else you couldn't move.

'Within' could mean 'to within', which would allow you to move 'while within' as long as you moved away from the enemy.


It couldn't, as they've defined what "within" means in one of the publications. It's one of the terms that is pretty cast iron now.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Just accept they wrote a Rule which could not function, and corrected their error within some Designer Commentary.
Sometimes I wonder if we all forget just whom is the Author of this Rule-book actually is - Game Workshop.

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

The savior protocol question is easier to read when you keep in mind that wounds and damage aren't the same thing. Wounds are allocated to the drones, one at a time. How much damage each wound does is immaterial since they become mortal wounds as part of the SP mechanic. So that D3 wounds, when applied to a drone via SP, would instead do a single mortal wound to the drone.

He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






cept its not a D3, its 3 flat my good Fenris.

Yes however, you have to go in order:

Ghaz hits, Ghas rolls to wound and if he does, you allocate wounds one at a time via savior protocols.

So first wound would hit drone, do 3 dmg and kill it, second would do the same, and last 2 would go against the Keel's invulnerable save.

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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Anacortes

Well actually, the FAQ changed Savior protocols. Whenthe ghostkell is hit , wounded, and fails the save, the owning player can choose to allocate the wound to a drone. The WOUND is then passed to a drone, taking the 3 damage which is converted to a mortal wound. Drone only have 1 wound so it dies.

That being said, IF the drone is a shield drone, it gets a 5+to ignore the damage from the mortal wound. Its not passed to the drone before the target tries to save it. Only after the target model fails the save, but before damage is calculated.


In a dog eat dog be a cat. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

It is something I laugh at myself,
I can't help but picture the drone squeezing between the Battlesuit and T'au pilot in order to intercept the shot....
That is what a failed Armour Save means, that shot went through the Armour before it was intercepted by the drone!

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

Have they changed savior protocols?

It used to be you had to transfer the wound before the save.

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 JinxDragon wrote:
It is something I laugh at myself,
I can't help but picture the drone squeezing between the Battlesuit and T'au pilot in order to intercept the shot....
That is what a failed Armour Save means, that shot went through the Armour before it was intercepted by the drone!


No, it means a shot was intercepted before it could damage. We don't roll armour saves for shots that don't wound to save time, but many of those shots could also be intercepted. It's an abstraction involving timesavibg, not literally what you wrote.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

JohnnyHell,
Yes I know the entire system is Abstract, that is what a gaming system is....
Doesn't change the fact we are still making Armour Saves for Model that will not, narrative wise, be Hit at all.

The image makes me laugh because it requires the Drone to hover around waiting till the Armour has a chance to do its thing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/18 17:05:12


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

What armour save? According to the FaQ Tau do not get to make an armour save before allocating the wound to a drone.

That was the trade off. Others get an armour save, but have to roll to see if they can pass off the wound. Tau don't roll but automatically pass it off, but they don't get to make a save.

Andrew

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




SP flow:

1. Roll to hit Keel
2. Roll to Wound Keel
3. Activate SP here (i.e no saves rolled by the Keel)
4. All damage becomes 1 Mortal Wound. 1, 3, D3, D6 regardless become 1 Moral Wound.
5. MW kills drone. No damage splashes over. Shield Drone can 5+ FNP this Mortal Wound.

Note if you shoot directly at the Shield Drone it flows normally. If you hit, wound and pass the invun save of the drone with a D6 shots, it makes D6 FNP rolls.
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior





West Virginia

promithius wrote:
SP flow:

1. Roll to hit Keel
2. Roll to Wound Keel
3. Activate SP here (i.e no saves rolled by the Keel)
4. All damage becomes 1 Mortal Wound. 1, 3, D3, D6 regardless become 1 Moral Wound.
5. MW kills drone. No damage splashes over. Shield Drone can 5+ FNP this Mortal Wound.

Note if you shoot directly at the Shield Drone it flows normally. If you hit, wound and pass the invun save of the drone with a D6 shots, it makes D6 FNP rolls.


What happens if there are more wounds than shield drones? You resolve wounds one at a time, so if the ghostkeel took three wounds could a single shield drone absorb all of them if it keeps making its FNP rolls?
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Sp activates per successful to-wound.

As in, instead of allocating the wound as part of the shooting phase on the keel that wound goes to the drone as 1 mw instead of whatever damage that sucessful to-wound might have caused to the ghostkeel.

All shooting in 8th edition is sequential at step 4.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Derp. Did a derp.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/23 23:00:55


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior





West Virginia

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Sp activates per successful to-wound.

As in, instead of allocating the wound as part of the shooting phase on the keel that wound goes to the drone as 1 mw instead of whatever damage that sucessful to-wound might have caused to the ghostkeel.

All shooting in 8th edition is sequential at step 4.


Thank you! I just needed to get that confirmed.
   
 
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