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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




In what is an apparent suicide by cop an LBGTQ leader was shot and killed yesterday.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/09/17/knife-wielding-campus-pride-leader-killed-by-police-at-georgia-tech/?utm_term=.4b351387070b

There is a video of the incident in the above link and it's also on CNN and a few other sites.

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

Seems like a classic suicide by cop.

They where given multiple chances to put down the weapon and to surnender. They had no stun guns which is probably a thing g that should be issued to campus police.

But they can still under certain circumstances be lethal.

Crappy but I Don, t see this act was a outright murder.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
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The Great State of Texas

Watching the video, the police did everything right. The college student was saying shoot me, had a history of suicide attempts, had a knife, and kept moving at the officers.

Very sad but the police did it right with what they had.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Yeah, this is tragic, and we can go on and on about "why didn't the police have stun guns" or "why didn't they wrestle the kid to the ground and take their knife" but generally I think it was a case of suicide by cop, and that means the person went in with intent to die.

I would say "why do the cops even respond, just let them wander around alone" because that would give the kid time to think and reflect and maybe they'd just decide to go home after a walk. But the kid was clearly disturbing people badly enough that the cops were called in the first place, so it probably was more complicated than 'just a kid with a folded knife wandering around'.
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, this is tragic, and we can go on and on about "why didn't the police have stun guns" or "why didn't they wrestle the kid to the ground and take their knife" but generally I think it was a case of suicide by cop, and that means the person went in with intent to die.
I find it quite odd campus police wouldn't have stun guns. Surely the whole purpose of campus police is to keep students and staff safe, non-lethal forms of subduing would surely be part of that?

Just because someone went in with the intent to die doesn't mean death has to be a foregone conclusion, I'm sure there's many people still kicking in their old age who had failed suicide attempts in their youth.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, this is tragic, and we can go on and on about "why didn't the police have stun guns" or "why didn't they wrestle the kid to the ground and take their knife" but generally I think it was a case of suicide by cop, and that means the person went in with intent to die.
I find it quite odd campus police wouldn't have stun guns. Surely the whole purpose of campus police is to keep students and staff safe, non-lethal forms of subduing would surely be part of that?

Just because someone went in with the intent to die doesn't mean death has to be a foregone conclusion, I'm sure there's many people still kicking in their old age who had failed suicide attempts in their youth.


Tasers don't always work and are (albeit rarely) potentially lethal. They are also short range and would have required being within distance of a possible attack.

While we don't know if the student would have escalated and actually attacked, it's also not really a risk that should be taken.

The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy 
   
Made in us
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Springfield, VA

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, this is tragic, and we can go on and on about "why didn't the police have stun guns" or "why didn't they wrestle the kid to the ground and take their knife" but generally I think it was a case of suicide by cop, and that means the person went in with intent to die.
I find it quite odd campus police wouldn't have stun guns. Surely the whole purpose of campus police is to keep students and staff safe, non-lethal forms of subduing would surely be part of that?

Just because someone went in with the intent to die doesn't mean death has to be a foregone conclusion, I'm sure there's many people still kicking in their old age who had failed suicide attempts in their youth.


I think the reasons campus police don't have stun guns are many and varied.

1) They've not needed them before, and they were one of those 'nice to have but not in the budget' things (until something like this happens, then it'll get another look I imagine)

2) Officers with stun-guns may be more likely to use them, and campus police tazering every drunken reveler is bad for PA. Even cops think before they shoot someone with a real gun, while stun-guns are comparatively "casual".

3) That said, stun-guns can kill. They're called 'stun guns' due to their purpose, but the anatomy and physiology of the individual largely determines their effectiveness, and they can vary widely between "kills someone" and "barely makes them react" depending on the drugs, etc. in the person's system. I imagine this unreliability became a liability when the campus was considering what to arm police with to deal with rowdy college students.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Police did OK from what I can tell. Poor cop will now have the memories of ending a life.

Suicide by cop shootings are justified because no matter how you intend to end the confrontation by non lethal means the crazy might up the ante. Yes a taser could work and is a better resort, but if the crazy really wants to die they might later reach for a gun or pull another weapon.

Suicidal crazies often wont think twice about who they drag with them.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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avoiding the lorax on Crion

yeah, much as police have a vest and training,

a blade can still gi over and into the neck, leathal, or into leg, which can do alot of damage....

the vest only protects the chest area and no the neck or head area,

Police sadly did what they had to. they did not know mental state and could not let a person who a potential danger to others roam campus with a knife.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/18 14:25:15


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






The guy clearly told them: "Shoot me". That is as clear as you could possibly want. He got his wish, just a pity that there is now probably four police officers with a trauma.

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The Great State of Texas

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, this is tragic, and we can go on and on about "why didn't the police have stun guns" or "why didn't they wrestle the kid to the ground and take their knife" but generally I think it was a case of suicide by cop, and that means the person went in with intent to die.
I find it quite odd campus police wouldn't have stun guns. Surely the whole purpose of campus police is to keep students and staff safe, non-lethal forms of subduing would surely be part of that?

Just because someone went in with the intent to die doesn't mean death has to be a foregone conclusion, I'm sure there's many people still kicking in their old age who had failed suicide attempts in their youth.


Except of course, he is a disturbed individual with a knife, on campus. That's a threat to everyone. Public safety requires that be stopped before some coed gets killed. Again the police where repeatedly backing up and doing it right. The lady police officer shot only when he got within striking range.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Made in us
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Gathering the Informations.

 Frazzled wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, this is tragic, and we can go on and on about "why didn't the police have stun guns" or "why didn't they wrestle the kid to the ground and take their knife" but generally I think it was a case of suicide by cop, and that means the person went in with intent to die.
I find it quite odd campus police wouldn't have stun guns. Surely the whole purpose of campus police is to keep students and staff safe, non-lethal forms of subduing would surely be part of that?

Just because someone went in with the intent to die doesn't mean death has to be a foregone conclusion, I'm sure there's many people still kicking in their old age who had failed suicide attempts in their youth.


Except of course, he is a disturbed individual with a knife, on campus. That's a threat to everyone. Public safety requires that be stopped before some coed gets killed. Again the police where repeatedly backing up and doing it right. The lady police officer shot only when he got within striking range.

And there are people who want to carry guns on campus, citing bizarre and rare scenarios like this one...let's not pretend that "public safety" is always the issue at hand here. Suicide by Cop is more likely to happen in an environment where the attacker knows they can get their wish. Deescalation is a thing and it has been shown to work in scenarios like this. The smart play would have been to get civilians away from the area and not confront the guy as directly as was being done here.

Additionally for Skink's comment:
The reason campus police don't have tasers is because, quite frankly, they can't be trusted with them. Tasers have a weird history here in the US thanks to the fact that police and others generally just take the approach of "taze them till they stop moving", which can cause big issues when someone has a heart defect or things of that nature.

I don't know which genius thought it was a good idea to give the campus police(assuming we're actually talking about campus police rather than just local police who are stationed on the campus--which if that's the case, why in the world they didn't have tasers or pepper spray I'll never know) in this scenario anything more deadly than a whistle or pepper spray...hopefully, that genius will be fired though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/18 16:35:16


 
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:

I don't know which genius thought it was a good idea to give the campus police(assuming we're actually talking about campus police rather than just local police who are stationed on the campus--which if that's the case, why in the world they didn't have tasers or pepper spray I'll never know) in this scenario anything more deadly than a whistle or pepper spray...hopefully, that genius will be fired though.


Because many schools in the US have actual police. They're not rent-a-cops. They are Cops. Their jurisdiction just happens to be a school's campus.

And the general rule is that if someone has a deadly weapon you need to match the lethality of their attack.

This dude was both crazy and armed. It's a good shoot.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Eye of Terror

 Kanluwen wrote:

I don't know which genius thought it was a good idea to give the campus police(assuming we're actually talking about campus police rather than just local police who are stationed on the campus--which if that's the case, why in the world they didn't have tasers or pepper spray I'll never know) in this scenario anything more deadly than a whistle or pepper spray...hopefully, that genius will be fired though.


Well, if the student actually hurt someone and the police were only armed with whistles, people would be faulting the college for not arming the police.

We all have 20/20 hindsight. Unfortunately, it's a bad predictor of what's to come.

   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, this is tragic, and we can go on and on about "why didn't the police have stun guns" or "why didn't they wrestle the kid to the ground and take their knife" but generally I think it was a case of suicide by cop, and that means the person went in with intent to die.
I find it quite odd campus police wouldn't have stun guns. Surely the whole purpose of campus police is to keep students and staff safe, non-lethal forms of subduing would surely be part of that?

Just because someone went in with the intent to die doesn't mean death has to be a foregone conclusion, I'm sure there's many people still kicking in their old age who had failed suicide attempts in their youth.


Except of course, he is a disturbed individual with a knife, on campus. That's a threat to everyone. Public safety requires that be stopped before some coed gets killed. Again the police where repeatedly backing up and doing it right. The lady police officer shot only when he got within striking range.

And there are people who want to carry guns on campus, citing bizarre and rare scenarios like this one...let's not pretend that "public safety" is always the issue at hand here. Suicide by Cop is more likely to happen in an environment where the attacker knows they can get their wish. Deescalation is a thing and it has been shown to work in scenarios like this. The smart play would have been to get civilians away from the area and not confront the guy as directly as was being done here.

Additionally for Skink's comment:
The reason campus police don't have tasers is because, quite frankly, they can't be trusted with them. Tasers have a weird history here in the US thanks to the fact that police and others generally just take the approach of "taze them till they stop moving", which can cause big issues when someone has a heart defect or things of that nature.

I don't know which genius thought it was a good idea to give the campus police(assuming we're actually talking about campus police rather than just local police who are stationed on the campus--which if that's the case, why in the world they didn't have tasers or pepper spray I'll never know) in this scenario anything more deadly than a whistle or pepper spray...hopefully, that genius will be fired though.


IN their defense (and here's me defending police) they repeatedly backed up and were attempt to de-escalate. Its terribly sad but he got too close to the female officer and she shot him when he did so, after repeated to back off. This is not a criticism but a question-what would you have done differently to de-escalate?

Again, this is not an attack. How would you de-escalate that further?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/18 17:03:21


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
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On moon miranda.

While I wont comment on the specifics of this case, its worth noting that such incidents are routinely handled by police without fatalites in other nations frequently.

Sometimes the lethal option is required, often it is resorted to because training/mindset/etc simply doesnt cover anything else however.

In this case, I havent had a chance to watch video in full, so cant comment on this incident however.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/18 17:10:00


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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 jhe90 wrote:
yeah, much as police have a vest and training,

a blade can still gi over and into the neck, leathal, or into leg, which can do alot of damage....

the vest only protects the chest area and no the neck or head area,

Police sadly did what they had to. they did not know mental state and could not let a person who a potential danger to others roam campus with a knife.




Perhaps police officers could accept that they have chosen a profession which may force them to risk their own lives.
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, this is tragic, and we can go on and on about "why didn't the police have stun guns" or "why didn't they wrestle the kid to the ground and take their knife" but generally I think it was a case of suicide by cop, and that means the person went in with intent to die.
find it quite odd campus police wouldn't have stun guns. Surely the whole purpose of campus police is to keep students and staff safe, non-lethal forms of subduing would surely be part of that?

Just because someone went in with the intent to die doesn't mean death has to be a foregone conclusion, I'm sure there's many people still kicking in their old age who had failed suicide attempts in their youth.

Remember the "Don't taze me bro!" incident? That's why they're probably not carrying stun guns on campus

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Rosebuddy wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
yeah, much as police have a vest and training,

a blade can still gi over and into the neck, leathal, or into leg, which can do alot of damage....

the vest only protects the chest area and no the neck or head area,

Police sadly did what they had to. they did not know mental state and could not let a person who a potential danger to others roam campus with a knife.




Perhaps police officers could accept that they have chosen a profession which may force them to risk their own lives.


You seem under the impression that means they should just allow crazies to stab them with knives.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, this is tragic, and we can go on and on about "why didn't the police have stun guns" or "why didn't they wrestle the kid to the ground and take their knife" but generally I think it was a case of suicide by cop, and that means the person went in with intent to die.
find it quite odd campus police wouldn't have stun guns. Surely the whole purpose of campus police is to keep students and staff safe, non-lethal forms of subduing would surely be part of that?

Just because someone went in with the intent to die doesn't mean death has to be a foregone conclusion, I'm sure there's many people still kicking in their old age who had failed suicide attempts in their youth.

Remember the "Don't taze me bro!" incident? That's why they're probably not carrying stun guns on campus
amusingly, the dont tase me bro guy now works for Cernovich in florida pushing dingbat Pizza-gate conspiracy theories

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Building a blood in water scent

Different training could help. There's no reason to give a suicidal person their delusional wish.



We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

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The Great State of Texas

Rosebuddy wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
yeah, much as police have a vest and training,

a blade can still gi over and into the neck, leathal, or into leg, which can do alot of damage....

the vest only protects the chest area and no the neck or head area,

Police sadly did what they had to. they did not know mental state and could not let a person who a potential danger to others roam campus with a knife.




Perhaps police officers could accept that they have chosen a profession which may force them to risk their own lives.


And done what differently?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 feeder wrote:
Different training could help. There's no reason to give a suicidal person their delusional wish.




They had shield and fifteen guys.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/18 17:45:54


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
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Birmingham, UK

 Grey Templar wrote:
Rosebuddy wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
yeah, much as police have a vest and training,

a blade can still gi over and into the neck, leathal, or into leg, which can do alot of damage....

the vest only protects the chest area and no the neck or head area,

Police sadly did what they had to. they did not know mental state and could not let a person who a potential danger to others roam campus with a knife.




Perhaps police officers could accept that they have chosen a profession which may force them to risk their own lives.


You seem under the impression that means they should just allow crazies to stab them with knives.


I'm not sure that the police resignedly shrugging their shoulders whilst being stabbed between them is the right answer.

In this case the officers dealt with the situation at hand in a way in which they were trained to with the options given them. Don't think we can blame the individuals involved on this occasion.
   
Made in us
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 feeder wrote:
Different training could help. There's no reason to give a suicidal person their delusional wish.



It's a nice idea, but the next step for the suicide is always to take a swing at the cops. The one after that is to actually stab a cop. Suicidal people aren't stupid, it's an escalating suicide technique designed to get what you want (death) while removing yourself from the user agency. You don't get halfway in, go 'Shucks' and sit down and wait for arrest.

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Made in gb
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Birmingham, UK

 feeder wrote:
Different training could help. There's no reason to give a suicidal person their delusional wish.




Different training needs a different culture, one that is willing to change and adapt. Also it needs a voice to ensure it gets funding - which means political will to change.

   
Made in us
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 ChargerIIC wrote:
 feeder wrote:
Different training could help. There's no reason to give a suicidal person their delusional wish.



It's a nice idea, but the next step for the suicide is always to take a swing at the cops. The one after that is to actually stab a cop. Suicidal people aren't stupid, it's an escalating suicide technique designed to get what you want (death) while removing yourself from the user agency. You don't get halfway in, go 'Shucks' and sit down and wait for arrest.


Personally waiting for tactical knife proof exo suits and net guns.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 ChargerIIC wrote:
 feeder wrote:
Different training could help. There's no reason to give a suicidal person their delusional wish.



It's a nice idea, but the next step for the suicide is always to take a swing at the cops. The one after that is to actually stab a cop. Suicidal people aren't stupid, it's an escalating suicide technique designed to get what you want (death) while removing yourself from the user agency. You don't get halfway in, go 'Shucks' and sit down and wait for arrest.


There is also a question of numbers. Everybody always says that European cops are better at dealing with a crazy with a knife. But every video I see shows a frankly absurd number of officers to do it. At least 5-6, and in one I counted 20+. That's a silly amount to deal with one person. And they're still putting themselves in way more danger than necessary.

And it wouldn't be possible in the US. Our cops have to patrol much larger areas, and while they usually have backup they'd never be able to muster a dozen officers to deal with every knife armed nutter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Desubot wrote:
 ChargerIIC wrote:
 feeder wrote:
Different training could help. There's no reason to give a suicidal person their delusional wish.



It's a nice idea, but the next step for the suicide is always to take a swing at the cops. The one after that is to actually stab a cop. Suicidal people aren't stupid, it's an escalating suicide technique designed to get what you want (death) while removing yourself from the user agency. You don't get halfway in, go 'Shucks' and sit down and wait for arrest.


Personally waiting for tactical knife proof exo suits and net guns.


Net guns definitely aren't a bad idea. You'd still have an armed suspect, but they'd have their mobility limited.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/18 17:58:03


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Hrm, if I can get 4 cars to respond to a noise complaint in the quiet suburbs or San Diego for literally kicking a can of beans around after 10pm in an empty parking lot, with lights and everything, I'm sure sufficient officers in large cities can be brought in

There certainly doesnt appear to be any higher rate of injury amongst officers in places like London or Tokyo that deal with such incidents without resorting to lethal force.

In some places, there may be an argument about police numbers, but not in big cities and major college campuses. The officers of NYPD alone is 2/3rds of the size of the entire German army, and has more officers than the London metropolitan police do.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

I have seen both SWAT and a large group of officers take down persons with knives/swords. One SWAT team used a shield, ladder, and firetruck hose. The other group repeatedly hit the suspect with bean bags and paintballs filled with pepper until he gave up.

Two police by themselves without that equipment?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

I do agree with the cultural change point.

But one can hardly blame the individual officers for that.
   
 
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