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Trying out a new list for competitive play and am working on building the models for it. It consists of 9 trukks, 3 of which contain something important and need to be protected from shooting. I plan to use the old GM trukks as the important ones and hide them behind 6 overbuilt new/converted trucks.

I understand that it will vary from TO to TO but is there any kinda of footnote anywhere describing what is legal conversion wise?

Also due to the current LOS rules am I fighting a losing battle cause anyone can say that they can see a square mm of small trukk under the carriage of the bigger ones?

There are no Rules on what the Models must look like, that will always be between you and the Opponent/Tournament Organizer.

As for Line of Sight, yes:
If unsure, stoop down
and get a look from behind the shooting
model to see if any part of the target is
visible
- 2. Choose Target

 Dr.Duck wrote:


Also due to the current LOS rules am I fighting a losing battle cause some dude can say that he can see a square mm of small trukk under the carriage of the bigger ones?

RaW, yep, since they did away with the rule saying you can't draw LoS through enemy units.

That being said, I would probably avoid playing anyone who was trying to claim they were shooting at a model through the tiny gap between the undercarriage of a model and its base.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Trying out a new list for competitive play and am working on building the models for it. It consists of 9 trukks, 3 of which contain something important and need to be protected from shooting. I plan to use the old GM trukks as the important ones and hide them behind 6 overbuilt new/converted trucks.

I understand that it will vary from TO to TO but is there any kinda of footnote anywhere describing what is legal conversion wise?

Also due to the current LOS rules am I fighting a losing battle cause some dude can say that he can see a square mm of small trukk under the carriage of the bigger ones?

You are trying to gain an advantage by exploiting differing sizes over time of the same type of vehicle. You are then judgy about your opponent following the LOS rules?

Sounds like the literal definition of modelling for advantage. If anything that would encourage me to take full advantage of the lenient LOS rules.

Edit: Differing sizes from an older model is reasonable, you may just get a funny look if taking advantage of it in a deliberate way like that. If you actually converted them to be larger specifically to block line of sight... Different people may respond in different ways, but I'd personally rules lawyer nickel and dime you into submission.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:


Also due to the current LOS rules am I fighting a losing battle cause some dude can say that he can see a square mm of small trukk under the carriage of the bigger ones?

RaW, yep, since they did away with the rule saying you can't draw LoS through enemy units.

That being said, I would probably avoid playing anyone who was trying to claim they were shooting at a model through the tiny gap between the undercarriage of a model and its base.

I agree but im trying to look for tournament potential lists, so odds are I will encounter people like this and I dont blame them. Its just not how I would prefer the LOS rules.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Trying out a new list for competitive play and am working on building the models for it. It consists of 9 trukks, 3 of which contain something important and need to be protected from shooting. I plan to use the old GM trukks as the important ones and hide them behind 6 overbuilt new/converted trucks.

I understand that it will vary from TO to TO but is there any kinda of footnote anywhere describing what is legal conversion wise?

Also due to the current LOS rules am I fighting a losing battle cause some dude can say that he can see a square mm of small trukk under the carriage of the bigger ones?

You are trying to gain an advantage by exploiting differing sizes over time of the same type of vehicle. You are then judgy about your opponent following the LOS rules?

In an edition where its common for armies to get tabled on turns 3 and 4 by shooting armies, of which there are plenty due to enormous advantage shooting has over everything else, I dont think im asking for much to be able to prevent my opponent from shooting at 3 transport vehicles for 1 turn by blocking them with 6 other ones.

With RAW it is currently impossible to block any form of shooting using your own units, I dont think thats how the game should be played, but if thats how it is then fine.

Talinsin wrote:Sounds like the literal definition of modelling for advantage. If anything that would encourage me to take full advantage of the lenient LOS rules.

Edit: Differing sizes from an older model is reasonable, you may just get a funny look if taking advantage of it in a deliberate way like that. If you actually converted them to be larger specifically to block line of sight... Different people may respond in different ways, but I'd personally rules lawyer nickel and dime you into submission.

I agree, but with ork vehicles it is already insanely difficult to shield anything from being shot at using the vehicle to block LOS due to the way the model is designed.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Trying out a new list for competitive play and am working on building the models for it. It consists of 9 trukks, 3 of which contain something important and need to be protected from shooting. I plan to use the old GM trukks as the important ones and hide them behind 6 overbuilt new/converted trucks.

I understand that it will vary from TO to TO but is there any kinda of footnote anywhere describing what is legal conversion wise?

Also due to the current LOS rules am I fighting a losing battle cause some dude can say that he can see a square mm of small trukk under the carriage of the bigger ones?

You are trying to gain an advantage by exploiting differing sizes over time of the same type of vehicle. You are then judgy about your opponent following the LOS rules?

You jump to the conclusion that the OP is specifically modelling his trukks for advantage, simply because he says he's using the newer ones to screen the older ones. Using vehicles to screen other models is a common tactic, and nothing about what he says inherently indicates that he is using the newer ones to screen the others specifically because they're larger, only that he's using the old ones to differentiate his more important units. Hell, he even acknowledges that RaW his trukks can't block fire anyway.

I would judge the crap out of someone for trying to shoot through the tiny gap between the bottom of a vehicle and its base, it's a major TFG move.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Trying out a new list for competitive play and am working on building the models for it. It consists of 9 trukks, 3 of which contain something important and need to be protected from shooting. I plan to use the old GM trukks as the important ones and hide them behind 6 overbuilt new/converted trucks.

I understand that it will vary from TO to TO but is there any kinda of footnote anywhere describing what is legal conversion wise?

Also due to the current LOS rules am I fighting a losing battle cause some dude can say that he can see a square mm of small trukk under the carriage of the bigger ones?

You are trying to gain an advantage by exploiting differing sizes over time of the same type of vehicle. You are then judgy about your opponent following the LOS rules?

You jump to the conclusion that the OP is specifically modelling his trukks for advantage, simply because he says he's using the newer ones to screen the older ones. Using vehicles to screen other models is a common tactic, and nothing about what he says inherently indicates that he is using the newer ones to screen the others specifically because they're larger, only that he's using the old ones to differentiate his more important units. Hell, he even acknowledges that RaW his trukks can't block fire anyway.

I would judge the crap out of someone for trying to shoot through the tiny gap between the bottom of a vehicle and its base, it's a major TFG move.

I mean thats what im trying to do but at the same time trying to maintain good faith in the game and for the opponent. I think its dumb that I would have to essentially model some transports to be so outrageous inorder to protect the ones behind them from on coming fire, and I dont feel that it would be all that much of a TFG move to do so. Thats been a huge tactic for multiple editions and gives factions that need to transport models to the front line a tool to do so.

I dont believe that the RAW on LOS to be intentional, rather simplified for the sake of simplicity, but they have huge ramifications for quite a few factions and make alot of models very poor options at a competitive level.

Again since I am currently aiming to play at a competitive level I personally wouldn't judge a person for sticking with RAW and milking it for everything.

Converting a model for your advantage, i beleave goes one step further than pushing the rules as far as they will go. Everybody has access to the rules so in theory you could plan for most things. Once you start bringing models that nobody could possible plan for it changes things ie you mention a converted truckk to block los until somebody sees that they could never plan for it because there is an infinate way to convert models.

Ive just had an idea for my army, i am going to make some stretch rhinos with huge banners on the side , line them up side ways and depoly my army behind them so if i dont go first my armys protected then i can just turn the rihnos sideways just enough to see my target whislt still blocking los , and i could make some cultist carring banners with slogons on and use them to fill any los angles i missed. Accutaly culist would be even better 100 cultist is 400 points put them on 32mm bases make the banners high and drop all the way to the floor thats apox 3m of los blocking that i can turn to allow my to shot but still block los from loads of units ,i bet if i planned it well i could even kill my target before they could shoot back ,they could be called the activists and there slogans could be

modeling for advantage is wrong

Sorry if that comes across harsh but if you accept a small amount of modeling for advatage in a competion then this could be where it ends up

ian wrote:
Converting a model for your advantage, i beleave goes one step further than pushing the rules as far as they will go. Everybody has access to the rules so in theory you could plan for most things. Once you start bringing models that nobody could possible plan for it changes things ie you mention a converted truckk to block los until somebody sees that they could never plan for it because there is an infinate way to convert models.

Ive just had an idea for my army, i am going to make some stretch rhinos with huge banners on the side , line them up side ways and depoly my army behind them so if i dont go first my armys protected then i can just turn the rihnos sideways just enough to see my target whislt still blocking los , and i could make some cultist carring banners with slogons on and use them to fill any los angles i missed. Accutaly culist would be even better 100 cultist is 400 points put them on 32mm bases make the banners high and drop all the way to the floor thats apox 3m of los blocking that i can turn to allow my to shot but still block los from loads of units ,i bet if i planned it well i could even kill my target before they could shoot back ,they could be called the activists and there slogans could be

modeling for advantage is wrong

Sorry if that comes across harsh but if you accept a small amount of modeling for advatage in a competion then this could be where it ends up

Ok. While I don't disagree with the point. Y'all assuming worst case scenario.

So if ur point is that a opponent can never be prepared for conversions are you then saying that is is fair for ork vehicles to never beagle to block LOS to other ork vehicles due to the shape and design of the model? Cause that's the current situation? I'm not being sarcastic or mean spirited at all. I'm honestly curious if the community thinks this is a legit disadvantage that orks should have if conversions are off the table.

I personaly convert loads of my models and if there has been a disput about anything because of the conversion i go with the less favarable option for me . I think its only imperial tanks that are good at los blocking eldar tanks dont cover much tyrants you can see though there legs same with tau and necrons dont give los either so its not just orks, in a competive enviroment if you find a way to get an advantage somebody will proberly complain and i dont think conversion will stand up to complaints as its normaly down to the orginizer

 Dr.Duck wrote:

ian wrote:
Converting a model for your advantage, i beleave goes one step further than pushing the rules as far as they will go. Everybody has access to the rules so in theory you could plan for most things. Once you start bringing models that nobody could possible plan for it changes things ie you mention a converted truckk to block los until somebody sees that they could never plan for it because there is an infinate way to convert models.

Ive just had an idea for my army, i am going to make some stretch rhinos with huge banners on the side , line them up side ways and depoly my army behind them so if i dont go first my armys protected then i can just turn the rihnos sideways just enough to see my target whislt still blocking los , and i could make some cultist carring banners with slogons on and use them to fill any los angles i missed. Accutaly culist would be even better 100 cultist is 400 points put them on 32mm bases make the banners high and drop all the way to the floor thats apox 3m of los blocking that i can turn to allow my to shot but still block los from loads of units ,i bet if i planned it well i could even kill my target before they could shoot back ,they could be called the activists and there slogans could be

modeling for advantage is wrong

Sorry if that comes across harsh but if you accept a small amount of modeling for advatage in a competion then this could be where it ends up

Ok. While I don't disagree with the point. Y'all assuming worst case scenario.

So if ur point is that a opponent can never be prepared for conversions are you then saying that is is fair for ork vehicles to never beagle to block LOS to other ork vehicles due to the shape and design of the model? Cause that's the current situation? I'm not being sarcastic or mean spirited at all. I'm honestly curious if the community thinks this is a legit disadvantage that orks should have if conversions are off the table.

You don't like the current LoS rule, because it puts you at a disadvantage.
So you want to model for advantage to compensate for it, but are afraid it might not work if people rule layer the LoS rule.
Trying to overcome what you feel is an injustice towards orks doesn't change the fact that modeling for advantage is a pretty dick move.

This isn't new either - in previous editions you could still shoot the trukk behind the other trukk. Only difference is that you would have got a cover save.

It's also not unique to orks. Even for Marines (who have the best vehicles for blocking each other on the rhino) if I can see a storm bolter or something on the top then it's a valid target. Hiding vehicles with other vehicles is extremely difficult now.

I play Orks and run the gorkamorka era trukks that came I. The 1990s 40k Ork army box.

They are about 1" less long, and 1/2" shorter.

It rarely makes a difference but when it does it cuts both ways. Your trukk may not be visible but if it has tankbustas I it and you measure from the trukk to shoot you just lost LOS for them by being in a smaller trukk.

Also should something blow up a trukk in assault and it was in b2b with the old trukks you can't place the passenger models far enough away to not get consolidated into, with the new trukks you can.

Another point to add.

Modeling for advantage only got added to the rulebook because of guys who were TFG. It had to be bad enough that they added ti to the rulebook. This issue shouldn't have been a problem in the first place BUT, TECHNICALLY, TECHNICALLY, IIRC, there isn't a point in therulebook about modeling for advantage any longer.

in any case use your models. nobody can hate on you for using models you paid for even though they are out of date. They are GW legal and aren't even modeled. They just happen to be old and smaller.

There's no rules lawyering or TFGing about drawing LOS. That kind of stuff is unhelpful in a discussion.

If you can see the tiniest part of an enemy model you can shoot, and likely be shot. It's how this edition is. It's not cheating or rule bending to follow the rules in this way.

Sure, it smarts sometimes, but equally you'll benefit at others. Most efforts to hide something will be doomed to fail as it's remarkably easy to draw LOS. It's part of how this edition plays and you have to adapt to it.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Trying out a new list for competitive play and am working on building the models for it. It consists of 9 trukks, 3 of which contain something important and need to be protected from shooting. I plan to use the old GM trukks as the important ones and hide them behind 6 overbuilt new/converted trucks.

I understand that it will vary from TO to TO but is there any kinda of footnote anywhere describing what is legal conversion wise?

Also due to the current LOS rules am I fighting a losing battle cause some dude can say that he can see a square mm of small trukk under the carriage of the bigger ones?

"I plan on modelling for advantage to counteract a basic game rule I don't like. Can anyone help me out with some magic rules text that will help me fight the inevitable TO who tries to rule against me?"

Sigh.

To quote Supreme Court Justice P. Stewart... "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it..." That's sort of how conversions and modelling for advantage work. Is there a clear definition you can use to toe the line? Nope. Will most TO's 'know it when they see it'? Yup.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Trying out a new list for competitive play and am working on building the models for it. It consists of 9 trukks, 3 of which contain something important and need to be protected from shooting. I plan to use the old GM trukks as the important ones and hide them behind 6 overbuilt new/converted trucks.

I understand that it will vary from TO to TO but is there any kinda of footnote anywhere describing what is legal conversion wise?

Also due to the current LOS rules am I fighting a losing battle cause some dude can say that he can see a square mm of small trukk under the carriage of the bigger ones?

You are trying to gain an advantage by exploiting differing sizes over time of the same type of vehicle. You are then judgy about your opponent following the LOS rules?

You jump to the conclusion that the OP is specifically modelling his trukks for advantage, simply because he says he's using the newer ones to screen the older ones. Using vehicles to screen other models is a common tactic, and nothing about what he says inherently indicates that he is using the newer ones to screen the others specifically because they're larger, only that he's using the old ones to differentiate his more important units. Hell, he even acknowledges that RaW his trukks can't block fire anyway.

I would judge the crap out of someone for trying to shoot through the tiny gap between the bottom of a vehicle and its base, it's a major TFG move.

I simply read what he wrote. He stated in the first post that he would overbuild the newer Trukks and use them to screen the older Truks that would have the valuable stuff. I'm not sure how else his post could be interpreted.

As for being TFG for following the LOS rules, I am not sure what to make of that. Just because you don't like a rule it doesn't mean you can ignore it or accuse people of being power gamers for following it.

Since the new trukk is not completely blocking LOS to anything behind (you can always see underneath it), I think this discussion is futile.

 Jidmah wrote:
Since the new trukk is not completely blocking LOS to anything behind (you can always see underneath it), I think this discussion is futile.

Pretty much this.

 Jidmah wrote:
Since the new trukk is not completely blocking LOS to anything behind (you can always see underneath it), I think this discussion is futile.

Agreed, needed simple yes or no. Thread got out of hand with preaching.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


As for being TFG for following the LOS rules, I am not sure what to make of that. Just because you don't like a rule it doesn't mean you can ignore it or accuse people of being power gamers for following it.

If following the rules to the letter and being TFG were mutually exclusive. we wouldn't have the concept of TFG.

Saying, "hey, I looked down from the model's point of view, and I can still see part of your model behind this terrain piece, vehicle, whatever" is just following the LoS rules.

Going, "hey, if I duck down and shine a flashlight through the millimeter gap between the tires of this trukk, the fuel tank, and the steps to the cab I can just barely see a spot of light on your model's left foot, so I can totally kill that entire unit" is pretty TFG.

 Jidmah wrote:
Since the new trukk is not completely blocking LOS to anything behind (you can always see underneath it), I think this discussion is futile.

What happens if OP decides all his larger trucks need fully sick body kits that go right down to the ground? Or he models them all with tank tracks instead of wheels?

Also I think its odd that people are calling using an older GW model "modelling for advantage". Are you saying he should have to replace all his trukks when a new kit is released?

sm3g wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Since the new trukk is not completely blocking LOS to anything behind (you can always see underneath it), I think this discussion is futile.

Also I think its odd that people are calling using an older GW model "modelling for advantage". Are you saying he should have to replace all his trukks when a new kit is released?

No, go ahead and use older GW models - I certainly have 20 year old Predators rumbling around my tabletop.

Seeking to exploit the size difference for advantage to get around a rule, would be modelling for advantage, especially if the larger models are built-up and customized to block even more LOS to the smaller, older Trukks. What else would it be? He is seeking an advantage through the modelling. I see it as an interesting (albeit minor) case of gaming ethics, and I recognize that there are opposing points of view.

I'll stop preaching.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


As for being TFG for following the LOS rules, I am not sure what to make of that. Just because you don't like a rule it doesn't mean you can ignore it or accuse people of being power gamers for following it.

If following the rules to the letter and being TFG were mutually exclusive. we wouldn't have the concept of TFG.

Saying, "hey, I looked down from the model's point of view, and I can still see part of your model behind this terrain piece, vehicle, whatever" is just following the LoS rules.

Going, "hey, if I duck down and shine a flashlight through the millimeter gap between the tires of this trukk, the fuel tank, and the steps to the cab I can just barely see a spot of light on your model's left foot, so I can totally kill that entire unit" is pretty TFG.

Have you read the Tenets of YMDC article?

AnFéasógMór wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


As for being TFG for following the LOS rules, I am not sure what to make of that. Just because you don't like a rule it doesn't mean you can ignore it or accuse people of being power gamers for following it.

If following the rules to the letter and being TFG were mutually exclusive. we wouldn't have the concept of TFG.

Saying, "hey, I looked down from the model's point of view, and I can still see part of your model behind this terrain piece, vehicle, whatever" is just following the LoS rules.

Going, "hey, if I duck down and shine a flashlight through the millimeter gap between the tires of this trukk, the fuel tank, and the steps to the cab I can just barely see a spot of light on your model's left foot, so I can totally kill that entire unit" is pretty TFG.

What is actually the difference there? You either have LoS to any part of the model or you don't.

Hiding models with other models has always been difficult and it's even harder now that LoS is drawn to any part with no exceptions. (the "hull" exceptions are only for drawing LoS from the shooting vehicle)

Technically, we do know the dimensions of models. They are the model as they are sold or have been sold. As long as what you are using for trukks are actual trukks, you are good to go. Both the current trukks and the older GM trukks are legal trukks so you would be okay using those old trukks.

Having said that, if I was a TO and you brought heavily overbuilt trukks for the purpose of shielding the GM trukks, I would likely label that as an attempt to manipulate the spirit of the game and bar you.

 PhillyT wrote:
Technically, we do know the dimensions of models. They are the model as they are sold or have been sold. As long as what you are using for trukks are actual trukks, you are good to go. Both the current trukks and the older GM trukks are legal trukks so you would be okay using those old trukks.

Having said that, if I was a TO and you brought heavily overbuilt trukks for the purpose of shielding the GM trukks, I would likely label that as an attempt to manipulate the spirit of the game and bar you.

I agree with this statement.
The OP is effectively saying that he disagrees with the line of sight rules and intends to convert a model that would not normally block line of sight into a model that will. That's a textbook example of modelling for advantage and is almost universally considered to be A Bad Thing (tm). If he rolled into an event I was running - and an opponent complained, I would rule that his conversion be treated as having the profile of a stock trukk and as such, would not block line of sight.

sm3g wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Since the new trukk is not completely blocking LOS to anything behind (you can always see underneath it), I think this discussion is futile.

What happens if OP decides all his larger trucks need fully sick body kits that go right down to the ground? Or he models them all with tank tracks instead of wheels?

No problem, I'll just deploy my model case as aegis defense line (it even has an Aquila on it!) and then deploy invisible stealth suit models you can never track LOS to

In all seriousness, if you convert your models, I'll congratulate you on your awesome models and just play them for whatever they are.
Outside of it's pretty much impossible to change trukks to completely block line of sight without blatantly adding LOS blocking elements, and I also do believe that it's not possible to do this and still have a decent looking model.
You might have a chance with looted chimeras or rhinos, but units on ruins or knights, nauts, stormsturges or other large models can see over those anyways.

In the end, this is a hypothetical scenario that's not going to happen. The op simply has old and new trukks and the answer to his problems is that new trukks cannot hide anything.

Literally the only problem he has is a bunch of ugly models with mediocre rules.

Also I think its odd that people are calling using an older GW model "modelling for advantage". Are you saying he should have to replace all his trukks when a new kit is released?

No, I'm saying that I wouldn't even bother to argue about it, because it's not even an advantage due to new trukks being unable to hide old trukks.
As long as you can see even the tip of the big shoota, the trukk can be shot. From experience, not even a column of three battlewagons can prevent a single trukk from being shot.

I also believe this kind of discussion pops up twice a year on every WH40k related forum, while I have never met a single ork player with old trukks that even tried to take advantage of them.
There are probably more of these threads than old ork trukks.