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Through my years of playing 40k I have seen all levels of quality when it comes to conversions. Everything from near Golden Daemon standard to Army men used as Ogryn. Where is your personal line in the sand?

Some examples I can think of include using loyalist marines as Chaos Marines. Many have done this with starter boxes to make cheap armies. While technically proxies, I have never heard anyone complain about it, not even in a GW tournament. The same is true if IG players that modeled their guardsmen with autoguns. Also a proxy, Fantasy wytches as Dark Eldar wyches, although I'm still fine with it.

For some reason guys I've talked to draw the line at cult troops. It's "not 1000 sons" if it's just a marine with a bolter painted metallic blue.

Or for those of us with older collections, some people have trouble accepting large combat knives as chainswords.

Don't get me wrong, I don't exactly like having AoS cavalry used as 40k bikers, or an entire army of third party miniatures that barely resemble what they are trying to represent (these Mantic Forge Fathers are Grey Knights).

Where is your personal line?

Space marines fall to chaos all the time. A paint job is more than enough to make them fit in. GW established that as normal with the Red Corsairs.

My line is "could this confuse an opponent during a game?" and "Does it look right/make sense?" So I'm totally fine with fantasy witches as wyches but not fine with a regular chaos marine painted metallic blue. A good ways into the game when there's loads to think about and an opponent could easily just think those are chaos marines and not rubric marines.

For the mantic Forge Fathers I think it's more about picking better rules. I'd probably go with imperial soup and pick units on a case by case basis for each unit. Grey Knights seems really strange for those models.


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Oh, and alternative miniatures should always be painted. If you're going to give your opponent non-standard general appearances they may as well be painted so they can be more easily identified.

I use Khorne Bloodreavers from Age of Sigmar as my Khorne Berzerkers and no one in my play group has complained. I feel that as long as a model is roughly the same size and shape and is an actual model (so no Dixie cups as drop pods) and has roughly equivalent wargear, it should be fine. All that matters is that the opponent can tell what something is, or rather that he can tell each type of unit apart from the others. Since my Berzerkers don't look like anything else I run, they work well.

When it comes to my own proxies, I will admit that I once used a couple Void miniatures in an actual GW tournament once. I made my list and forgot that they weren't GW models. The funny thing is, they looked enough like Catachan models, especially when painted in the same color scheme, that literally no one noticed. I'd say stuff like that is fine too.

For me, the most important thing is the scale.

Not everyone likes Obliterators for instance. And they're a commonly converted/scratch built unit.

Now I'm all for that. But the end product has to be the same rough size as the official models.

For me it's pretty simple:

1) Do they match the size/shape/etc. of the replaced model?
2) Is it a YOLO stand-in model which distracts from the Warhammer aesthetic (read: No, I won't play your My Little Pony army on the table).

I'll be vocal about what I like/don't like if you ask for my opinion though, so that's the only caution I'd give someone.

 cuda1179 wrote:

Or for those of us with older collections, some people have trouble accepting large combat knives as chainswords.

Well, they aren't.

My armies, including such things as Necromunda gangs, are always100% WYSIWYG while at the same time usually using some kind of proxy or miniatures from an other manufacturer. As long as it is obvious what a particular miniature is meant to represent there isn't an issue.

I don't really mind all that much though in practical terms, unless the mess of half built and completely inappropriate miniatures are purely there for beardy purposes. The most egregious example was a Vampire army almost entirely consisting of a Bloodknight deathstar who looked suspiciously like random wolves and horses in various states of disrepair, unpainted of course.

I honestly do not care that much.

You want a Necron force of rocks painted on bases? Fine.
An army of paper folded templates? Whatever you want.
An army of Imperial Assault Storm troopers and rebels as Imperial Guard? Okay by me.

I actually prefer some sort of creative conversion over the armies of grey armless Ultramarines.

 cuda1179 wrote:


For some reason guys I've talked to draw the line at cult troops. It's "not 1000 sons" if it's just a marine with a bolter painted metallic blue.

If someone told me my converted CSM models could not be used as Plague Marines they'll get told to feth off.

 cuda1179 wrote:
using loyalist marines as Chaos Marines.

guardsmen with autoguns.

Fantasy wytches as Dark Eldar wyches

cult troops. It's "not 1000 sons" if it's just a marine with a bolter painted metallic blue.

AoS cavalry used as 40k bikers,
____

or an entire army of third party miniatures that barely resemble what they are trying to represent (these Mantic Forge Fathers are Grey Knights).

OK, I added a line above.

Of all the things you called out it's the use of Mantic miniatures for anything except Mantic's own herpa-derpa games.


Newly-turned Chaos Marines still in Loyalist Armor? No problem! SM Chapters frequently turn to Chaos, but it takes a lot of time to add the spikes and chains.

Autoguns that count as Lasguns, metallic blue Bolters that count as magical Bolters? No problem!

If the player is cool, and the models look nice enough, then play.

CSM as Thousand Sons all depends on context.

If your force is all one colour palette, please don't ask me to spot Unit A, B and C being Thousand Sons, Berzerkers and Plague Marines when the game gets going.

And that's mostly at the crux of the discussion.

Do you have CSM models who (despite paintjob) simply "become" the cult troop of choice because you're bored? That's lazy and would get on my nerves. If you buy CSM minis and paint/build them to be Plague Marines or Berserkers or Thousand Sons = completely fine if they're painted/equipped like what they're supposed to represent.

IOW, apply the "Rule of Cool", and problem solved!

Usability is the key for me. Will my opponent confuse my fantasy undead hounds for anything other than flesh hounds in my otherwise all Khorne army? Probably not.

Alternatively, I remember a person at a tournament had a Disney princess Space Wolf army. Luckily, it consisted of pretty clear designations as to what was what (and 4 unit types, tops), so it wasn't unmanageable, but was closer to having crossed that line than not.

The difference between a conversion/counts-as vs proxy I think is when your "suspension of disbelief is broken."
When you encapsulate the functionality/essence of the model you are trying to represent it is a conversion or "counts-as".
Many separate the conversion/proxy to amount of effort made to represent the intended model.

A few conversations around this line as well:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/558839.page
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/09/brent-asks-be-it-proxy-or-counts-as.html
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/archive/index.php/t-49065.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/6jhv40/question_regarding_conversionsproxies/
https://spikeybits.com/2015/08/proxies-where-do-you-draw-the-line.html

Anyway, rule of cool tends to be a guide with a healthy dose of WYSIWYG.
Hope this helps.

I have some basic rules for the Marine army I'm planning to build, as I can only use my friend's models for so long.

1. Consistency is key. I plan to use Volkite Culvirens as my Grav Cannons, but I'm not gonna have one be a Multi-Melta and another as a Heavy Bolter.
2. Does it make sense to an extent? My Intercessors are gonna be Mk3 Marines holding Boarding Shields, with Combi-Bolters being my Grenade Launcher, as there's no equivalent for 40k. So hopefully that's fine. Maybe someone won't like it, so I just won't use that unit entry if my opponent is that much a whiner.
3. Am I modeling for advantage? Correct base sizes for everything is what I'm gonna do. My Asterion, Lugft, and Tyberos will be Mk3 Marines on the 40mm base and with weapons and wargear that actually make sense. Rest of my HQ will be the same.

A conversion is a conscious effort to represent a unit with a different unit, through different models, bits, paint job, etc.

A proxy is simply using a "close enough" model to represent the proper model.

So, adding bolt pistols to Khorne Bloodreavers is a converstion, because the final product looks like a khorne fighter, and has a pistol and a close combat weapon. A Stormcast model used as a Bullgryn is a proxy, because while they're close, they don't like the intended unit, or a variation on the theme.

I'm going to use a Reaper bones "Mashaaf" as a nurgle daemon. I'm going to add green stuff scars and boils and whatnot.

I was going to use these are Rubic Marines in a Khornate Chaos marine army. You would be hard pushed to find something that looks less like a Rubic marine.

However they were to represent lesser deamon engines (Rubic Marines have the closest rules to robotic infantry thingies) in a Dark Mechanicus army otherwise filled with cultists and deamon engines so perfectly fitting thematically.

@Pseudomas - those aren't Rubric Marines or Daemon engines. Those are very obviously not-Necrons. You might as well use GW Necrons.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
@Pseudomas - those aren't Rubric Marines or Daemon engines. Those are not-Necrons.

Originally yes, but as I said they would fit in well when painted up in red, black and brass and the necronesque markings greenstuffed out. Proxies are entirely about fitting the theme of the overall army and the general concept of the particular unit almost irrespective of their original 'purpose'.

Necrons would look like gak although they may well have seen some use as bits for cultists.

I bet they'd make great dark mechanicus monstrosities. I don't know how big those are, but they might also work as obliterators if they're really big.

Paint scheme and same basing techniques can really tie things together.

If I look at models and they're obviously not-Necrons, then they're not going to pass muster as Rubric Marines, given that I know the fluff states Rubric Marines are just animated suits of SM armor.

If your opponent explains they're playing 1K Sons and that those models represent Rubrics, and you can't hold that thought in your head long enough to complete a game, you need an easier hobby.

Like, I dunno, sitting in a chair staring into space?

Did anyone here say that they couldn't remember it?

Yes, the Wangster there, right above my post. I mean, that's the only way I can see "pass muster" making any sense outside of him being a hobby snob and taking issue with someone else's creative decisions because he disagrees with them.

Hmmm...that's not how I read it at all. You made a pathetic insult based on someone having a differing opinion than you? That's pretty mature. When something doesn't "pass muster" that means you don't like it or it isn't getting the job done.

If he's a hobby snob, what business is that of yours? News for you: none.

Just as much as another persons model choices are anyone else's? Agreed, which is where these threads always devolve, people looking down their noses at the decisions other people have made, for no other reason than they'd have made different ones.

There is literally nothing to be said beyond "as long as its identifiable as its intended thing." Whether you like it or not, whether it "passes muster" is utterly irrelevant. If those PW sculpts were used as Rubrics in a 1K Sons or Chaos army, there's no way they could be confused with anything else, because that's all they'd be representing.

If something like that offends a player's sensibilities so much, then they're free not to play, but that sort of snobbery strikes me as a far worse thing than somebody trying to be creative.


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Oh, and FYI, one man's "pathetic insult" is another man's "tongue in cheek humor" but I guess it all depends on what you wish to project onto the words.

I believe the topic was conversion vs proxy, and the models in question are very clearly proxies, no matter how much conversion work might be done, or how well the execution might be.

While I might play against it, I don't have to accept those models as good proxies, when they are clearly not, and never would be "Rubric Marines". For all intents and purposes, they might as well be generic Army Men spray-bombed blue.

My personal dislike of those particular proxies as poor base of conversion is simply that. To move on to name-calling is unacceptable, and in no way constitutes "tongue in cheek humor" in any way, shape or form. It was intended as, and taken as, an insult, plain and simple.

Doesn't name calling require calling people names? Something which I've clearly not done?