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Kickstarter superbacker has epiphany after dropping $16k on 100+ games in 30 months  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Ranker2 wrote:After 2.5 years of backing over 100+ board game projects, I've finally come to my senses and realized that Kickstarting games is just a losing proposition. At first, kickstarting games felt as if I was part of this insider club with first sneak peeks at board games that the general population wasn't even aware of. I would monitor the KS Roundup almost religiously. As time progressed, I kept kickstarting more and more due to the Fear of Missing Out (FOMO).

I reviewed my KS backed list to take inventory on what has or hasn't been delivered when it hit me: most of the games I had backed are terrible or don't get much play. While there may be a dozen that the board gaming community may agree were successes, it doesn't mean that THAT type of game or genre was something I enjoyed. Going through the list, I was able to count on one hand how many of those 100+ Kickstarted board games I liked.

https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/700jrz/an_epiphany_after_25_years_backing_board_games_on/

FWIW, I reached a somewhat similar conclusion, and sold most of my Kickstarter purchases on eBay. I've kept very little, as it turns out, but I did manage to basically recover the funds I spent on the duds. That's a really good result, IMO.

Most amusingly to me, in the comments, he self-identifies himself as a Warhammer 40k guy, so he might even be on Dakka!

   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





Pittsburgh, PA

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/739780.page

But you get points for posting some text from the article and discussing a bit, while the other OP just dropped it.

OT, addiction can take strange forms, but it's believable.

When I worked for Toys R Us there was a woman who would come in, place lots of high value merchandise on layaway, come back, cancel it (which costs a flat rate or percentage, depending on the value of the layaway), buy some of the things again, and make a new layaway. She would do this one or two times a week. She steadily maintained between 2-4 layaways at any given time. This is in addition to purchasing other merchandise outright frequently. This woman must have spent a thousand dollars a year just on cancellation fees.

After this had gone on for like 2 years, a pattern had been flagged by our corporate office, and our GM had to speak to the woman about her issue and basically ban her from the store. She worked at a business at the other end of the parking lot, so we were probably the one of the nearby readily accessible places to go, which explained the frequency of her visits to our store. I have no doubt that she also carried on with similar behavior at other retail locations.

Addiction (and mental illness) can be very costly indeed, and can express themselves in strange manners.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/19 04:14:41


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





When Kickstarter was still going, I backed a few things. By the time the delivered a year or two later, I was already over them (and that's the ones that eventually did deliver). I now take a hardline No-kickstarters approach - which was initially hard because I couldn't back Thimbleweed Park (Ron Gilbert was a boss of mine once and I respect the heck out of him), but I stand by the decision. I was briefly tempted by the Song of Ice and Fire kickstarter, entirely because I'm bitter I missed out on some Arcadia Quest exclusives when I discovered the game later (the dreaded FOMO). Luckily, the game wasn't enough to convince me in my moment of weakness and I'm now more determined than ever to avoid Kickstarter at all cost. Now, rather than CMON's exclusives convincing me to do their kickstarters, they are convincing me not to invest in their games in the first place. FOMO (Fear of Missing Out) has given way to bitter apprehension and resentment at being exploited, or FU for short.

FOMO. I love that the poster gave it a term. I think it is something that really needs to be exposed. It doesn't just apply to Kickstarters, and I am super susceptible to it. Heck, I saw MongooseMatt mention that the AoS Firestorm expansion could be limited, and my first thought, is holy crap. I need to stalk the GW update like I did with Shadow War. I don't, of course. I'm not even sure I want the thing. But the second it becomes a matter of availability instead of a matter of choice, that part of my brain that makes rational decisions just disappears. I'd say that 90% of my purchasing habits are FOMO and GCEA (Gotta Catch 'Em All - I own complete collections of video and board game series I've never played). Giving it a name makes me aware of it... now.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

I saw it, and decided that it wasn't a good thread, because it didn't tell anybody anything, and the title didn't identify things.

While $16k is a lot for some, it's not necessarily a lot in a GW context. When I look at various hobbies, particularly motorsport and boating, $16k is a tiny downpayment. So it's not necessarily an addiction or out of control, at least, not without a look at his personal finances.

Given how easily he's moved on to just clearing the clutter, I'm not sure hoarding / addiction applies. It's basically that he got carried away and is now dialing it back. The only difference between he and is that he was able to drop more cash than I could afford to.

   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





Pittsburgh, PA

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I saw it, and decided that it wasn't a good thread, because it didn't tell anybody anything, and the title didn't identify things.

While $16k is a lot for some, it's not necessarily a lot in a GW context. When I look at various hobbies, particularly motorsport and boating, $16k is a tiny downpayment. So it's not necessarily an addiction or out of control, at least, not without a look at his personal finances.

Given how easily he's moved on to just clearing the clutter, I'm not sure hoarding / addiction applies. It's basically that he got carried away and is now dialing it back. The only difference between he and is that he was able to drop more cash than I could afford to.


I agree with you about the thread.

The amount of discressionary income one has doesn't matter. We've all spent a lot of money on our hobbies. Did you spend $17000+ on 40k alone in 30 months, not including your other hobbies, and then just leave the models in their boxes, with no intention to use them? Even if you could afford to, would you? Because that's basically what he did. You buy a speedboat or a bike or whatever because you're going to use it. Hell, imagine the time alone you would have to dedicate to managing all that.

Look at the rationalizations he presents. And he didn't just drop that amount of money. He even says that he didn't tally or include the addons. This man willfully purchased thousands and thousands of dollars of merchandise that he knew he would never use, or even had the intention of using. He invented a reason to buy, and now he's likely going to find another outlet for his compulsion, just not on Kickstarter.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/19 04:49:13


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

I know a guy with what is very likely at least $17k worth of sealed GW product that "one day", he intends to do something with.

I don't believe that Ranker bought blindly, without an intention to ever play them. And I didn't get the impression that all of it was gathering dust. He called out a handful of games that he really enjoyed out of the lot, but the simple hoarder story is a lot easier to tell.

   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





Pittsburgh, PA

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I know a guy with what is very likely at least $17k worth of sealed GW product that "one day", he intends to do something with.

I don't believe that Ranker bought blindly, without an intention to ever play them. And I didn't get the impression that all of it was gathering dust. He called out a handful of games that he really enjoyed out of the lot, but the simple hoarder story is a lot easier to tell.


I know is just anecdotal evidence, but having witnessed similar behavior in the past, with what appears to be similar justification (the fear of missing out), I'm inclined to think otherwise. I'm also thinking that someone who makes enough money to be able to justify that sort of expense is likely not going to be spending money like that, justifying it by telling themselves "well this might be the next big thing", without it being a compulsion. What's telling to me is that he talks about how most of the stuff he bought he knew was bad. It's the mentality and volume of buying that's the convincing factor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/19 05:06:14


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

No, only in hindsight, did he realize that Sturgeon's Law applied and 90% of the stuff he bought was crap.

At the time he pledged, he didn't believe any of it would be bad.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Bi'ios wrote:
Did you spend $17000+ on 40k alone in 30 months, not including your other hobbies, and then just leave the models in their boxes, with no intention to use them?

If I'm being truthful, I have. Not $17,000, but maybe half that over two years. I won't say that I had no intention of using all of it, but I absolutely did buy a large majority of it knowing that I would likely wouldn't. For instance, I have a full set of Doomtown: Reloaded cards. That's a few hundred dollars. I've played the game maybe two or three times. I really enjoyed it and hope to commit fully to it one day... but one day just never seems to come around. I honestly bought the cards knowing that it was unlikely - but I still got enjoyment out of collecting them. There are games I have that I actually do play that bring me less joy. But I wish I could say that my Doomtown: Reloaded collection was an anomaly. We all have our vices.

And that's without the highs of a well run Kickstarter campaign. When they are releasing updates and new stretch goals every hour, watching the numbers go up and wondering what new toy will get unlocked next, reading all the comments and sharing the hype with other supporters - yeah, I could totally see being suckered into that. You don't need to have mental issues.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Sqorgar wrote:
And that's without the highs of a well run Kickstarter campaign. When they are releasing updates and new stretch goals every hour, watching the numbers go up and wondering what new toy will get unlocked next, reading all the comments and sharing the hype with other supporters - yeah, I could totally see being suckered into that. You don't need to have mental issues.


Indeed. Lately, I've been tossing a buck at KS campaigns that let me late back to get the updates, or using the reminder feature. Of the half-dozen $1 / reminder games, I've only converted 1 of them to an actual full pledge. The rest, I've just happily written off the buck. The month that you get to coldly decide if it's really worth $100+ is fantastic.

   
Made in us
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander





Ramsden Heath, Essex

It does speak of a problem that you back 100 kickstarters before learning your lesson.

I don't think the money is an issue but we all have pretty much the same amount of time and to a certen extent space. I backed 3 game kickstarters on the basis it looked a good game and a great deal (all Zombiecide Seasons) then Looked at the stack of cardboard boxes I received and figured it was unsustainable.

Now I've played the original Zombiecide plenty but never really used much if the extra stuff (Big Bang Theroy groups games aside!).

How you get to 20, 30, 40 or more before realising that storage will be a problem speaks to me of having a Hoarding condition or some such. Don't get me wrong I have a heap of stuff but that garnered over three decades not three years. There definite dangers in Kickstarters not really any different from other temptations like gambling.

How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

He's better off buying $17k in Kickstarter games, and regretting most of them, than buying a single $17k boat, and regretting that.

$7k a year on games is high, but I'm sure I crack a few grand a year on warhammer, all in.
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Only kickstarter I have done so far is Dark Souls. Thats turning out real well so far. Pretty happy with my purchase.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





East Coast, USA

I haven't Kickstarted anywhere near $16k, but I have done probably $1500 over the last 5 years. That works out to one miniatures heavy game and a few smaller card/board games per year.

I backed Massive Darkness at the basic $120 pledge level. That gives me ~150 models to paint. They're better quality than Reaper Bones, but not what you'd get from GW. The game is also very good and having just received it weeks ago, I've already gotten maybe 6 hours of fun playing it with three other friends. That's 24 hours of fun (6 hours x 4 players) for $120, or $5/hr of entertainment. That's not including the enjoyable time spent painting. Massive Darkness is a massive win.

I also backed Zombicide Season 3 at the $100 level. Played it once and shelved it. Massive fail. These things can be hit or miss.

My "Big Games" were...
1. Zombicide Season 3 - fail
2. Arcadia Quest - win
3. Arcadia Quest Inferno - win
4. Massive Darkness - win
5. Sine Tempore - ??? should get it next year

Overall, I've had a pretty solid run.

Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com


https://www.thingiverse.com/KrisWall/about


Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 notprop wrote:
It does speak of a problem that you back 100 kickstarters before learning your lesson.
I think he was lamenting the quality of the kickstarter games, not necessarily the amount of money he spent of them. I can easily imagine a scenario where he spent just as much on just as many kickstarters, and yet walked away happy as a clam.

The problem is that kickstarter doesn't reward good games. It rewards pretty pictures. You can set up some amazing looking models on a beautifully illustrated board - that's and easy sell. The "value" or whatever is right there in the plastic. Even if the game sucks, you still get 100 miniatures that you already know you want. There's nothing on kickstarter that rewards making good games... and so, most of them aren't very good games. Just pretty ones.

Same with the video game kickstarters. If you can sling some pretty pixels, it doesn't matter how terrible your crappy mobile game plays. One game had three kickstarters before it eventually released (forget what, but it was some sort of Star Trek simulator with nice pixel art). But then, I think the same could be said for most video and board games in general. It's easier to sell an audio-visual experience than it is an interactive, intellectual experience.

How you get to 20, 30, 40 or more before realising that storage will be a problem speaks to me of having a Hoarding condition or some such. Don't get me wrong I have a heap of stuff but that garnered over three decades not three years. There definite dangers in Kickstarters not really any different from other temptations like gambling.
The way Kickstarter is set up to capitalize on FOMO (exclusives! limited time only!) with a variety of shiny baubles being constantly unlocked is definitely exploitative, but I'd compare it more to free to play mobile games with lots of microtransactions than gambling. There's (generally) not a lot of risk in kickstarters, so it is built on the desire for want rather than the thrill of risk. Loot boxes and loot drops are gambling, but there's also things like Train Simulator with $2,000 worth of DLC. Collecting is a temptation, but I'd stop short of calling it an addiction or even a compulsion, and it is certainly not as dangerous as gambling where unfettered involvement ultimately robs you of money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
Only kickstarter I have done so far is Dark Souls. Thats turning out real well so far. Pretty happy with my purchase.
I heard Dark Souls was terrible. It was too grindy or something and needed a lot of house ruling to be enjoyable. Have you played the game extensively? How is it?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/19 14:10:57


 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

A wise woman, who I happen to be married to, said that I buy things like I'm going to live to be 300.

I am trying, with limited success, to pare down my buying and increase my time enjoying the stuff I have.

Alas I have more money than free time these days (which is a lot better than having neither!) and get a fix from buying something new even if I might not open it for weeks.

Worse yet in my pocket I have access to an infinite number of stores including some that are now trained to immediately flag things I would want.

1st world problems.

Even in India.

 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







I freely admit that I enjoy the shopping aspect. I spend only a few hundred a year, but I enjoy the challenge of stretching those dollars, and my collection is enormous and 90% painted. I do have a fair amount of unpainted stuff, but it is small relative to what I have painted. Used is a bit worse of a calculation - I do have figures I have literally never gotten to use in a game. : ( In most cases I've enjoyed collecting and painting them. Kickstarter I've really enjoyed and have had no bad experiences with, though I don't mind delays.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Polonius wrote:
He's better off buying $17k in Kickstarter games, and regretting most of them, than buying a single $17k boat, and regretting that.

$7k a year on games is high, but I'm sure I crack a few grand a year on warhammer, all in.


Indeed. There is a good chance he recovers at least 90% of the $17k worth of KS games if he dumps them all on eBay as 30-day NR auction. With holiday season coming up, he probably makes a 20% profit, but I digress...

If he had just spent $17k on an actual boat, he'd probably have spent quite a bit more since then. The fees and maintenance and other maintenance / storage costs of a boat never stop. There are 2 comments that stick out in my mind about boats:
- the happiest days of a boat are the day you buy it, and the day you sell it.
- when you're out boating, if you can't afford to be throwing $100 bills off the back of it into the water, you probably can't afford it.
I am not a boat person.

Personally, I have largely stopped buying*. The time crunch has gotten me.


*except Kingdom Death. I spent a lot there, no regrets!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/19 17:09:07


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






It's quite easy to fall for the hype while the campaign is ongoing. Then, during the long wait your interest slowly erodes if they haven't been working hard to keep the excitement up. When you've got several in-flight it's hard to conceptualize the amount of space they'll take up when the do arrive. I had a month-long stretch a while back where the stars aligned right and several long-delayed kickstarters came in all at once and I was inundated with games that I no longer cared much about, didn't have space for, and didn't even have people to play with since they were delayed so long.

I used to back tons of kickstarters, some good, some failures, and some still in flight after FAR, FAR too long (I'm looking at you, Mekton Zero, Low Life Minis, and Assimilation Alien Host). I wasted far too much money on stuff I can't even remember why I'm excited about. I shudder to think just how much money I wasted on things I never ended up enjoying. Now, I'm keeping to a policy of only backing things from proven creators, only for sub $100 costs, and only backing things when one of my outstanding KS delivers.

At least the tabletop stuff has been going better for me than the video games. I've had twice as many delays, disappointments, and people just running out of cash and giving up than I had with board games, RPGs, and mini games.

Current Armies
3000 pts
2500pts (The Shining Helms)
XXXX pts (Restart in progress)
500pts
 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






I'm very particular about the kickstarters that I back.

There have been quite a few that I wanted badly but I strongly suspected (correctly) that they could not deliver.

So far everything has been delivered (only three outstanding at the moment and they're going very well) and been great.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
A wise woman, who I happen to be married to, said that I buy things like I'm going to live to be 300.

I am trying, with limited success, to pare down my buying and increase my time enjoying the stuff I have.

Alas I have more money than free time these days (which is a lot better than having neither!) and get a fix from buying something new even if I might not open it for weeks.

Worse yet in my pocket I have access to an infinite number of stores including some that are now trained to immediately flag things I would want.

1st world problems.

Even in India.


I noticed your flag changed!

WRT the budgeting thing, the past few years, I have cut spending down to what I get from sales, so it's net zero dollar spend. That is, I sell stuff, and that money can go back into hobbies, otherwise, I don't buy. It's been very helpful in aligning haves with wants, and very satisfying to no longer have a thing that you don't want. Even though there is an unlimited storefront, managing my hobby spending forces me to be choosy and step back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/19 17:59:46


   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






I've backed about 30, probably in the 3-4k range worth, and board and miniature games are basically a no-go for me anymore. By the time I get the product I've lost interest.

I'm still willing to back graphic novels - usually of webcomics I've followed for free for years - and RPG books. I never regret getting books, and the turnaround is usually quite quick (except for that Infinity RPG, which is taking forever).

I'll back the odd wargaming terrain or small amounts of miniatures if I think they'd be cool to paint, but entire miniature games? Nope. I don't paint fast enough for that.

   
Made in us
Winter Guard



Baltimore, MD

That's a TON of investment. Since 2012, I've backed 56 successful projects for a total of $3025. That includes 2 Bones sets, the big Warmachine chest, and the lastest round of Kingdom Death. That also includes 3 projects that funded and failed to deliver. This guy must have a whole room dedicated to Kickstarter board games.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I enjoy 'stuff' so I'm happy to back things even when I know there's minimal chance of using them

but on the other hand i'd never back something I didn't like the look off just to back something and have walked away from stuff like all the Zombicide games even when I know they contain tons of 'stuff' and often have a pretty good resale value, they just don't scratch that itch right

I also back a fair few projects for a token amount just for the fun of it, to help out if I like the project/company even if the stuff isn't to my taste, or to participate in the comments

I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing

After all I don't splurge on other stuff like

eating out
boozing
fashion (this is a more female issue, but men are getting more vunerable)
flash cars

(I know those who spend many $1000s a year on all of the above, and with the first two the best you get is a decent night and a memory)

or has been mentioned above boats (Not too far down the road is a house with a boat, it's never used that I can see, but has been swapped for a bigger and similarly unused one 3 times in the last 10 years)

I also avoid KS projects that I 'need now' eg to put together an army for a specific tournament, a game I want to give as a Christmas present etc, more often than not you'll be disappointed and mean that even if the stuff is good you won't enjoy it

If it's not fun when you're doing it, not fun while your waiting and disappointing when it arrives, however, you do need to stop (seeking help if nessesary)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/19 20:40:55


 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

I suppose you could call it mental illness. There is a trap that is very easy to fall into, where the enjoyment is in the buying of the thing, rather than in the use of it or even having it.

There is of course a lot of money spent encouraging us all to fall victim to this mentality.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps







Dollars to hours is the name of the game. I enjoy looking at miniatures because I *might* buy them. That requires buying them occasionally to maintain the suspense. I think I'm getting a good return, even on the ones I haven't used (yet).
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Sqorgar wrote:
 Bi'ios wrote:
Did you spend $17000+ on 40k alone in 30 months, not including your other hobbies, and then just leave the models in their boxes, with no intention to use them?

If I'm being truthful, I have. Not $17,000, but maybe half that over two years.


Strong opening bid there!

 Kriswall wrote:
I haven't Kickstarted anywhere near $16k, but I have done probably $1500 over the last 5 years.


 John Prins wrote:
I've backed about 30, probably in the 3-4k range worth,


Forsaken_Poptart wrote:
That's a TON of investment. Since 2012, I've backed 56 successful projects for a total of $3025.


If we go back to 2012, then I'm a little under $3k for 20 Kickstarters, ignoring a half-dozen $1 pledges that I didn't convert (passed on Antsy Labs' Fidget Cube). Of the 20, I'm waiting on 4 of them, and 2 are incomplete. Kingdom Death : Monster 1.5 is the largest undelivered (by far!), whereas Robotech is the farthest overdue with the least progress toward closing (fethers).

Of course, if we look at just the past 30 months, then it's only 5 Kickstarters for $1,300. Because I've been able to sell off the chaff & dross, I feel like it's been a great success overall.

   
Made in kr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
A wise woman, who I happen to be married to, said that I buy things like I'm going to live to be 300.

I am trying, with limited success, to pare down my buying and increase my time enjoying the stuff I have.

Alas I have more money than free time these days (which is a lot better than having neither!) and get a fix from buying something new even if I might not open it for weeks.

Worse yet in my pocket I have access to an infinite number of stores including some that are now trained to immediately flag things I would want.

1st world problems.

Even in India.


That is wise, indeed.
Thanks for sharing that!

   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Thinking about this, while I'm sure the money smarts, the problem isn't the loss of cash. It's the fact that, regardless of price, few people have the time to really enjoy that many games.

I love painting minis, and I have full armies for four different games. But if you just handed me an unpainted army for a new game, free... that doesn't mean it will get used. I've got my Armies on Parade board to work on, and then my Dark Imperium Primaris, and then my Bolt Action Polish Armored, and then the 2nd ed vintage eldar I keep buying, and the AOD dwarves I've been slowly stockpiling, and the same box of space marines that every veteran hobbyist has after a while.

But... once I'm done with those (and sell off yet more stuff)... My hobby schedule is wide open! (Also, some projects are so long term, they don't even get penciled in. I'm looking at you, Gondor themed Kings of War and my pile of Warpath enforcers)

I don't think I'm alone in this. Even for games that don't require painitng, like RPGs or board games, how can you really get the most out of them all?
   
Made in us
Winged Kroot Vulture






I saw the kickstarter thing like going to the casino. It interests me but I just don't have the time or money for such things. Hard enough to buy food and rent and car insurance.

I'm back! 
   
 
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