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So, after the massive defeats I suffered last year during a small tournament (for those who don't remember, see the previous thread here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/704323.page), I took a year-long break from Age of Sigmar, or at least, the gaming side of it. My Death army collected a lot of dust during that year, as I couldn't bring myself to continue working on it.

Things changed when I caught wind of a new mini-tournament that was going to be held in my FLGS, a follow-up to the one I participated in last year. I figured that I wasn't ready to give up on the game just yet, and thus signed up for the tournament. I needed a new list though, as the previous one simply wasn't going to cut it. This time, I went for those other undead skeleton warriors, the good old Tomb Kings. After some intense list-building sessions, I came up with the following list:

Tomb King on Exalted Chariot (General, Master of the Black Arts trait and Cloak of Mists and Shadows artefact)
Tomb King
Liche Priest
Tomb Herald

20 Skeletal Legionnaires
5 Skeleton Horsemen
5 Skeleton Horsemen

Bone Giant

Screaming Skull Catapult

Total: 1500 points

Again, not the greatest list one can run with Tomb Kings, but it allowed me to run a lot of units I liked, like the Bone Giant. The idea was to use the Horsemen to race to objectives/catch enemy heroes by surprise, whilst the Skeleton Warriors held down my objectives (or at least one of them) with the three footslogging heroes. The General was there to buff people/kill fools, the Bone Giant was to be used as a DISTRACTION CARNIFEX that could actually kill things, and the Skull Catapult... I just really wanted to run that thing at least once

The end result?

I got mauled again.

Although I did enjoy it more, and I didn't get mauled as hard as last time (or at least, it didn't feel that way).

I'll go over the three games I played, and talk a bit about the many mistakes I made during them. Afterwards, I'd like to ask you all what your thoughts are on the list, how it could be improved upon and what I should have done during the games to up my chances of winning.

Game 1: Tomb Kings vs Stormcast Eternals - Scorched Earth

The first game pitted my Tomb Kings against Sigmar's own sons, the Stormcast Eternals. Three units of Liberators, an equal amount of Judicators, one unit of Prosecutors and one unit of Retributors took to the field, led by a Lord-Veritant, a Lord-Relictor, a Gryph-Hound, and a Lord-Celestant on Dracoth (the army's General).

The battleplan, Scorched Earth, forced us to stretch our armies out across the entire table edge, as neither of us was willing to take the risk of losing one of our objectives to the enemy. Seeing as my opponent had a lot more units to lock down his objectives at his disposal, I knew from the start that it was going to be an up-hill battle.

As expected, the game immediately went sideways for me. Due to my poor positioning, my opponent was able to Deep Strike his Retributors and General right into my backfield. The Retributors deployed near my leftmost objective, which was being held by nothing more than a single unit of Horsemen. The General decided to pop up near my rightmost objective, which was being guarded by my Bone Giant.

Needless to say, I lost the leftmost objective, the Horsemen disappearing completely after a single strike from the Retributors. The Stormcast General didn't fare as well as his men, however; the Bone Giant made short work of him, sending his soul right back to Sigmar.

After that, I tried to push forward into the enemy objectives with my General, the Horsemen and the Bone Giant, but due to some bad charge rolls they didn't all make it to the enemy when they really needed to. The second unit of Horsemen died, the Bone Giant got tied up by some Stormcast infantry and my General took some hits from the Judicators, but managed to kill the Lord-Veritant before dying to the Lord-Relictor (or the other way around, I don't fully recall), who then died because of the Tomb King's Curse (which I love, by the way).

Meanwhile, the rest of my army was unceremoniously butchered by the Retributors, who chewed through everything in their path. My leftmost objective was claimed by a single Prosecutor, who was lucky enough to survive my Liche Priest's Arcane Bolts, whilst the Retributors popped up whoever was left at my middle objective.

Overall, this game was 'okay', not good, not bad. I made a lot of mistakes, but I learned a lot, and I guess that's the important part. I did feel like the battleplan screwed me over a bit, as my opponent could basically sit back and relax, plopping down units in my backfield to contest my objectives, whilst I was forced to take the fight to a well-entrenched enemy, a fight I was always going to lose.

Game 2: Tomb Kings vs Seraphon - Scorched Earth (again)

Thanks to an unfortunate roll of the dice, the second game used the same battleplan as the first. This time, I was up against the Seraphon, who brought a Bastiladon, a Stegadon, 40 Skinks and 10 Warriors, led by Lord Kroak and a Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur. He was also running a Battalion, which allowed him to teleport some of his units to wherever he wanted.

In short, lots of Monsters, lots of Skinks, the ever-present danger of getting outflanked, and most importantly, ALL THE SHOOTING.

With the last game still fresh in my mind, I deployed my troops more carefully, making sure that the blob of Skinks couldn't teleport behind me. The Screaming Skull Catapult was used as a sacrificial lamb this game, which I hoped would distract the enemy long enough for me to make a move.

I didn't want to engage my opponent's monsters head-on, but I also knew that I had to act quickly if I wanted to gain the upper hand. To this end, I sent my Horsemen out to dislodge the Warriors and Kroak from the leftmost objective, a job they -to my own surprise- nearly succeeded in. However, they were annihilated by the Seraphon's shooting phase before they could finish off the Warriors, which was a bit of a bummer.

Meanwhile, the Bastiladon cheekily incinerated a bunch of my Skeleton Warriors by firing a laser beam through the gatehouse at the center of the board. Also, the Stegadon killed off the Catapult's crew, leaving it completely dead in the water, but luckily still on the objective. Tired of my antics, the Seraphon's General charged forwards, putting my footslogging heroes at risk, whilst the Skinks finally managed to teleport into my backfield. The Skinks finished off the Catapult and claimed the objective, razing it for those sweet victory points. The General then turned its attentions to my heroes, but got intercepted by my own General, who brought him down to one wound. My Tomb Herald then finished the Oldblood off, but thanks to his artefact the Oldblood popped back into existence some distance away only seconds later. He got an Arcane Bolt to the face for his troubles, though.

My General, ultra-pissed at his kill being stolen, decided to vent his rage on the Skinks, who died frighteningly fast. After that, he also killed a Skink hero on top of the gatehouse, but was nearly killed afterwards after realizing he'd made a nice big target of himself. Meanwhile, the surviving Warriors piled into my leftmost objective, razing it before getting mulched by the Bone Giant.

Seeing as I had pretty much nothing left besides a few of my heroes, I decided to concede.

Whilst I did get shot off the board rather hard in this game, I still consider this one to be the best of the three I played. My opponent was a great guy, too, which always adds to the experience. In hindsight, I should have sent my General with the Horsemen to deal with the enemies' objectives, as he's more than capable of holding his own.

Game 3: Tomb Kings vs Blades of Khorne - Two Places of Power (?)

For my last game, I ended up against the same opponent as last year. No two Bloodthirsters this time (thankfully), but a rather well-rounded army of frothing madmen. I didn't really try to play the objectives much, as I knew I didn't really stand much of a chance to begin with, so I went with the only appropriate alternative: charge in and go out in a blaze of (not-)glory!

I mis-judged my charge though, which led to my army standing just inside the charge range of my opponent... with predictable results Highlights of the match include my General inflicting 9 wounds on the enemy Bloodthirster in a single strike (which he promptly healed 4 of), and my Screaming Skull Catapult actually managing to not only hit something, but kill said thing in the process (it was a badly-wounded Khorgorath, but still, it was rather funny).



So, all in all, I did a little better than last time. I'm still looking for a Death army that truly suits me, but I think I'm getting closer to what I'd like to run in a list. Still, I'm no expert on the matter, so any and all input is more than welcome!

So what do you guys think? What points can I improve upon? What could (or should) I change in my list to make it better?

I'm glad to hear you had more fun! That's the most important thing.

Really the things to improve on are the same as last time. You're just not bringing enough models. You only have 3 units that aren't a single model, and even then that's 2 fives and a 20. You spend 780 points on Heroes and only 360 points on multiple model units. You spell it out in your game summaries with how being out numbered was detrimental to you :-) (you were even outnumbered against Stormcast!)

If it was me, I would downsize the Chariot to a Royal Chariot, I would drop the Tomb King on foot and the Tomb Herald, I would replace both units of horseman with units of Chariots and I would spend the rest of the points on more skeletons. (You would be able to up your Skeletons from 20 to 70).

You're just going to have to paint more models if you want to hold your own in Matched Play :-)

Skeleton warriors. As many as you can get. Max out the units. They are undercost by a fair amount before, and now with their additional discount they sit in the top 5% point-efficient unit provided you can maximize their melee contact.

I don't think bringing more Skeleton Warriors would have helped much, to be perfectly honest. The 20 man-unit I brought was pretty much useless in all three games, as I had no other option than to park them on the objective and hope for the best. I naively thought that they'd at least be able to hold that objective for at least a turn or so, but no. In game 1 they were butchered by the Retributors in one turn, in game 2 the majority of them died to the Seraphon's shooting phase and then finished off by their General, and in game 3 they were point-and-click deleted by my opponent's Bloodthirster. Hell, my three footslogging Heroes were more useful than the Warriors were, as they managed to put out at least some damage before they died.

I just don't see the Warriors' appeal, really. I mean sure, once they're buffed they can be somewhat scary, and their regeneration can be annoying, but they die to a stiff breeze unless you bring 40 of them, and even then you can only expect a third of that to make it through the enemy's combat or shooting phase, after which the regeneration becomes largely pointless.

That said, I don't think that I want to run an army like that, either. Bringing legions of skeletons to the field is certainly Death's "thing", so to speak, but there's a big difference between running legions of skeletal units and running the same skeletal unit forever and always. The thought of running three-four blobs of Skeleton Warriors led by one of the four actually useful Death Heroes until GW finally decides to flesh out GA: Death is just incredibly depressing. Death should be more than just the same unit spammed into oblivion, shouldn't it? Otherwise, we might as well remove Black Knights, Grave Guard and some of the other Death units from the game, as no-one will ever take them over the undercosted Warriors.

That's what I've come to love about the Tomb Kings: they actually have options. Want a shooty army? Take Archers, Catapults, hell, take some Horse Archers and go ahead. Want a cavalry army? Chariots and Necropolis Knights, at your service. Want an endless horde of bone? The Skeletal Legionnaires are ready and waiting for you.

Meanwhile, in Grand Alliance: Death, you have the following options: take Skeleton Warriors, or take Skeleton Warriors. Yawn.

My only hope is that one day, Deathrattle, or Death as a whole will have as much options as the Tomb Kings do. But I'm afraid that day won't come anytime soon.


Minor rant aside, I've been thinking about what kind of army I would like to run, and the idea of an undead cavalry army is becoming more and more appealing to me. The idea actually popped into my head during the tournament itself, when one of my opponents told another player how quickly my undead could reach the enemy thanks to my General's ability to double a unit's movement.

The core of the army would be formed by two-three units of Skeleton Horsemen, a unit of Necropolis Knights and the General, who would be charging into the enemy wherever possible. With the General's ability, they would be able to cover a lot more ground rather quickly, which would allow me to put more pressure on my opponents from the get-go. The backfield/objectives could be tied down by a unit of Warriors accompanied by a Tomb King/Liche Priest, or some Skeleton Archers with a Tomb Queen.

How does that sound? It wouldn't be a TAC list, nor a truly 'competitive' list, but I think I could make it work for me.

The elite low model-count undead army doesn't currently exist. There will be a new book soon we hear.

I don't know how well a skeleton horseman list would be. The two units I spam the feth out of in my tomb kings list are chariots and skeleton warriors, because they regen and because 40 skeleton units have an insane number of attacks and are hard to move.

So far I haven't had a real hard time when I use that army, especially now that I get basically a free unit thanks to the new discount to hordes.

 auticus wrote:
The elite low model-count undead army doesn't currently exist. There will be a new book soon we hear.

It kind of does; I've heard that the Soulblight faction fills that niche pretty well, especially when you run a VLoZD with a couple of Blood Knights. I think pure Deathlords would make for a small, but very elite army too.

It's just that there seems to be no middle ground. It's either fielding ten super-elite models, or fielding a hundred worthless ones. I'd like to have a bit of both; a few strong units to deal with the enemy (like the Necropolis Knights), and a few units to hold the fort (like Skeleton Warriors, or Grave Guard/Tomb Guard).

Fwiw, a 40 skeleton unit costs less than two 20 units but is stronger (a lot stronger). I've tested one 40 man verses two 20 man and it was a slaughter.

Sorry, when I say doesn't exist, I mean in a powergaming context. I've never seen anything but the skeleton hordes in a powergaming context do well.

I think Skeleton Horseman are the wrong avenue to persue. Skeleton Chariots give you much more bang for your buck, they hit so much harder (especially on the charge) and have more wounds.

Leaving aside Auticus' comments on spamming Skeleton Warriors, you still need bodies to take objectives and hold ground. You are sinking so much of your points into heroes that don't have any utility because there are no big units to buff with their abilities.

40 wounds at bravery 10 is a lot to chew through, trust me. You want less points on heroes and more on units. The middle ground at 1500 points should be 50+ models still in my opinion.

Necropolis Knights are always a good investment. You might want to include a Necromancer if you take a lot of them.

I hope this helps.

 auticus wrote:
The elite low model-count undead army doesn't currently exist. There will be a new book soon we hear.
.

FEC can do this well with terrorgheists/dragons + horrors as battleline.

 auticus wrote:
Sorry, when I say doesn't exist, I mean in a powergaming context. I've never seen anything but the skeleton hordes in a powergaming context do well.

This particular tournament was won by a friend of mine with an elite Death soulblight army:
List
Bloodknights (5)
Bloodknights (5)
Vampire lord
Vampire lord on zombie dragon
Vargheist (3)
Allies:
5 Dire wolfs
5 Dire wolfs

Was this a regional tournament with a large attendance or a small local affair?

Bottle wrote:I think Skeleton Horseman are the wrong avenue to persue. Skeleton Chariots give you much more bang for your buck, they hit so much harder (especially on the charge) and have more wounds.

Leaving aside Auticus' comments on spamming Skeleton Warriors, you still need bodies to take objectives and hold ground. You are sinking so much of your points into heroes that don't have any utility because there are no big units to buff with their abilities.

40 wounds at bravery 10 is a lot to chew through, trust me. You want less points on heroes and more on units. The middle ground at 1500 points should be 50+ models still in my opinion.

Necropolis Knights are always a good investment. You might want to include a Necromancer if you take a lot of them.

I hope this helps.

The Chariots are pretty good indeed, especially once you buff them, but they don't really fit in with my army's current aesthetic. Chariots just don't look right in an army of undead medieval knights, and I can't think of any appropriate models I could use to proxy them.

Also (and this is one my biggest issues), taking Chariots, or taking multitudes of Skeleton Warriors, would pretty much require me to build up the army from scratch again. My Grave Guard, Archers, Black Knights, the Bone Giant, ... all these units would just end up on the shelves, never to be used again. And in that case, I might as well just buy a different army instead.

So I'd really just like to make the models I already own work for me, which I know is going to be difficult, if not completely impossible.

auticus wrote:Was this a regional tournament with a large attendance or a small local affair?

It was a local affair, with 8-10 attendants, including myself.

Have you considered Path to Glory instead of full tournament Age of Sigmar? I think it might really appeal to you. Units are minimum size as you prefer rather than being big and beefy. Of course you'd have to homebrew tables for TK (or use Deathrattle) but I think it will be right up your street :-)

As for Mathced Play, I understand your plight but you will just have to paint more models or resign yourself to the bottom tables. I have lots of models that only get used in Narrative play now and to improve my Matched play army I took on the advice I am giving you now. Bulk out your units, give yourself a board presence. Look at your model count and wound count. You should be outnumbering most of your opponents but in that event you were outnumbered by all (even Stormcast). Lastly, you need something that can take down enemy heavy hitters like Bloodthirsters, VLOZDs, Stonehorns and other big nasties.

 Bottle wrote:
Have you considered Path to Glory instead of full tournament Age of Sigmar? I think it might really appeal to you. Units are minimum size as you prefer rather than being big and beefy. Of course you'd have to homebrew tables for TK (or use Deathrattle) but I think it will be right up your street :-)

As for Mathced Play, I understand your plight but you will just have to paint more models or resign yourself to the bottom tables. I have lots of models that only get used in Narrative play now and to improve my Matched play army I took on the advice I am giving you now. Bulk out your units, give yourself a board presence. Look at your model count and wound count. You should be outnumbering most of your opponents but in that event you were outnumbered by all (even Stormcast). Lastly, you need something that can take down enemy heavy hitters like Bloodthirsters, VLOZDs, Stonehorns and other big nasties.

All true statements here.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

Bottle wrote:I think Skeleton Horseman are the wrong avenue to persue. Skeleton Chariots give you much more bang for your buck, they hit so much harder (especially on the charge) and have more wounds.

Leaving aside Auticus' comments on spamming Skeleton Warriors, you still need bodies to take objectives and hold ground. You are sinking so much of your points into heroes that don't have any utility because there are no big units to buff with their abilities.

40 wounds at bravery 10 is a lot to chew through, trust me. You want less points on heroes and more on units. The middle ground at 1500 points should be 50+ models still in my opinion.

Necropolis Knights are always a good investment. You might want to include a Necromancer if you take a lot of them.

I hope this helps.

The Chariots are pretty good indeed, especially once you buff them, but they don't really fit in with my army's current aesthetic. Chariots just don't look right in an army of undead medieval knights, and I can't think of any appropriate models I could use to proxy them.

Also (and this is one my biggest issues), taking Chariots, or taking multitudes of Skeleton Warriors, would pretty much require me to build up the army from scratch again. My Grave Guard, Archers, Black Knights, the Bone Giant, ... all these units would just end up on the shelves, never to be used again. And in that case, I might as well just buy a different army instead.

So I'd really just like to make the models I already own work for me, which I know is going to be difficult, if not completely impossible.

auticus wrote:Was this a regional tournament with a large attendance or a small local affair?

It was a local affair, with 8-10 attendants, including myself.

Matched Play isn't balanced. AoS tournaments make this even worse because the focus is on pure cheese to have a shot at winning. It's the unfortunate truth, and one of the reasons I still work to support PPC, so at least a balanced option is out there. I would recommend sticking to casual games outside of tournaments, while Bottle's suggestion of path to glory is a good one. Skirmish, too, is an option.

I'm certainly interested in playing Skirmish or Path to Glory, but the problem is that I don't really have anyone to play against. Pick-up games and campaigns at the FLGS always use Matched Play rules, and I doubt that I'd be able to convince many people to play something else...

This discussion has made me realize something, though. In the end, winning doesn't really matter to me; it's the idea of having a chance of winning the game that's really important to me.

The game against the Seraphon is a good example of this. In the other two games, the outcome was decided from the moment our models hit the table, and every move I made felt like delaying the inevitable. In the second game, I felt like I could actually do something, and that I had a chance (if a rather small one) at winning the game, even with a list as crappy as my one was. My opponent felt the same way; he told me that he saw potential in my list, but that it wasn't quite there yet.

So I'm just going to keep tinkering on my list, regardless of whether it's good or not. All I want out of it is a chance, a chance for a good game, a chance to have some fun with my models, a chance to win a game.

But enough dramatic speeches, I've got lists to write

I've been thinking about the Horsemen-based list some more, and was thinking of the following:

Tomb King on Exalted Chariot
Tomb King

10 Skeleton Horsemen
10 Skeleton Horsemen
20 Skeletal Legionnaires

3 Necropolis Knights

That puts me at 1360 points, and 45 models. I could fill up the remaining points with a unit of Tomb Guard, some Archers, or maybe another Hero, depending on what would be most useful.

Seeing as I don't have two more boxes of Horsemen, nor a box of Necropolis Knights (not yet, anyway), I was thinking of the following list to bridge the gap:

Tomb King on Exalted Chariot
Tomb King

5 Skeleton Horsemen
5 Skeleton Horsemen
20 Skeletal Legionnaires

3 Necropolis Knights

ALLIES
Necromancer

That puts me at 1270 points. The allied Necromancer would give me access to summoning, and to Vanhel's Danse Macabre, which works on both the Horsemen and the Legionnaires (thank Nagash for the Skeleton keyword).

What do you guys think?

"mis post sorry"

necromancer in a TK list would not be allowed at our tournaments (just so you know). it is like playing a sorcerer in a khorne army. Although you could ruleswise we cut out the cheese and non-fluffy lists.. and TK will never side with the followers of Nagash ).

As you already got a lot of very sound advice above.
Just ask yourself the following questions:
How do I deal with big nasty monsters (like thirsters)
How do I deal with shooty lists
How do I deal with artillery based lists
How do I deal with fast shock cavalry lists
How do I deal with hordes
How do I deal with deep strikers
How do I deal with elite infantry
How do i deal with a turtle (Support and shooting behind blocks of meat that become hard to chew through by cheer mass or by the support)
Every list has a backgate so It is normal that you do not have an answer to all these questions. But start by trying to have an answer or tactic to try for most of these. My lists usually have a gap in max 1-2 of the above. and still I have some resolve against it , it will just be an uphill battle but I still stand a chance. You would still be fluffy. It is a general's job to be prepared for the enemy.

Both lists above will do poor against any list dedicated to one of the above.

and btw, having 40 skelletons would have made a difference against that thirster as you would have hit back with 23, and probably finished him off the turn after with your general. I would probably not have charged them in the first place with my thirster as they are quite a bit scarier in such nrs then the 20 who were to use your words : point and click.

 minisnatcher wrote:

Just ask yourself the following questions:
How do I deal with big nasty monsters (like thirsters)
How do I deal with shooty lists
How do I deal with artillery based lists
How do I deal with fast shock cavalry lists
How do I deal with hordes
How do I deal with deep strikers
How do I deal with elite infantry
How do i deal with a turtle (Support and shooting behind blocks of meat that become hard to chew through by cheer mass or by the support)
Every list has a backgate so It is normal that you do not have an answer to all these questions. But start by trying to have an answer or tactic to try for most of these. My lists usually have a gap in max 1-2 of the above. and still I have some resolve against it , it will just be an uphill battle but I still stand a chance. You would still be fluffy. It is a general's job to be prepared for the enemy.

Both lists above will do poor against any list dedicated to one of the above.

To be honest, I don't see how blobs of Skeleton Warriors would be able to deal with all of the above. Monsters eat poor-save-having models for breakfast, shooty lists will just shoot them off the board (or at the very least cripple them), fast shock cavalry can just outmanoeuver them (they won't be able to challenge objectives much, but still), etc.

That said, most armies I've seen thus far weren't dedicated to any of the above, either; they usually brought a mix of things. The Seraphon brought strong shooting, Monsters, and deep-striking all in one list, whilst the Stormcast Eternals had access to deep strike, decent shooting, and strong defensive units. Sure, they wouldn't be able to deal with everything, but I don't think blobs of slow-moving, bad-save-having Skeletons would have been that much of a problem for them (especially in the scenarios we played).

and btw, having 40 skelletons would have made a difference against that thirster as you would have hit back with 23, and probably finished him off the turn after with your general. I would probably not have charged them in the first place with my thirster as they are quite a bit scarier in such nrs then the 20 who were to use your words : point and click.

....which means that bringing 40 skeletons wouldn't have made a difference, as you would have just approached them differently, preferably through shooting/prayers/spells.

Sucks that I can't bring the Necromancer along, though. I mean, surely there are a few Necromancers out there willing to go against their Lord's wishes to gain more power...