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Been quite awhile since I started a thread so I am a little rusty and this is a little all over the place, i'm kinda shooting from the hip, but hopefully you get the idea

After reading Primogenitor (which was a fantastic read and I recommend it whole heartedly) it got me thinking about becoming a Daemon Prince and if it was all that it was cracked up to be for the individual. The guy in Primogenitor is called the Radiant King. The character seems to have something in common with Vandred from Vandred from the Night Lords stories by ADB (again, another cracking set of reads). For both of them they are described as having their old selves locked away in the recesses of their minds and screaming. If you have to lose yourself to become a Prince is it truly a boon? I know that you get fathomless power and are able to bend reality yadda yadda yadda but does the man get to experience this and if he does is it as a passenger. Does it depend on the individual as to how much of themselves they retain. I'm thinking this as look at the Daemon Primarchs, does being warp infused mean that they are already Daemons of a nature.

In Fulgrims case he is possessed but then manages to force the Daemon out. I was happy this happened as it was always a bit odd that a possessed would become a Daemonprince, even though it seemed a bit pointless, anyhoo. After the Daemon is forced out there are a few instances where he experiences visions of Ferrus and his thoughts aren't always clear. One line I think goes along the lines of 'I will get what I want' But you will lose so much This is put down to the Daemon trapped in the painting in La Fenice but could this be Fulgrim warning himself of the dangers of what he is after (I'm inclined to say no, but maybe)

We all know that with Daemon power comes great responsibility ... I mean, in the case of mortals cost! When you become a Daemon you are little more than an extension of your patron Gods will and whims so it has that going against it but that doesn't seem to make much difference to someone seeking power. So does getting closer to your eventual goal mean that the person you once were is pushed to the back as you become more blessed? Is this what mutation actually is and what it eventually leads to (I don't think this is the case but musing here) A champion who seeks Princedom will either reach his goals or become a spawn, both different ends of the spectrum.

In the Siege of Vraks book Cardinal Xaphan is elevated to Daemon Prince by having his soul fused with a Great Unclean One. So is that what princedom is, a kind of possession but from a Greater Daemon? (I don't think so in all cases as it seems more complicated than that) I guess that could be why the Daemon Princes and other princes are able to walk around and not be banished easily due to true mortal names as the Greater Daemon would have its own name.

I've put some responses to my own questions as to how I maybe feel as I've gone on but would like you guys thoughts as well.

I'm sure there are many instances of different Daemonic Pacts that result in apotheosis. Astartes are more sought out due to their already super human physique, and Primarchs due to perverting the Emperors Grand designs.

A bit off topic but, the Daemon Primarch Mortarion was laid down infamously by Draigo when he spoke his True Name that the Emperor has given him.... Thus leads us to believe he has true names for all of his sons, loyal, fallen, and Daemon alike.

Wouldn't it be something for a well researched Chaos Sorcerer to discover some of these names and use them as weapons also.

"Take that Guilliman! Or should I say..... - - - - - - - - -!"

You dont need the chaos gods to become a Daemon Prince, enough power is all it takes, the gods just make it easier.

At its core, being raise to daemonhood involves your being infused with a fragment of a Chaos God. The extent to which that takes over your being and your subsequent standing amongst the blessed of that particular God are contingent however, upon the extent to which your power is based upon that fragment and the size of it.

For example. A Marine Captain is a bloodthirsty killer who happens to land on a world that a Chaos cult is busy thinning the walls of reality at. He goes on a rampage, loses his gak, catches Khorne's attention for an instant, and then gets infused with a tiny fragment of his power as the walls of reality generally collapse.

Such a captain would stand low in the ranks of Khorne's servants, and as virtually all of his warp power is derived from Khorne, he'll retain little independence of thought or will. He's a total puppet.

On the flip side, if the walls were thinned by an Alpha Plus level psyker who sacrificed several hundred million people at the same time to fuel his ascendancy, that psyker might well retain much of his independent power and thought when Tzeentch raises him up. This is because the essence of his soul had a tremendous amount of warp power to begin with, which was further boosted by all the souls he absorbed at the moment of his elevation. Such a psyker would be a minor warp entity in his own right even if a God chooses not to bless him. He accordingly is less subject to the whims and intent of his patron power.

It really all comes down to the proportion of power infused by the Chaos God in relation to your own warp signature. The more powerful you are in your own right, the more independence of thought and will you retain.

 Ketara wrote:
At its core, being raise to daemonhood involves your being infused with a fragment of a Chaos God. The extent to which that takes over your being and your subsequent standing amongst the blessed of that particular God are contingent however, upon the extent to which your power is based upon that fragment and the size of it.

For example. A Marine Captain is a bloodthirsty killer who happens to land on a world that a Chaos cult is busy thinning the walls of reality at. He goes on a rampage, loses his gak, catches Khorne's attention for an instant, and then gets infused with a tiny fragment of his power as the walls of reality generally collapse.

Such a captain would stand low in the ranks of Khorne's servants, and as virtually all of his warp power is derived from Khorne, he'll retain little independence of thought or will. He's a total puppet.

On the flip side, if the walls were thinned by an Alpha Plus level psyker who sacrificed several hundred million people at the same time to fuel his ascendancy, that psyker might well retain much of his independent power and thought when Tzeentch raises him up. This is because the essence of his soul had a tremendous amount of warp power to begin with, which was further boosted by all the souls he absorbed at the moment of his elevation. Such a psyker would be a minor warp entity in his own right even if a God chooses not to bless him. He accordingly is less subject to the whims and intent of his patron power.

It really all comes down to the proportion of power infused by the Chaos God in relation to your own warp signature. The more powerful you are in your own right, the more independence of thought and will you retain.

No it doesnt, as I said before you can become a DP without the Chaos gods, there are myriad examples of this in the background, the most famous of course is Angron, Lorgar made him a Deamon prince, not Khorne, Khorne just claimed him after Lorger had done all the work, the ruin storm, the sacrifice of the 500 worlds, other chaos lords have done the same, the path is easier if you dedicate yourself to the Gods, but its not the only path.

 Formosa wrote:

No it doesnt, as I said before you can become a DP without the Chaos gods, there are myriad examples of this in the background, the most famous of course is Angron, Lorgar made him a Deamon prince, not Khorne, Khorne just claimed him after Lorger had done all the work, the ruin storm, the sacrifice of the 500 worlds, other chaos lords have done the same, the path is easier if you dedicate yourself to the Gods, but its not the only path.

I don't think you're quite following.

Any sufficiently powerful warp entity can impart power, technically, even the Emperor can raise one to 'Daemonhood' *coughlegionofthedamnedcough* Your average joe has no way in which he can strengthen his soul sufficiently to elevate himself to daemonhood however, without the intervention of a Chaos God (or entity, if you're picky). You can only start to do that sort of thing independently if you have a sufficiently strong warp signature that you can then further strengthen yourself through the absorption of other additional warp strength/amplification of your existing power. In the case of Angron, he already had a coherent warp signature (being a Primarch) and the process was directed by Lorgar (who was a powerful psyker). Those aren't exactly normal conditions.

Space Marine Dave with no psychic power would be unable to benefit from you sacrificing 500 billion souls in his name, because you're not a psyker, and neither is he. Likewise, Manufactorum Hab Worker Steve can't do it either, no matter how much he sits there and wishes he was totally a daemon. Both of them would need to either start casting spells (the effects of which are derived from existing powers of Chaos Gods and therefore borrowed power) to achieve the desired effects or rely upon buying enough metaphorical flowers and chocolates for a warp entity that they are infused with some of its power.

If you're a massively powerful psyker in your own right though, you can make attempt to make yourself sufficiently powerful a warp entity in your own right; to the extent that you have a foot in both worlds (ala the Emperor). In most cases though, unwatched psykers just end up with daemons in their head long before they ever reach even the height of their own power, let alone aiming towards daemonhood. Even if they retain a grip on their own soul, they usually end up bat-gak insane.

 Ketara wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

No it doesnt, as I said before you can become a DP without the Chaos gods, there are myriad examples of this in the background, the most famous of course is Angron, Lorgar made him a Deamon prince, not Khorne, Khorne just claimed him after Lorger had done all the work, the ruin storm, the sacrifice of the 500 worlds, other chaos lords have done the same, the path is easier if you dedicate yourself to the Gods, but its not the only path.

I don't think you're quite following.

Any sufficiently powerful warp entity can impart power, technically, even the Emperor can raise one to 'Daemonhood' *coughlegionofthedamnedcough* Your average joe has no way in which he can strengthen his soul sufficiently to elevate himself to daemonhood however, without the intervention of a Chaos God (or entity, if you're picky). You can only start to do that sort of thing independently if you have a sufficiently strong warp signature that you can then further strengthen yourself through the absorption of other additional warp strength/amplification of your existing power. In the case of Angron, he already had a coherent warp signature (being a Primarch) and the process was directed by Lorgar (who was a powerful psyker). Those aren't exactly normal conditions.

Space Marine Dave with no psychic power would be unable to benefit from you sacrificing 500 billion souls in his name, because you're not a psyker, and neither is he. Likewise, Manufactorum Hab Worker Steve can't do it either, no matter how much he sits there and wishes he was totally a daemon. Both of them would need to either start casting spells (the effects of which are derived from existing powers of Chaos Gods and therefore borrowed power) to achieve the desired effects or rely upon buying enough metaphorical flowers and chocolates for a warp entity that they are infused with some of its power.

If you're a massively powerful psyker in your own right though, you can make attempt to make yourself sufficiently powerful a warp entity in your own right; to the extent that you have a foot in both worlds (ala the Emperor). In most cases though, unwatched psykers just end up with daemons in their head long before they ever reach even the height of their own power, let alone aiming towards daemonhood. Even if they retain a grip on their own soul, they usually end up bat-gak insane.

If that were the case then Undivided Princes would not exist at all as they have no patron god and not all are psykers, it basically goes like this, as you fall to Chaos you either learn more to become more powerful or you die as a run of the mill mook, those that rise try to find ways of getting more power, be that the Gods or other means, there are many paths the immortality, the chaos gods just want you to think they are the only means, being a psyker has literally nothing to do with becoming a DP, just makes you more tasty to the gods themselves.

Technically undivided princes don't exist in the new canon, as apparently Be'Lakor is the first, only and last Daemon Prince which is not aligned with a single god.

Lorgar and Perturabo are conveniently forgotten whenever this conflict comes up.

The new lore behind the DPs are....confusing to say the least.

An Undivided Daemon Prince is a Daemon Prince suffused with power from multiple Gods, a Chaos Power other than the Big 4 (Necoho, Malice, etc) or a different warp entity altogether (Gork, the Emperor, etc), or a powerful; psyker who fuelled his own rise. For you to be raised to being a daemon Prince, you need to either be a powerful enough psyker to begin with that you can orchestrate your own ascension or you get sponsored by one of the above. There's no middle ground.

You don't get some normal bloke who just 'happens' to somehow invoke the power of the warp (but no specific warp entity) and then somehow keep doing it until he becomes a Daemon Prince. Drawing a pentagram every time you kill a person doesn't somehow let you absorb their energy. 'Spells' or 'Magic' in the 40K universe work by invoking the power of a patron God or daemon and then giving them something they want in exchange for a desired effect. If you're a blunt, you find a patron to sponsor you, or you go home. You don't just 'fall to Chaos' in some highly vague non-specific sense and somehow grind your way to being a daemon prince by 'learning more'. It's not an MMO where you level up by memorising daemon names or something, and getting a +5 stat boost to your warp power every hundred you manage.

 Ketara wrote:
An Undivided Daemon Prince is a Daemon Prince suffused with power from multiple Gods, a Chaos Power other than the Big 4 (Necoho, Malice, etc) or a different warp entity altogether (Gork, the Emperor, etc). For you to be raised to being a daemon Prince, you need to either be a powerful enough psyker to begin with that you can orchestrate your own ascension or you get sponsored by one of the above. There's no middle ground.

You don't have some normal bloke who just 'happens' to somehow invoke the power of the warp (but no specific warp entity) and then somehow keep doing it until he becomes a Daemon Prince. You don't just draw a pentagram every time you kill a person and somehow absorb their energy. 'Spells' or 'Magic' in the 40K universe work by invoking the power of a patron God or daemon and then giving them something they want in exchange for a desired effect. If you're a blunt, you find a patron to sponsor you, or you go home.

Again thats not true and not supported by the background, anyone can invoke the power of the warp through multiple means, you do not need to be a psyker at all in any way shape or form, yes there are DP's infused by multiple chaos gods, but there are also ones who have had no support from any of them, and yes you can get some normal bloke that murders his way to Princedom, its just extremely unlikely to happen.

 Formosa wrote:

Again thats not true and not supported by the background, anyone can invoke the power of the warp through multiple means, you do not need to be a psyker at all in any way shape or form, yes there are DP's infused by multiple chaos gods, but there are also ones who have had no support from any of them, and yes you can get some normal bloke that murders his way to Princedom, its just extremely unlikely to happen.

I note you invoke the 'background' without actually providing any sources. Throw me a bone that isn't a Primarch (as even the bluntest of them has a coherent warp signature). Show me average non-psyker Space Marine Steve or Guardsman Dave ascending to being a daemon prince, and how they did it. Because I've never heard of any such thing, and I'm interested to hear where you have.

 Ketara wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Again thats not true and not supported by the background, anyone can invoke the power of the warp through multiple means, you do not need to be a psyker at all in any way shape or form, yes there are DP's infused by multiple chaos gods, but there are also ones who have had no support from any of them, and yes you can get some normal bloke that murders his way to Princedom, its just extremely unlikely to happen.

I note you invoke the 'background' without actually providing any sources. Throw me a bone that isn't a Primarch (as even the bluntest of them has a coherent warp signature). Show me average non-psyker Space Marine Steve or Guardsman Dave ascending to being a daemon prince, and how they did it. Because I've never heard of any such thing, and I'm interested to hear where you have.

Ok, Liber chaotica has one, M'Kar also is an undevided DP who wasnt a psyker.

Uraka Az'baramael: Normal fella, slaughtered his way into Khornes favour, not a psyker, became a DP.

Goreclaw: Space marine, Took heads, gained Khornes favour, not a psyker, became a DP.

I could go on with more, but the psyker thing is now debunked, now for undivided DP.

Dhar'leth: Ex Night lords, not a psyker, made himself a DP of chaos undivided, now serves Abbadon in Black legion.

Barban Falk: Ex Iron warrior, not a psyker, sacrificed gene seed to make himself a DP, also undivided.

There are just a few examples, the onus is on you to go find others if you wish, there are some really really good stories out there, I would suggest Iron warrior and any of the Liber Chaotica books if you havent read them, they are really good.

Having checked most of those examples, nearly all of those examples are using fluff more then ten to fifteen years old, and it seems like they are trying to retcon most examples of Undivided Princes when they next get to them.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Having checked most of those examples, nearly all of those examples are using fluff more then ten to fifteen years old, and it seems like they are trying to retcon most examples of Undivided Princes when they next get to them.

Your turn to provide sources for that as im not aware of any retcons concerning any of the ones I have mentioned, in fact Faulk appeared in a HH book only a few years ago (pre prince).

 Formosa wrote:

Ok, Liber chaotica has one, M'Kar also is an undevided DP who wasnt a psyker.

Err....M'Kar was a daemon? Who merged with a mortal? Who happened to be a Dark Apostle, and thus someone who subscribed to worshipping the Chaos 4? And then got granted power by them? So in other words, a mortal who invoked the Dark Gods, got fused with a daemon and then suffused with the power of all four? That's not exactly someone ascending to Daemonhood without any help from the Chaos Gods, is it? Which is what you're arguing?

Uraka Az'baramael: Normal fella, slaughtered his way into Khornes favour, not a psyker, became a DP.

Goreclaw: Space marine, Took heads, gained Khornes favour, not a psyker, became a DP.

I could go on with more, but the psyker thing is now debunked, now for undivided DP.

....both of those were sponsored by Khorne for their ascension? I'm not quite seeing what you're debunking here. I've stated quite explicitly that you need to be either a) a sufficiently powerful psyker to fuel your own independent ascent, or b) sponsored by another Warp entity. I never said you had to be both of those things? Just one?

Dhar'leth: Ex Night lords, not a psyker, made himself a DP of chaos undivided, now serves Abbadon in Black legion.

I can find no information on him or his ascent beyond the fact he was a Night Lord and then a daemon Prince. Can you please tell me how he ascended, or show me a link to how he's a) not a psyker, and b) managed to do it independently of all warp entities?

Barban Falk: Ex Iron warrior, not a psyker, sacrificed gene seed to make himself a DP, also undivided.

I know Falk. And he very explicitly tried to gain sufficient favour of the Chaos 4 so that they'd elevate him. Which they did. So....yeah.....not seeing the link.

There are just a few examples, the onus is on you to go find others if you wish

You literally haven't provided a single verifiable example in support of your claims yet. You're just chucking out random Daemon Prince names. You need to show me a Daemon prince that has ascended to his current position without either a) being a psyker, or b) sponsored by a greater warp entity. You claimed that a normal non-psyker can become a daemon prince without sponsorship of any other warp entities (by just somehow invoking the 'power of the warp'). Prove it.

 Ketara wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Ok, Liber chaotica has one, M'Kar also is an undevided DP who wasnt a psyker.

Err....M'Kar was a daemon? Who merged with a mortal? Who happened to be a Dark Apostle, and thus someone who subscribed to worshipping the Chaos 4? And then got granted power by them? So in other words, a mortal who invoked the Dark Gods, got fused with a daemon and then suffused with the power of all four? That's not exactly someone ascending to Daemonhood without any help from the Chaos Gods, is it? Which is what you're arguing?

Uraka Az'baramael: Normal fella, slaughtered his way into Khornes favour, not a psyker, became a DP.

Goreclaw: Space marine, Took heads, gained Khornes favour, not a psyker, became a DP.

I could go on with more, but the psyker thing is now debunked, now for undivided DP.

....both of those were sponsored by Khorne for their ascension? I'm not quite seeing what you're debunking here. I've stated quite explicitly that you need to be either a) a sufficiently powerful psyker to fuel your own independent ascent, or b) sponsored by another Warp entity. I never said you had to be both of those things? Just one?

Dhar'leth: Ex Night lords, not a psyker, made himself a DP of chaos undivided, now serves Abbadon in Black legion.

I can find no information on him or his ascent beyond the fact he was a Night Lord and then a daemon Prince. Can you please tell me how he ascended, or show me a link to how he's a) not a psyker, and b) managed to do it independently of all warp entities?

Barban Falk: Ex Iron warrior, not a psyker, sacrificed gene seed to make himself a DP, also undivided.

I know Falk. And he very explicitly tried to gain sufficient favour of the Chaos 4 so that they'd elevate him. Which they did. So....yeah.....not seeing the link.

There are just a few examples, the onus is on you to go find others if you wish

You literally haven't provided a single verifiable example in support of your claims yet. You're just chucking out random Daemon Prince names. You need to show me a Daemon prince that has ascended to his current position without either a) being a psyker, or b) sponsored by a greater warp entity. You claimed that a normal non-psyker can become a daemon prince without sponsorship of any other warp entities (by just somehow invoking the 'power of the warp'). Prove it.

Have you read the liber chaotica books?

Yup. Owned all of them at one point. They're also quite explicitly about the now destroyed Warhammer Fantasy Universe (with the occasional vague allusion to the strange soldiers in space armour) so they'd be pretty poor source material for 40K to begin with. If that's all you've got, you really do have no evidence. You're one step away from referencing the vampire Genevieve by talking about the Liber Chaotica. I'm not entirely sure why you'd reference it to begin with, unless you were hoping I hadn't and you could thus handwave me away.

Don't get me wrong, your headcanon is your own, but you explicitly said the background substantiated your view. Yet you've yet to cite a single actual example of a non-psyker reaching daemon princehood in 40K without the help of a warp sponsor. As someone with a shelf full of 40K fiction, I can't recall a single case of such an occurrence. So I'm asking you, since you said that there's loads of examples, to actually give me one.

 Ketara wrote:
Yup. Owned all of them at one point. They're also quite explicitly about the now destroyed Warhammer Fantasy Universe (with the occasional vague allusion to the strange soldiers in space armour) so they'd be pretty poor source material for 40K to begin with. If that's all you've got, you really do have no evidence. You're one step away from referencing the vampire Genevieve by talking about the Liber Chaotica. I'm not entirely sure why you'd reference it to begin with, unless you were hoping I hadn't and you could thus handwave me away.

Don't get me wrong, your headcanon is your own, but you explicitly said the background substantiated your view. Yet you've yet to cite a single actual example of a non-psyker reaching daemon princehood in 40K without the help of a warp sponsor. As someone with a shelf full of 40K fiction, I can't recall a single case of such an occurrence. So I'm asking you, since you said that there's loads of examples, to actually give me one.

no its about the Warp and Chaos in general narrated through the eyes of an old world scolar, if you have read them like you claim, you would know this, as you say, its quite explicit, this has been covered countless times, both universes are connected through the warp and the chaos gods are one and the same (dont know enough about AOS to comment on that), also a lot of its info has been carried over into 40k through other novels, such as referencing the gods as sentient warp storms, which they are and are not.

So lets take what it tells us about chaos, combine that with what 40k has told us (which is functionally identical), this show us that the Chaos are just the most powerful vortexes of emotion in the warp, sucking in lesser vortexes (can be interpreted as "wars"), on top of even that the warp is just a mass of rolling emotion that can be tapped into by wizards and psykers alike, as well as normal humans by other means, such as rituals, sacrifice etc.

The later creates a vortex within the warp of its not NOT connected to any chaos god unless dedicated to them, or claimed by them (absorbing another vortex of emotion), if these are not claimed they can become sentient in there own right and very powerful (examples,Talon of Horus had a deamon that was born of the slaughter of rome IIRC, Drach'nyen being the most famous Deamon created this way). So with this rolling amount of energy being formed in the warp you just need a focus for it, be this a person or an object, this is how a Undivided follower can become a DP, they channel the energy of the warp through themselves from the vortex they have created, the other and more likely way is to be sponsored by the Chaos gods they give a portion of themselves (part of there vortex, which embodies part of the myriad emotions they are made up of).

So before I continue, do you have any issue with any of that?

 Formosa wrote:

no its about the Warp and Chaos in general narrated through the eyes of an old world scolar, if you have read them like you claim, you would know this, as you say, its quite explicit, this has been covered countless times, both universes are connected through the warp and the chaos gods are one and the sam

You're aware that the minute you link both universes, you're entering the realm of headcanon, right? Warhammer Fantasy and 40K are connected in the same way Batman and Judge Dredd are; there are some minor crossover points/nods to each other, but in terms of canon, there's nothing definitive. If you don't believe me on that one, go start another thread on it. You'll find everyone else will happily tell you the answer to 'Are the universes linked' is 'Maybe, kind of, there are hints, but nothing concrete'. It comes down to what you want to think at the end of the day.

The later creates a vortex within the warp of its not NOT connected to any chaos god unless dedicated to them, or claimed by them (absorbing another vortex of emotion), if these are not claimed they can become sentient in there own right and very powerful (examples,Talon of Horus had a deamon that was born of the slaughter of rome IIRC, Drach'nyen being the most famous Deamon created this way). So with this rolling amount of energy being formed in the warp you just need a focus for it, be this a person or an object, this is how a Undivided follower can become a DP, they channel the energy of the warp through themselves from the vortex they have created, the other and more likely way is to be sponsored by the Chaos gods they give a portion of themselves (part of there vortex, which embodies part of the myriad emotions they are made up of).

So before I continue, do you have any issue with any of that?

Firstly, yes. The warp is a separate energy-filled dimension overlaying reality, like an endless ocean facing an endless sky. Like an ocean, the currents within it mimic what's happening above in terms of emotion (tides, currents, etc) and it has warp predators spread throughout it. The two sides however, do not generally interact without a psychic instigator, on account of the fact that being a 'psyker' involves acting as a channel/crossing point for energy from the warp. If a psyker is moving an item with his mind and you shoot him, the item drops. A psyker can infuse an item with warp energy so it no longer requires his active channelling (so an athame, for example), but it still requires that initial conduit. I can kill a billion people to thin the walls of reality, but all that results in is a reduction in the difficulty of channelling warp energy and (maybe if large numbers are killed/suffering) the barest leaking of warp energy into the real world (enough to permit a daemon to temporarily manifest).

Without a psychic capability, no normal person can manipulate that warp energy or summon it though. A person sitting on Terra can draw pentagrams and mutter prayers until the cows come home; they simply have no means or capability to control warp energy. All 'magic' in 40K involves manipulating warp energy yourself (by being a psyker) or making a pact with a warp entity to do it on your behalf in exchange for something. It's not within the realms of possibility that a warp entity might choose to answer your inane mutterings and 'appear' to do something for free, but that's still a warp entity controlling the flow of warp energy; not yourself.

Accordingly, simply suffusing yourself with warp energy is not an option for turning into a daemon prince. You'd explode/turn into a spawn before you'd absorbed a fraction of the warp energy needed to make you a daemon prince. You need some way of directing and focusing that energy, aka, you need to be a top notch psyker in your own right or get a warp patron to do it for you. That's on top of protecting yourself from warp predators, and generating the necessary energy, of course. There's a reason people don't just turn off a geller field mid warp-jump and suddenly all mutate into Daemon Princes, you know?

Anyway, this is all by the by. You told me there were plenty of examples of daemon princes raised through this vague theory of yours out there. You still haven't given me one though. If you can't, don't you think that says everything about what you're arguing?

Pretty sure the answer is no they're definitely not linked seeing as 40k has an active Slaanesh.

 Ketara wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

no its about the Warp and Chaos in general narrated through the eyes of an old world scolar, if you have read them like you claim, you would know this, as you say, its quite explicit, this has been covered countless times, both universes are connected through the warp and the chaos gods are one and the sam

You're aware that the minute you link both universes, you're entering the realm of headcanon, right? Warhammer Fantasy and 40K are connected in the same way Batman and Judge Dredd are; there are some minor crossover points/nods to each other, but in terms of canon, there's nothing definitive. If you don't believe me on that one, go start another thread on it. You'll find everyone else will happily tell you the answer to 'Are the universes linked' is 'Maybe, kind of, there are hints, but nothing concrete'. It comes down to what you want to think at the end of the day.

The later creates a vortex within the warp of its not NOT connected to any chaos god unless dedicated to them, or claimed by them (absorbing another vortex of emotion), if these are not claimed they can become sentient in there own right and very powerful (examples,Talon of Horus had a deamon that was born of the slaughter of rome IIRC, Drach'nyen being the most famous Deamon created this way). So with this rolling amount of energy being formed in the warp you just need a focus for it, be this a person or an object, this is how a Undivided follower can become a DP, they channel the energy of the warp through themselves from the vortex they have created, the other and more likely way is to be sponsored by the Chaos gods they give a portion of themselves (part of there vortex, which embodies part of the myriad emotions they are made up of).

So before I continue, do you have any issue with any of that?

Firstly, yes. The warp is a separate energy-filled dimension overlaying reality, like an endless ocean facing an endless sky. Like an ocean, the currents within it mimic what's happening above in terms of emotion (tides, currents, etc) and it has warp predators spread throughout it. The two sides however, do not interact without a psychic instigator, on account of the fact that being a 'psyker' involves acting as a channel/crossing point for energy from the warp. If a psyker is moving an item with his mind and you shoot him, the item drops. A psyker can infuse an item with warp energy so it no longer requires his active channelling (so an athame, for example), but it still requires that initial conduit. I can kill a billion people to thin the walls of reality, but all that results in is a reduction in the difficulty of channelling warp energy and (maybe if large numbers are killed/suffering) the barest leaking of warp energy into the real world (enough to permit a daemon to temporarily manifest).

Without a psychic capability, no normal person can manipulate that warp energy or summon it though. A person sitting on Terra can draw pentagrams and mutter prayers until the cows come home; they simply have no means or capability to control warp energy. All 'magic' in 40K involves manipulating warp energy yourself (by being a psyker) or making a pact with a warp entity to do it on your behalf in exchange for something. It's not within the realms of possibility that a warp entity might choose to answer your inane mutterings and 'appear' to do something for free, but that's still a warp entity controlling the flow of warp energy; not yourself.

Accordingly, simply suffusing yourself with warp energy is not an option for turning into a daemon prince. You'd explode/turn into a spawn before you'd absorbed a fraction of the warp energy needed to make you a daemon prince. You need some way of directing and focusing that energy, aka, you need to be a top notch psyker in your own right or get a warp patron to do it for you. That's on top of protecting yourself from warp predators, and generating the necessary energy, of course. There's a reason people don't just turn off a geller field mid warp-jump and suddenly all mutate into Daemon Princes, you know?

Anyway, this is all by the by. You told me there were plenty of examples of daemon princes raised through this vague theory of yours out there. You still haven't given me one though. If you can't, don't you think that says everything about what you're arguing?

Its called building a picture Ketara, you should try it some time, I have to do it this way, point by point, as I believe, seeing what you have written so far, that you lack a fundamental understanding of Chaos and the Warp as a whole.

Ok So to continue, given that These vortex's of emotion can be created and enhanced, enlarged etc. by the actions of a mortal, all that needs to happen is for that energy to have a focus, a lodestone as Lorgar put it, this can be achieved through Chaos Undivided as the Vortex is you and not you, its your mirror in the warp and only becomes brighter and more powerful the more you commit to enhancing it through sacrifice, becoming almost a miniature god in its own right, on the flip side the more power you pump into this vortex the more it gains self awareness, and starts looking back, its at this point the Chaos gods are likely to take notice, and we know how that ends. Should this vortex continue to grow it provides all the energy needed (eventually) to make its creator a DP.

The Gods need specific emotions to power them, the ones that lye in the grey area are fought over (the great game is just an analogy of this), The worship of the Pantheon or undivided offers them very little, as its diluted into the warp as a whole, this also explains why it is so hard to even get a Gods attention, even for a second.

So with that established we need to look at one of the examples I have given so far.

Lets start with Barban Falk. Iron Warriors Do NOT worship the Chaos gods, but Faulk was bonded with a Daeamon already, on the planet amon ny shak kaelis, given its description and the character of the Iron Warriors, this was not a deamon of any partucular god, but possibly the mirror of Falk himself, manifested in the warp, this is easy to work out as in Angel Exterminatus it only appears when he enters the eye of terror and only comes to him in times of heightened emotion, lastly combining with him as he is at his emotional Height, also given the way it behaves after the bonding, this is a good conclusion to come to.

Roll on to hydra cordatis, the Warsmith (Falk), sacrifices gene seed to elevate himself to a DP, as he continued to "feed" his dark self (vortex).

All of this is supported by the fluff, and is easy to connect when you take it as a whole, which, no offence, you dont seem to be doing. Now that I have provided an example for you and practically spelled it out, please explain to me how, given what has been explained, DP of chaos undivided become DP as it isnt the Chaos gods doing it.

Aren't daemons a peice of an existing chaos gods power?

 SirDonlad wrote:
Aren't daemons a peice of an existing chaos gods power?

No not all of them, some are created through other means, the most Famous is Drach'nyan, its the echo of the first human on human murder, not aligned with any of the gods, and older than them.

Any sufficiently powerful emotions can produce a Deamon, some Deamons, such as some plaguebearers are created through other means too, for example they are somtimes created through nurgles rot, eventually turning the host into a plaguebearer.

Another in talon of horus was the byproduct of the sacking of Rome, it was Khorne aligned but not created by Khorne, which gels with the "vortex of emotions" that the chaos gods are made up of, all the bloodshed and horror of that event produced enough emotion to make a powerful Deamon, that emotion would have been absorbed by Khorne, so while not created by Khorne, its a Khorne Deamon.

 Formosa wrote:

Its called building a picture Ketara, you should try it some time, I have to do it this way, point by point, as I believe, seeing what you have written so far, that you lack a fundamental understanding of Chaos and the Warp as a whole.

Don't try being sarky, you're not very good at it. Especially given that you just tried to use the Warhammer Fantasy based 'Liber Chaotica' to prove a 40K fluff argument.

Ok So to continue,

So given that I disagree with your fundamental premise, you're going to carry on anyway? That's quite some shovelwork.

given that These vortex's of emotion can be created and enhanced, enlarged etc. by the actions of a mortal, all that needs to happen is for that energy to have a focus, a lodestone as Lorgar put it, this can be achieved through Chaos Undivided as the Vortex is you and not you, its your mirror in the warp and only becomes brighter and more powerful the more you commit to enhancing it through sacrifice, becoming almost a miniature god in its own right, on the flip side the more power you pump into this vortex the more it gains self awareness, and starts looking back, its at this point the Chaos gods are likely to take notice, and we know how that ends. Should this vortex continue to grow it provides all the energy needed (eventually) to make its creator a DP.

This is utterly incoherent and contradictory to the basic established fluff relating to the warp.

The Gods need specific emotions to power them, the ones that lye in the grey area are fought over (the great game is just an analogy of this), The worship of the Pantheon or undivided offers them very little, as its diluted into the warp as a whole, this also explains why it is so hard to even get a Gods attention, even for a second.

Do you have any source at all for this stuff?

Lets start with Barban Falk. Iron Warriors Do NOT worship the Chaos gods, but Faulk was bonded with a Daeamon already, on the planet amon ny shak kaelis, given its description and the character of the Iron Warriors, this was not a deamon of any partucular god, but possibly the mirror of Falk himself, manifested in the warp, this is easy to work out as in Angel Exterminatus it only appears when he enters the eye of terror and only comes to him in times of heightened emotion, lastly combining with him as he is at his emotional Height, also given the way it behaves after the bonding, this is a good conclusion to come to.

Is it? Why? How do you know it wasn't affiliated to any particular God?

We've gone from apparently having multiple examples of non-psykers independently turning themselves into daemon princes to some bizare concept whereby people are making mirror daemons of themselves 'manifested in the warp' which then possess them. Even if I roll with that bizare conclusion to the end, we're still left with a daemon (or warp entity) possessing someone and acting as their conduit for later warp manipulation, and then ascending by invoking the four major Chaos Powers.

I mean, that's hardly someone independently raising themselves to Daemon Prince status by 'invoking the power of the warp' (as you originally claimed). How on earth does that begin to substantiate your original statements?

All of this is supported by the fluff, and is easy to connect when you take it as a whole, which, no offence, you dont seem to be doing. Now that I have provided an example for you and practically spelled it out,

I've been reading Warhammer fiction for a decade, and what you're saying sounds like absolute gobbledegook to me. That might be a sign that your interpretation of the fluff isn't quite as obvious as you're making out.

please explain to me how, given what has been explained, DP of chaos undivided become DP as it isnt the Chaos gods doing it.

It's quite boring and simple really. No strange alternate self mirror daemons involved at all.

A person is raised to being a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided when they attract the attention and endorsement of all 4 Major Chaos Powers simultaneously (although I suppose one could get the attention of alternative Chaos Gods, like Necoho, Malice, and Tzeentch at the same time or something instead). We know that Chaos Gods co-operate from time to time to further their aims; it is within reason that a person can be infused with warp power from multiple sources. Horus and Abbadon were blessed by all four, after all. Where Abbadon refuses to ascend no matter how many times it is offered however, another person (like Falk above) may well seek it out. Given that it would likely grant a greater degree of independence than being beholden to a specific God, I can see the attraction.

 Formosa wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
Aren't daemons a peice of an existing chaos gods power?

No not all of them, some are created through other means, the most Famous is Drach'nyan, its the echo of the first human on human murder, not aligned with any of the gods, and older than them.

Any sufficiently powerful emotions can produce a Deamon, some Deamons, such as some plaguebearers are created through other means too, for example they are somtimes created through nurgles rot, eventually turning the host into a plaguebearer.

Another in talon of horus was the byproduct of the sacking of Rome, it was Khorne aligned but not created by Khorne, which gels with the "vortex of emotions" that the chaos gods are made up of, all the bloodshed and horror of that event produced enough emotion to make a powerful Deamon, that emotion would have been absorbed by Khorne, so while not created by Khorne, its a Khorne Deamon.

Just had a read of the wikia of Drach'nyan - trippy stuff and quite cool, i'll bet the writer had a rubbing hands moment over source material!
Whats the jazz with the daemon needing the 'agreement' of the chaos gods in order to possess a human?

 SirDonlad wrote:
Aren't daemons a peice of an existing chaos gods power?

It depends.

The Big Four Chaos Gods aren't the only warp entities, you see. On top of them you have Malal/Malice, Necoho, the Emperor, Gork, Mork, Cegorach, and more (there are even fragments of Khaine slopping around the place). Drach'nyen, for example, is another warp entity that existed independently of the Big Four; he's just not quite powerful enough to be classed as a God. If you peruse the fluff, even Eldar souls stay coherent as independent warp entities after death.

When a warp entity is sufficiently powerful, they appear to be able to detach portions of their power however, and either imbue other existing entities (warp or physical) with it, or give it a consciousness of its own. That's how you get the smaller daemons that are aligned with a specific God, but there are plenty of other smaller warp entities (or daemons) that aren't attached to the Big Four.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SirDonlad wrote:

Whats the jazz with the daemon needing the 'agreement' of the chaos gods in order to possess a human?

It's likely because the Big Four were screwing around with Humanity quite extensively at that point. Getting involved in a play that the Big Four are intensely interested in in a manner that hacks them off could well prove lethal for a smaller, weaker entity. So it just makes sense to ensure that they're cool with what you're doing before you do it.

 Ketara wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Its called building a picture Ketara, you should try it some time, I have to do it this way, point by point, as I believe, seeing what you have written so far, that you lack a fundamental understanding of Chaos and the Warp as a whole.

Don't try being sarky, you're not very good at it. Especially given that you just tried to use the Warhammer Fantasy based 'Liber Chaotica' to prove a 40K fluff argument.

Ok So to continue,

So given that I disagree with your fundamental premise, you're going to carry on anyway? That's quite some shovelwork.

given that These vortex's of emotion can be created and enhanced, enlarged etc. by the actions of a mortal, all that needs to happen is for that energy to have a focus, a lodestone as Lorgar put it, this can be achieved through Chaos Undivided as the Vortex is you and not you, its your mirror in the warp and only becomes brighter and more powerful the more you commit to enhancing it through sacrifice, becoming almost a miniature god in its own right, on the flip side the more power you pump into this vortex the more it gains self awareness, and starts looking back, its at this point the Chaos gods are likely to take notice, and we know how that ends. Should this vortex continue to grow it provides all the energy needed (eventually) to make its creator a DP.

This is utterly incoherent and contradictory to the basic established fluff relating to the warp.

The Gods need specific emotions to power them, the ones that lye in the grey area are fought over (the great game is just an analogy of this), The worship of the Pantheon or undivided offers them very little, as its diluted into the warp as a whole, this also explains why it is so hard to even get a Gods attention, even for a second.

Do you have any source at all for this stuff?

Lets start with Barban Falk. Iron Warriors Do NOT worship the Chaos gods, but Faulk was bonded with a Daeamon already, on the planet amon ny shak kaelis, given its description and the character of the Iron Warriors, this was not a deamon of any partucular god, but possibly the mirror of Falk himself, manifested in the warp, this is easy to work out as in Angel Exterminatus it only appears when he enters the eye of terror and only comes to him in times of heightened emotion, lastly combining with him as he is at his emotional Height, also given the way it behaves after the bonding, this is a good conclusion to come to.

Is it? Why? How do you know it wasn't affiliated to any particular God?

We've gone from apparently having multiple examples of non-psykers independently turning themselves into daemon princes to some bizare concept whereby people are making mirror daemons of themselves 'manifested in the warp' which then possess them. Even if I roll with that bizare conclusion to the end, we're still left with a daemon (or warp entity) possessing someone and acting as their conduit for later warp manipulation, and then ascending by invoking the four major Chaos Powers.

I mean, that's hardly someone independently raising themselves to Daemon Prince status by 'invoking the power of the warp' (as you originally claimed). How on earth does that begin to substantiate your original statements?

All of this is supported by the fluff, and is easy to connect when you take it as a whole, which, no offence, you dont seem to be doing. Now that I have provided an example for you and practically spelled it out,

I've been reading Warhammer fiction for a decade, and what you're saying sounds like absolute gobbledegook to me. That might be a sign that your interpretation of the fluff isn't quite as obvious as you're making out.

please explain to me how, given what has been explained, DP of chaos undivided become DP as it isnt the Chaos gods doing it.

It's quite boring and simple really. No strange alternate self mirror daemons involved at all.

A person is raised to being a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided when they attract the attention and endorsement of all 4 Major Chaos Powers simultaneously (although I suppose one could get the attention of alternative Chaos Gods, like Necoho, Malice, and Tzeentch at the same time or something instead). We know that Chaos Gods co-operate from time to time to further their aims; it is within reason that a person can be infused with warp power from multiple sources. Horus and Abbadon were blessed by all four, after all. Where Abbadon refuses to ascend no matter how many times it is offered however, another person (like Falk above) may well seek it out. Given that it would likely grant a greater degree of independence than being beholden to a specific God, I can see the attraction.

You have been snarky from the start

And you have basically proven my point in all you comments so far, you lack a basic understanding of how Chaos works and the Warp, you keep trying to dismiss Liber Chaotica, which you have been told repeatedly had been referenced in 40k, prior to those books being written the warp had not been explored or fleshed out in such a way, since they have been written nearly every single reference to said warp has correlated to what it has said about the subject, your a skeptic, I get that, this is why I am going over everything bit by bit, to educate you and show you how this stuff works, as again, you are showing a clear lack of understanding of the subject matter.

1: I carried on as I was half way through an explanation, again you tried to derail it, I ignored your weak attempt to bait me into diverting from my explanation.

2: No it is not "This is utterly incoherent and contradictory to the basic established fluff relating to the warp." it draws from the established fluff, if you read it like you claim, you would recognise this.

3: "Do you have any source at all for this stuff?"
another clear example that you dont really understand what you are talking about, this is one of the central tenets of how chaos works, the gods are made up of emotions as well as souls.

4: "Is it? Why? How do you know it wasn't affiliated to any particular God?"
Simply as it demonstrated no "god" specific abilities or tempermant, based on the info we have had over those books, this is a good conclusion to come to, if you disagree please explain why.

5: "We've gone from apparently having multiple examples of non-psykers independently turning themselves into daemon princes to some bizare concept whereby people are making mirror daemons of themselves 'manifested in the warp' which then possess them. Even if I roll with that bizare conclusion to the end, we're still left with a daemon (or warp entity) possessing someone and acting as their conduit for later warp manipulation, and then ascending by invoking the four major Chaos Powers."
Again you seem not to grasp the whole picture and can only see the small part of it, the examples exist, you have tried to ignore some I have given you, thats fine, it just shows that all you have done is read Lexicanum or one of the other sites and not the actual fluff in the books. To your second point there, yet another example of lack of understanding, you even go on later to explain to someone else that deamons exist outside of the gods, and yet here claim it must be a god, and your calling me contradictory....


6: "I mean, that's hardly someone independently raising themselves to Daemon Prince status by 'invoking the power of the warp' (as you originally claimed). How on earth does that begin to substantiate your original statements?"
They create the vortex, check, they draw from the vortex, check, the vortex empowers them, check, eventually the vortex they have made it strong enough to allow them to assend, so all of this is done by the individual, using the warp, they have asended themselves, not the gods, they are likely to associate it with the gods in ignorance. So its still invoking the power of the warp to get the power they want.

7: to your last point I dont disagree on the whole, there are many means to Deamonhood, you just seem fixated on a few of them.

 Ketara wrote:
At its core, being raise to daemonhood involves your being infused with a fragment of a Chaos God. The extent to which that takes over your being and your subsequent standing amongst the blessed of that particular God are contingent however, upon the extent to which your power is based upon that fragment and the size of it.

So with each action and deed you're chipping away at your soul until you have enough of it gone for the hole to be filled with a piece of the Chaos God. Or each chip is filled up with small pieces until they are all dug out and replaced, which is ascension, or mushed together so you become a spawn. I guess that would explain why the likes of Vandred and the Radiant King were lost to themselves as the blessings and Chaos Influence took over. Much like Horus in the end. so really it is a kind of possession.

 Formosa wrote:

No it doesnt, as I said before you can become a DP without the Chaos gods, there are myriad examples of this in the background, the most famous of course is Angron, Lorgar made him a Deamon prince, not Khorne, Khorne just claimed him after Lorger had done all the work, the ruin storm, the sacrifice of the 500 worlds, other chaos lords have done the same, the path is easier if you dedicate yourself to the Gods, but its not the only path.

I would argue here that Lorgars incantation was attracting the attention of Khorne much like Fulgrims ritual on Iydris. Lorger did all the graft, but without Khornes attention Angron would not have ascended. The murder of the 500 worlds was all part of the ceremony.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:


The new lore behind the DPs are....confusing to say the least.

Indeed, is Perturabo even a Daemon Prince now? I don't see why he wouldn't be but as we have established, if not old, fluff to say he is. But I got the feeling from the Death Guard Codex that he wasn't. Just from the way the battle between them went. No mention of 2 might Daemon Princes or anything.

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
Aren't daemons a peice of an existing chaos gods power?

No not all of them, some are created through other means, the most Famous is Drach'nyan, its the echo of the first human on human murder, not aligned with any of the gods, and older than them.

Any sufficiently powerful emotions can produce a Deamon, some Deamons, such as some plaguebearers are created through other means too, for example they are somtimes created through nurgles rot, eventually turning the host into a plaguebearer.

Another in talon of horus was the byproduct of the sacking of Rome, it was Khorne aligned but not created by Khorne, which gels with the "vortex of emotions" that the chaos gods are made up of, all the bloodshed and horror of that event produced enough emotion to make a powerful Deamon, that emotion would have been absorbed by Khorne, so while not created by Khorne, its a Khorne Deamon.

Just had a read of the wikia of Drach'nyan - trippy stuff and quite cool, i'll bet the writer had a rubbing hands moment over source material!
Whats the jazz with the daemon needing the 'agreement' of the chaos gods in order to possess a human?

Deamons dont need the agreement of a mortals or gods to possess anything that I am aware of, however IIRC it creates a better bond and thus a more powerful Possessed host.

Off the top of my head though there are several types of Possessed.

Gal Vorbak: This is a literal bonding of both the Deamon and the Hosts soul, rather than one consuming the other, the Deamon tried to find the best host possible and if it doenst find one, it kills the prospective host, or leaves it an empty shell, should the deamon find the perfect host then the process seems to take more time for the bonding, though this could just be it biding its time, the end result is a much more powerful possessed marine than the current 40k ones.

Deamonhost: the forceful, or not, possession of the deamon on a host, by an outside force, so for example a Deamon Prince called Cherubael was bound to a host body but not of its own will, this creates differing levels of power in the Deamonhost, but all are still incredibly powerful.

Possessed space marine: This one is a bit sketchy on details, there seems to be several ways for it to happen, a Deamon is bound to the dead body of a space marine, a space marine willingly allows a Deamon to possess him, but this is not the same method of possession as the Gal Vorbak, as its any deamon with no care about the host, the last one I am aware of is the binding of a deamon to a marine and the marine winning the battle of wills and either expelling the deamon (but retaining some of its power) or overpowering the deamon and being in control of its power.

Psyker possession: this is your bulk standard horror scenario.

Mundane Possession: A normal human or other xenos that is possessed unwillingly.

 Formosa wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:


Just had a read of the wikia of Drach'nyan - trippy stuff and quite cool, i'll bet the writer had a rubbing hands moment over source material!
Whats the jazz with the daemon needing the 'agreement' of the chaos gods in order to possess a human?

Deamons dont need the agreement of a mortals or gods to possess anything that I am aware of, however IIRC it creates a better bond and thus a more powerful Possessed host.

Off the top of my head though there are several types of Possessed.

Gal Vorbak: This is a literal bonding of both the Deamon and the Hosts soul, rather than one consuming the other, the Deamon tried to find the best host possible and if it doenst find one, it kills the prospective host, or leaves it an empty shell, should the deamon find the perfect host then the process seems to take more time for the bonding, though this could just be it biding its time, the end result is a much more powerful possessed marine than the current 40k ones.

Deamonhost: the forceful, or not, possession of the deamon on a host, by an outside force, so for example a Deamon Prince called Cherubael was bound to a host body but not of its own will, this creates differing levels of power in the Deamonhost, but all are still incredibly powerful.

Possessed space marine: This one is a bit sketchy on details, there seems to be several ways for it to happen, a Deamon is bound to the dead body of a space marine, a space marine willingly allows a Deamon to possess him, but this is not the same method of possession as the Gal Vorbak, as its any deamon with no care about the host, the last one I am aware of is the binding of a deamon to a marine and the marine winning the battle of wills and either expelling the deamon (but retaining some of its power) or overpowering the deamon and being in control of its power.

Psyker possession: this is your bulk standard horror scenario.

Mundane Possession: A normal human or other xenos that is possessed unwillingly.

Cool, cheers for that, it does still leave me in the dark a bit on that specific 'agreement' with the chaos gods thing, but very intresting nonetheless - i appreciate how much of a pita it is to write up quotes/info of any length when on a forum.
i come at this from a point of ignorance, not having read any of the books or even owning any of the black library and the whole 'daemons not needing permission to possess' kinda complicates the setting given the story of Drach'nyan - i think ketara might be on the money with the heirarchical dominance structure theory, but the stuff available on the web just leaves it underexplained and raises the question of why the big four don't just assimilate it as soon as it introduces itself.

I'd love to input, but without the relevant books i'm munching popcorn on the sidelines and shouting at the referee..