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Say your opponent had a flier with supersonic that does not have the luxury of hover pointed in the direction of a board edge and minimum movement would take it off the board. Also say that you managed a full b2b surround during assault of the flier with one or more units with the fly keyword. Would the flier be unable to make it's pivot before moving and be forced to fly off the board or would it be able to move as normal and stay in play? I am also assuming the flier has a oval base similar to a Corvus or Hemlock and not a circle base if there are any fliers that use those.

There are no facings in 8th Edition - the flyer can just move sideways to escape.

Thommy H wrote:
There are no facings in 8th Edition - the flyer can just move sideways to escape.

While there are no general facings for vehicles, supersonic flyers have to fly in a straight line and can only pivot once before moving (and a second time at the end of the movement for Eldars).
The front of the flyer isn't defined in the rules, but common sense makes it pretty clear.

@OP: As a unit with the fly keyword, a flyer can jump over other models and terrain during its movement, it just have to end its move more than 1" away from any enemy model. I would say the initial pivot move is part of the whole movement sequence, and the fly keyword grants it permission to move over enemy models when pivoting.

fresus wrote:

@OP: As a unit with the fly keyword, a flyer can jump over other models and terrain during its movement, it just have to end its move more than 1" away from any enemy model. I would say the initial pivot move is part of the whole movement sequence, and the fly keyword grants it permission to move over enemy models when pivoting.

I agree. Pivoting is part of the move.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

fresus wrote:

@OP: As a unit with the fly keyword, a flyer can jump over other models and terrain during its movement, it just have to end its move more than 1" away from any enemy model. I would say the initial pivot move is part of the whole movement sequence, and the fly keyword grants it permission to move over enemy models when pivoting.

I agree. Pivoting is part of the move.

Damn, guess operation Gargoyle is DOA then.

Perhaps, when someone is trying to manhandle the rules in such a way that they decide to swamp the base of my flyer with ground-pounders, I would lift the flyer off its base (i mean, what rule definition applies to most bases anyways?) pivot it, measure, move, pick up the base and flying stand, place the base, replace the flyer on the stand. Just to manhandle the manhandlers... ;-)

There's no mechanic in the rules to allow you to stop a Flyer pivoting. Even an oval-based mini can ignore other models whilst moving. The whole "surround so it can't pivot" is not a thing, as the FLY keyword rules nix that as a plan.

Not a tactic.

It is not possible.

We need to really stop this 'jump over' description the Rule is:
If the datasheet for a model says it can FLY, it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there.

It isn't moving over the Terrain or Units, it is moving across them as if they didn't exist at all... straight, horizontal, movement.
If Models with Fly move as if other Models are not there, what prevents the supersonic Models from pivoting as part of that Movement?

I played a game recently and the oppo put his flyer right at the edge of the board in such a position that he could just about do a 90 degree turn and move 20 " to put himself on another edge.

I had an evil thought, if I stuck some units at where he wanted to end up after his 20", would he have been forced to go off the edge of the board?

I didn't particularly want the argument in my local shop as I'm a new player, and the game wasn't going well for him anyhow, but I do believe it would have been a good move.

I will try a diagram (flyer is at the *) lines are board edge

|
|
|
|________*__

next turn

|*
|
|
|___________

If it turns out a flyer cannot make it's minimum move, for whatever reason, it dies.

Keep in mind, though, doing so probably wouldn't have killed his flyer, just changed his plans, since he could always turn 90 degrees in the other direction and fly, or not pivot at all. So unless you somehow blocked off every possible place he could make a 20" move in such a way that he had to fly off the table, he'd be fine.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Keep in mind, though, doing so probably wouldn't have killed his flyer, just changed his plans, since he could always turn 90 degrees in the other direction and fly, or not pivot at all.

Flyers with the 'Supersonic' rule must pivot on the spot up to 90 degrees before moving straight forward.

 Ghaz wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Keep in mind, though, doing so probably wouldn't have killed his flyer, just changed his plans, since he could always turn 90 degrees in the other direction and fly, or not pivot at all.

Flyers with the 'Supersonic' rule must pivot on the spot up to 90 degrees before moving straight forward.

Well zero degrees isn't above 90, right? Unless I'm misunderstanding your point - not pivoting is still an option by my understanding.

Yes, 0 degrees is up to 90 degrees.

Yep - if the flyer was positioned poorly it's possible for the enemy to place his troops so the flyer can't be placed after it's compulsory move, meaning dead flyer.

Larks wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Keep in mind, though, doing so probably wouldn't have killed his flyer, just changed his plans, since he could always turn 90 degrees in the other direction and fly, or not pivot at all.

Flyers with the 'Supersonic' rule must pivot on the spot up to 90 degrees before moving straight forward.

Well zero degrees isn't above 90, right? Unless I'm misunderstanding your point - not pivoting is still an option by my understanding.

That 1⁰ through 89⁰ is an option as well, not just 90⁰ or not at all.

 Ghaz wrote:

Larks wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Keep in mind, though, doing so probably wouldn't have killed his flyer, just changed his plans, since he could always turn 90 degrees in the other direction and fly, or not pivot at all.

Flyers with the 'Supersonic' rule must pivot on the spot up to 90 degrees before moving straight forward.

Well zero degrees isn't above 90, right? Unless I'm misunderstanding your point - not pivoting is still an option by my understanding.

That 1⁰ through 89⁰ is an option as well, not just 90⁰ or not at all.

0 degrees is still less than 90 degrees. Pivoting not at all is a perfectly acceptable way to pivot your flyer.

Where did I say it wasn't?

 Ghaz wrote:
Where did I say it wasn't?

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought it was in the line, "1-89 degrees is an option but 90 or not at all isn't."

Did I misunderstand you?

 Octopoid wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Where did I say it wasn't?

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought it was in the line, "1-89 degrees is an option but 90 or not at all isn't."

Did I misunderstand you?

What you're saying I said is NOT what I wrote.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Where did I say it wasn't?

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought it was in the line, "1-89 degrees is an option but 90 or not at all isn't."

Did I misunderstand you?

What you're saying I said is NOT what I wrote.

...apparently, I'm misunderstanding you. Let's straighten this out.

Do you believe that pivoting 0 degrees, i.e. not pivoting at all, is an acceptable way for a flyer to pivot, yes or no?

Again, what did I write? It clearly says whether I believe a Flyer can pivot 90⁰ or not at all.

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, what did I write? It clearly says whether I believe a Flyer can pivot 90⁰ or not at all.

Thanks for answering in good faith in an attempt to clarify the situation.

Wait, no, I meant the opposite of that. Good bye.

MarkNorfolk wrote:
...after it's compulsory move...

This is the problem with the initial question. Flyers are allowed to move over models during their move, they just can't be placed on top of them after their move, so whether you surround their base with models or not the Flyer is totally allowed to just pivot over the models surrounding it (since the pivot occurs during its move) and go on its merry way.

If you fill up the corner of the board well enough you may be able to force a Flyer to drop into hover mode or crash, but you can't do that by packing the area around its base with models to force it to move in a specific direction.

 Octopoid wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, what did I write? It clearly says whether I believe a Flyer can pivot 90⁰ or not at all.

Thanks for answering in good faith in an attempt to clarify the situation.

Wait, no, I meant the opposite of that. Good bye.

And you're not willing to explain why you're misquoting me, why you're not willing to correct your misquote and how you got to your conclusion that the term 'not just' suddenly means 'not'.

Terribly sorry that I didn't expressly clarify that when I said "pivot 90 degrees in the other direction, or not pivot at all", that I wasn't trying to say that those were literally the only two options, simply examples of why trying to block your opponent from having a legal minimum move is difficult, so that somebody felt the need to start an argument over something everybody already knew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To put what I'm saying more clearly, with being able to pivot up to 90 degrees, the imaginary arc on which a flyer would have to end for a minimum move (assuming 20" for most flyers) is a ~62.5" arc. The chances of completely blocking that are slim to none, especially because unless you're playing on a very small table, very little of that arc is going to force them over the table edge if they have to move more than 20".

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Terribly sorry that I didn't expressly clarify that when I said "pivot 90 degrees in the other direction, or not pivot at all", that I wasn't trying to say that those were literally the only two options, simply examples of why trying to block your opponent from having a legal minimum move is difficult, so that somebody felt the need to start an argument over something everybody already knew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To put what I'm saying more clearly, with being able to pivot up to 90 degrees, the imaginary arc on which a flyer would have to end for a minimum move (assuming 20" for most flyers) is a ~62.5" arc. The chances of completely blocking that are slim to none, especially because unless you're playing on a very small table, very little of that arc is going to force them over the table edge if they have to move more than 20".

See I understood that from your post, but it was Ghaz's initial reply to you that made me believe he was saying not pivoting wasn't an option. He did clarify immediately, and after skimming a few datasheets I see he(she?) was merely quoting the exact wording found in 90% of "Supersonic" entries in an attempt to clarify, not actually refuting your post (I believe?).

But you know, internet and all that. Can't call it a proper thread if there's no misunderstanding of one another.

Larks wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Terribly sorry that I didn't expressly clarify that when I said "pivot 90 degrees in the other direction, or not pivot at all", that I wasn't trying to say that those were literally the only two options, simply examples of why trying to block your opponent from having a legal minimum move is difficult, so that somebody felt the need to start an argument over something everybody already knew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To put what I'm saying more clearly, with being able to pivot up to 90 degrees, the imaginary arc on which a flyer would have to end for a minimum move (assuming 20" for most flyers) is a ~62.5" arc. The chances of completely blocking that are slim to none, especially because unless you're playing on a very small table, very little of that arc is going to force them over the table edge if they have to move more than 20".

See I understood that from your post, but it was Ghaz's initial reply to you that made me believe he was saying not pivoting wasn't an option. He did clarify immediately, and after skimming a few datasheets I see he(she?) was merely quoting the exact wording found in 90% of "Supersonic" entries in an attempt to clarify, not actually refuting your post (I believe?).

But you know, internet and all that. Can't call it a proper thread if there's no misunderstanding of one another.

Yes. You'd be surprised how many people I've seen who read it as the Flyer must make a 90⁰ turn, no more and no less.

 Ghaz wrote:

Yes. You'd be surprised how many people I've seen who read it as the Flyer must make a 90⁰ turn, no more and no less.

I'd love for them to define the term, "up to"