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Made in jp
Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster




Would cc be more viable if the retreating unit had to take a round of attacks to retreat? Would it nullify the whole retreat from combat strategy? I was wondering this as people seem to have problems with close combat and the core rules seem to favor shooty vs combat lists.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




I think the biggest problem currently is the number of units (or whole armies) who can completely ignore those mechanics. The penalty associated is fine, but as it stands, anyone who can fly, Space Marine, IG, and a bunch of armies I'm forgetting (most Eldar vehicles?) Have ways to completely ignore the otherwise fair penalty.
   
Made in gb
Stabbin' Skarboy





Dorset, England

Yes it is strange, they singled out large amounts of units ignoring universal rules in 7th as an issue, and then they did it again with FLY in 8th!

I think every unit taking a single attack from models with an inch would be fair, a whole round of free attacks would be too much and no-one would ever retreat.
Alternative you could do a 'reverse overwatch' where you get a round of free attacks but they hit on 6's.

I think both those ideas would slow down the game. Doing something like any unit who retreats takes D6 mortal wounds (FLY units get a reroll) would be best imo.

   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





My personal favorite is to make falling back only work half the time, but improve the odds for mobile units.

Roll a D6 whenever a unit falls back. Add 1 to the roll if the unit can FLY. Add 1 to the roll if the unit has a higher movement stat than all other units within 1". Add 4 to the roll if the unit falling back is a VEHICLE or MONSTER. On a 4+ the unit falls back successfully. If the roll is failed, the unit does not fall back. A roll of 1 always fails. In addition, VEHICLES and MONSTERS may move though enemy non-VEHICLE models and non-MONSTER models when making their fall back move as if they were not there.


This way mobile, aerial units are able to hit and run effectively and not get bogged down, while units that should be able to disengage by disregarding the enemy entirely also get to fall back most of the time. Grots should in no way EVER prevent a Land Raider or Carnifex from just ignoring them and moving away.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/29 09:53:00


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy, "minimum" ranges don't work, Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll, the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit, the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously, Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields, Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12", Spore Mines have an infinite range, Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad, T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only), the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle, Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing, you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it, single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit, the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment, a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight, Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything, Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers, and Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





"When you select one of your units to fight in the fight phase you may have it retreat instead of rolling for its attacks."

All the game needs on top of this is a small mention that retreats of units during the last player's fight phase count as having moved when firing during their next shooting phase.
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps






London

There should at least be some sort of roll-off, something like "Roll a D6 and add your Move characteristic, if the retreating unit scores higher they may retreat, otherwise they remain locked", with possible boosts to the roll for Fly units and other such modifiers.

Doesn't make sense that you have fast hunter squads like Raptors, Howling Banshees etc, and the poor grunts they've just charge can just go "Sod this, I'm off", leaving the whole unit vulnerable for a turn.
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




 Valkyrie wrote:
There should at least be some sort of roll-off, something like "Roll a D6 and add your Move characteristic, if the retreating unit scores higher they may retreat, otherwise they remain locked", with possible boosts to the roll for Fly units and other such modifiers.

Doesn't make sense that you have fast hunter squads like Raptors, Howling Banshees etc, and the poor grunts they've just charge can just go "Sod this, I'm off", leaving the whole unit vulnerable for a turn.

Because Screw Orks, amirite?
Seriously though, the divide between movement values for some units is so vast that this would not work at all.
Jump infantry could tie down infantry forever. Bikes could tie down jump infantry. Fast vehicles tie down bikes.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left

Another alternative would be to allow a unit that's suddenly free after having been Fall Back'd from can make a consolidation move. This would allow assault units to run into cover, move into another nearby unit, or even catch the unit trying to run away.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." C.S. Lewis
I am an Ork player, and I have no intention of being the NPC
Fun is subjective. Saying you "Play for fun" is like saying "I work hard". It implies the other person doesn't.
Realism must die
Lord Harrab wrote:"Gimme back my leg-bone! *wack* Ow, don't hit me with it!" commonly uttered by Guardsman when in close combat with Orks.

Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts.  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Phoenix, AZ

Personally, I just let them lock my meat-puppets in melee, and drive right past in tanks to go get the objectives. Or I take advantage of the new Valhallan rules to still get a shooting phase in melee. (Or just bring superheavies that get to do that anyway)

From the weakness of the mind, Omnissiah save us. From the lies of the Antipath, circuit preserve us. From the rage of the Beast, iron protect us. From the temptations of the Fleshlord, silica cleanse us. From the ravages of the Destroyer, anima shield us. From this rotting cage of biomatter, Machine God set us free. 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 combatcotton wrote:
"When you select one of your units to fight in the fight phase you may have it retreat instead of rolling for its attacks."

All the game needs on top of this is a small mention that retreats of units during the last player's fight phase count as having moved when firing during their next shooting phase.


This might be the best suggestion I've seen. You allow for tactical withdrawals but at a cost if you've got multiple units engaged, and it doesn't screw over the assaulting unit by letting the entire army *dakkadakkadakka* them into oblivion. It also makes for some interesting options if people interrupt turn order with Command Points in order to get a more valuable unit out of combat before the enemy can punch them in the face.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard




 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 combatcotton wrote:
"When you select one of your units to fight in the fight phase you may have it retreat instead of rolling for its attacks."

All the game needs on top of this is a small mention that retreats of units during the last player's fight phase count as having moved when firing during their next shooting phase.


This might be the best suggestion I've seen. You allow for tactical withdrawals but at a cost if you've got multiple units engaged, and it doesn't screw over the assaulting unit by letting the entire army *dakkadakkadakka* them into oblivion. It also makes for some interesting options if people interrupt turn order with Command Points in order to get a more valuable unit out of combat before the enemy can punch them in the face.

I strongly, *strongly* disagree. This lets basically any shooty unit Nope! out of combat with very, very little penalty - if any. Tau especially come to mind as an army that would be broken levels of unfair against Melee - They shoot at you, then overwatch, you get to hit them once, they fall back, they shoot you again.
For units that are bad in melee, and who don't use Heavy weapons, this provides no drawback.
Why should I ever leave my Hellblasters locked when they can just fall back and double tap with Plasma instead?
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Waaaghpower wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 combatcotton wrote:
"When you select one of your units to fight in the fight phase you may have it retreat instead of rolling for its attacks."

All the game needs on top of this is a small mention that retreats of units during the last player's fight phase count as having moved when firing during their next shooting phase.


This might be the best suggestion I've seen. You allow for tactical withdrawals but at a cost if you've got multiple units engaged, and it doesn't screw over the assaulting unit by letting the entire army *dakkadakkadakka* them into oblivion. It also makes for some interesting options if people interrupt turn order with Command Points in order to get a more valuable unit out of combat before the enemy can punch them in the face.

I strongly, *strongly* disagree. This lets basically any shooty unit Nope! out of combat with very, very little penalty - if any. Tau especially come to mind as an army that would be broken levels of unfair against Melee - They shoot at you, then overwatch, you get to hit them once, they fall back, they shoot you again.
For units that are bad in melee, and who don't use Heavy weapons, this provides no drawback.
Why should I ever leave my Hellblasters locked when they can just fall back and double tap with Plasma instead?


Hm, I read the suggestion as being "When you select one of your units to fight in the fight phase during your turn", with the bolded part obviously not being there. If they'd be forced to back up during their own turn they could still back up before the melee unit got to swing, giving them some sort of incentive to back out, but it wouldn't allow for the entire army to just delete the poor melee unit in the shooting phase, as that would already be over by then. This obviously wouldn't work if they'd be allowed to back out during the opponent's fight phase, though.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in kr
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller






your mind

How about the unit falling back counts as having shot during its next shooting phase?
But, let it move as normal?
But, no assaulting?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 13:39:42


   
Made in us
Guarding Guardian




 Kroem wrote:
Yes it is strange, they singled out large amounts of units ignoring universal rules in 7th as an issue, and then they did it again with FLY in 8th!

I think every unit taking a single attack from models with an inch would be fair, a whole round of free attacks would be too much and no-one would ever retreat.
Alternative you could do a 'reverse overwatch' where you get a round of free attacks but they hit on 6's.

I think both those ideas would slow down the game. Doing something like any unit who retreats takes D6 mortal wounds (FLY units get a reroll) would be best imo.



Love this idea! Although I would say D3 Mortal wounds. D6 just seems brutal, however you are retreating from combat.

   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





sonikn2o wrote:
 Kroem wrote:
Yes it is strange, they singled out large amounts of units ignoring universal rules in 7th as an issue, and then they did it again with FLY in 8th!

I think every unit taking a single attack from models with an inch would be fair, a whole round of free attacks would be too much and no-one would ever retreat.
Alternative you could do a 'reverse overwatch' where you get a round of free attacks but they hit on 6's.

I think both those ideas would slow down the game. Doing something like any unit who retreats takes D6 mortal wounds (FLY units get a reroll) would be best imo.



Love this idea! Although I would say D3 Mortal wounds. D6 just seems brutal, however you are retreating from combat.


I think if you wanted to go this way the way to do it would be something like "When a unit falls back Roll a D6 for each model within 1" of an enemy unit on a 6+ the unit suffers a mortal wound."

Maybe make it +1 to this roll for every additional model within 1" of that model.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





Denver, Colorado

At the absolute minimum, falling back shouldn't be guaranteed. It should have SOME kind of test.

Like waaaagh power said, though, on top of it being automatic, there's more and more units that just straight up ignore falling back penalties.

Falling back is by far my #1 complaint about 8th, and it's not getting better anytime soon.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.". Words to live by, especially for ork players waiting for a new codex.  
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

My favorite solution is:
"When activating a unit in the fight phase, you may have them prepare to flee instead. This unit may not attack for the rest of the phase, and suffers a penalty to leadership on the upcoming morale phase equal to double the models lost this turn, rather than the normal amount. Additionally, any ability that makes a unit immune or resistant to morale is reduced in effectiveness. Such a unit instead takes a morale test as normal instead of at double penalty. (Retreating while vicious monsters swipe at your heels is very disquieting, and this also represents the chance that some unit members may be cut down while trying to move away, rather than fleeing the field.)

On the following movement phase, any unit that prepared to flee may move out of combat (as long as all models can leave normal movement rules etc etc) and the unit may not shoot or assault this turn."

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/03 17:56:38


20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 
   
Made in us
Guarding Guardian




Breng77 wrote:
sonikn2o wrote:
 Kroem wrote:
Yes it is strange, they singled out large amounts of units ignoring universal rules in 7th as an issue, and then they did it again with FLY in 8th!

I think every unit taking a single attack from models with an inch would be fair, a whole round of free attacks would be too much and no-one would ever retreat.
Alternative you could do a 'reverse overwatch' where you get a round of free attacks but they hit on 6's.

I think both those ideas would slow down the game. Doing something like any unit who retreats takes D6 mortal wounds (FLY units get a reroll) would be best imo.



Love this idea! Although I would say D3 Mortal wounds. D6 just seems brutal, however you are retreating from combat.


I think if you wanted to go this way the way to do it would be something like "When a unit falls back Roll a D6 for each model within 1" of an enemy unit on a 6+ the unit suffers a mortal wound."

Maybe make it +1 to this roll for every additional model within 1" of that model.


I could live with this, but maybe a 4+ to suffer a wound?

   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





4+ would be far too much, it would result in most units taking 50% casualties just to fall back. I prefer the 6+, then +1 to the roll for every other model within 1 from the attacking unit if it needs to be stronger. Or +1 for every model with 1" that exceeds the number of enemy models.

That way single big models are almost guaranteed to take a wound when surrounded by smaller models, but a single grot that is in base with a land raider isn't wounding it on a 4+.

I mean against larger squads wounding on a 4+ is way stronger than even a D6 for mortal wounds.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




How about they only escape on a 4+? Done. For Wyches, they can never escape.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 jeff white wrote:
How about the unit falling back counts as having shot during its next shooting phase?
But, let it move as normal?
But, no assaulting?


...I see what you did there...

Maybe let units with the Fly keyword shoot as normal after falling back? And maybe let harlequins shoot and assault as normal? We could even give guard an order that lets them get back in the fight after they opt to fall back. ;D


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 combatcotton wrote:
"When you select one of your units to fight in the fight phase you may have it retreat instead of rolling for its attacks."

All the game needs on top of this is a small mention that retreats of units during the last player's fight phase count as having moved when firing during their next shooting phase.


This might be the best suggestion I've seen. You allow for tactical withdrawals but at a cost if you've got multiple units engaged, and it doesn't screw over the assaulting unit by letting the entire army *dakkadakkadakka* them into oblivion. It also makes for some interesting options if people interrupt turn order with Command Points in order to get a more valuable unit out of combat before the enemy can punch them in the face.

I strongly, *strongly* disagree. This lets basically any shooty unit Nope! out of combat with very, very little penalty - if any. Tau especially come to mind as an army that would be broken levels of unfair against Melee - They shoot at you, then overwatch, you get to hit them once, they fall back, they shoot you again.
For units that are bad in melee, and who don't use Heavy weapons, this provides no drawback.
Why should I ever leave my Hellblasters locked when they can just fall back and double tap with Plasma instead?


Hm, I read the suggestion as being "When you select one of your units to fight in the fight phase during your turn", with the bolded part obviously not being there. If they'd be forced to back up during their own turn they could still back up before the melee unit got to swing, giving them some sort of incentive to back out, but it wouldn't allow for the entire army to just delete the poor melee unit in the shooting phase, as that would already be over by then. This obviously wouldn't work if they'd be allowed to back out during the opponent's fight phase, though.


Throw in the "during your turn" part, and I'm on board. This gives you a reason to take melee units that can step in and "block" for escaping units. My scorpions and banshees aren't great, but they might be my means of letting a squad of guardians escape an enemy melee unit. Would we still allow units with Fly to fall back in the movement phase as normal in this system?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/03 22:03:09


 
   
Made in kr
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller






your mind

Wyldhunt wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
How about the unit falling back counts as having shot during its next shooting phase?
But, let it move as normal?
But, no assaulting?


...I see what you did there...

Maybe let units with the Fly keyword shoot as normal after falling back? And maybe let harlequins shoot and assault as normal? We could even give guard an order that lets them get back in the fight after they opt to fall back. ;D

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 combatcotton wrote:
"When you select one of your units to fight in the fight phase you may have it retreat instead of rolling for its attacks."

All the game needs on top of this is a small mention that retreats of units during the last player's fight phase count as having moved when firing during their next shooting phase.


This might be the best suggestion I've seen. You allow for tactical withdrawals but at a cost if you've got multiple units engaged, and it doesn't screw over the assaulting unit by letting the entire army *dakkadakkadakka* them into oblivion. It also makes for some interesting options if people interrupt turn order with Command Points in order to get a more valuable unit out of combat before the enemy can punch them in the face.

I strongly, *strongly* disagree. This lets basically any shooty unit Nope! out of combat with very, very little penalty - if any. Tau especially come to mind as an army that would be broken levels of unfair against Melee - They shoot at you, then overwatch, you get to hit them once, they fall back, they shoot you again.
For units that are bad in melee, and who don't use Heavy weapons, this provides no drawback.
Why should I ever leave my Hellblasters locked when they can just fall back and double tap with Plasma instead?


Hm, I read the suggestion as being "When you select one of your units to fight in the fight phase during your turn", with the bolded part obviously not being there. If they'd be forced to back up during their own turn they could still back up before the melee unit got to swing, giving them some sort of incentive to back out, but it wouldn't allow for the entire army to just delete the poor melee unit in the shooting phase, as that would already be over by then. This obviously wouldn't work if they'd be allowed to back out during the opponent's fight phase, though.


Throw in the "during your turn" part, and I'm on board. This gives you a reason to take melee units that can step in and "block" for escaping units. My scorpions and banshees aren't great, but they might be my means of letting a squad of guardians escape an enemy melee unit. Would we still allow units with Fly to fall back in the movement phase as normal in this system?




Yes, sir.
Nail. Head. Hit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/04 01:37:58


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




What about just saying that units who retreat from combat suffer d3 mortal wounds for every 10 models? This would help hurt blob units.

You could have fly units just suffer d3 wounds, to show their ease of getting into and out of combat.
   
Made in it
Drifting Cronos Hungry for Souls




Italy

demontalons wrote:
What about just saying that units who retreat from combat suffer d3 mortal wounds for every 10 models? This would help hurt blob units.

You could have fly units just suffer d3 wounds, to show their ease of getting into and out of combat.


I'd like D3 every 5 models, or D6 every 10. Losing 30% of the squad while falling back seems fair to me.

Alternatively units that want to fall back should roll a D6 and on a 4+ they can escape, otherwise they can't. Or maybe change that 4+ with other results that are based on the unit WS, high WS should let you escape easier.

Orks 9500
Space Wolves 6500
Drukhari 4500 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think that would make it too complicated by introducing ws comparisons. A straight d3 mortal wounds gives the attacking side a "victory" for forcing a retreat while the other side has to weigh the benefits/losses of retreating.

30 conscripts suffering d3 wounds per 10 would lose 6 models on average, which doesn't sound like a lot but even a 5 man raptor squad is going to kill on average 4, so you've now doubled your wound output.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/07 15:20:31


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Why not JUST a straight D3 mortal wounds? We don't need to overcomplicate everything. Most units not being able to act is already pretty good and the D3 really hurts the units that can.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Works for me. Simpler is better
   
Made in it
Drifting Cronos Hungry for Souls




Italy

D3 regardless of the number of the unit? No thanks. Falling back from CC should be something that even shooty units might want to think about it twice before doing that.

4+ to allow the retreat and suffering D6 mortal wounds every 10 models seems fair to me.

With the insane amount of firepower available, close combat should be more efficient. If a choppy unit actually manages to reach combat don't penalize it with letting the target automatically go away with just a few wounds.

In my ideal game a unit that decides to disengage combat and to fall back should be completely destroyed It would be a tactical sacrifice a player may choose to have the enemy charging unit exposed to firepower.

Orks 9500
Space Wolves 6500
Drukhari 4500 
   
Made in de
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Germany

When a unit falls back the enemy unit should have a overwatch like attack. They can attack as usual in CC, but they only hit on 6+.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




p5freak wrote:
When a unit falls back the enemy unit should have a overwatch like attack. They can attack as usual in CC, but they only hit on 6+.


That's several more steps of dice rolling than some of the other ideas proposed though. An "overwatch" attack would mean you would...

*Roll the attack for each model in the unit.
*Roll to wound for any hits
*Roll saves as applicable
*Possibly roll damage


Compare that to the automatic dX per Y models mechanic which calls for you to only roll dice once or the "fall back in the assault phase" suggestion that doesn't add any dice rolling at all and encourages you to bring counter charge units.

Also, as with actual overwatch, getting to make a few parting shots that hit on 6s would likely result in a lot of dice rolling for not much reliable damage.
   
 
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