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I had a thought the other day. You know how the swarmlord adapts. What would happen if it came across guilliman? What would the hive mind do?

As you say, it would adapt. Or would adapt a strategy to minimize his effectiveness, like throwing a few thousand gaunts at him.

Stab him in his stupid face, I imagine.

I imagine it would lose a one on one fight quite heavily. Marneus Calgar managed to defeat the Swarmlord after all.

Throwing in help, maybe from a bio-titan, a few Zoanthropes or some ambushing critters, would help even the scales.

In terms of strategy Guilliman would probably have the advantage again. Tyranids are adaptable through the creatures they produce but they generally seem to rely on overwhelming numbers/force rather than complex plans.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
I imagine it would lose a one on one fight quite heavily. Marneus Calgar managed to defeat the Swarmlord after all.

Throwing in help, maybe from a bio-titan, a few Zoanthropes or some ambushing critters, would help even the scales.

In terms of strategy Guilliman would probably have the advantage again. Tyranids are adaptable through the creatures they produce but they generally seem to rely on overwhelming numbers/force rather than complex plans.

And fighting one on one is even less their style.

Just wait until a malanthrope gobles up a primarch. Adaption time!

He adapts by getting out of the way.

He waits until his codex drops so he doesn't feel gimped for his points.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
I imagine it would lose a one on one fight quite heavily. Marneus Calgar managed to defeat the Swarmlord after all.

Throwing in help, maybe from a bio-titan, a few Zoanthropes or some ambushing critters, would help even the scales.

In terms of strategy Guilliman would probably have the advantage again. Tyranids are adaptable through the creatures they produce but they generally seem to rely on overwhelming numbers/force rather than complex plans.

Calgar did NOT defeat the swarmlord one on one. Calrger lost all his limbs and some other bits fighting the swarmlord and while he chewed through calgars honor guard they dragged away his trunk and now hes more robot than man.

As for strategy, the Swarmlord also managed to tactically out wit Calgar on every front. Hive fleets birth a swarmlord specifically when numbers are not cutting it and the hive mind deams it worth putting some more brain power on the field. The swarmlord is the total intellect, experience, and strategic acumen of every battle that every individual nid has ever fought on countless world for unknown thousands of thousands of years.

I imagine if a primarch called out the swarmlord he would do the same thing he did to the avatar of khaine. Call forward a small tidal wave of carnifex to drown him in living batterin rams and then ignore him.

Insectum7 wrote:And fighting one on one is even less their style.

True enough.

 Lance845 wrote:

Calgar did NOT defeat the swarmlord one on one. Calrger lost all his limbs and some other bits fighting the swarmlord and while he chewed through calgars honor guard they dragged away his trunk and now hes more robot than man.

As for strategy, the Swarmlord also managed to tactically out wit Calgar on every front. Hive fleets birth a swarmlord specifically when numbers are not cutting it and the hive mind deams it worth putting some more brain power on the field. The swarmlord is the total intellect, experience, and strategic acumen of every battle that every individual nid has ever fought on countless world for unknown thousands of thousands of years.

I imagine if a primarch called out the swarmlord he would do the same thing he did to the avatar of khaine. Call forward a small tidal wave of carnifex to drown him in living batterin rams and then ignore him.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. The first time the Swarmlord fought Calgar it won. They fought a second time on Ichar IV from which Calgar emerged victorious. Calgar had also learnt from the battles with Hive Fleet Behemoth and performed much better tactically. The Tyranids aren't the only ones who learn.

The Swarmlord could only swamp the Avatar with Carnifex's because a) the Avatar was stupid and b) the Tyranids had massive superiority anyway. In a more balanced fight it would be unable to so easily rush and destroy high importance targets with apparently nothing else intervening.

Priarchs mince it one on one, but the nids are not that stupid, they would lose the lord first time round then just throw gaunts at the primarch after, short of making the swarm lord a bio titan, all the primarchs have it beat in combat.

Midnightmullen wrote:
I had a thought the other day. You know how the swarmlord adapts. What would happen if it came across guilliman? What would the hive mind do?

It depends on if you're looking at it from a strategical or 1v1 combat perspective. In both cases, I'd probably hand it to Guilliman. The Swarmlord might best him once or twice with an unusual strategy (as Corax did in simulations when they first met), but Guilliman was always one of the best when it came to sitting in the chair as a strategist. Definitely up there with Dorn, Perturabo, and so on.

In 1v1 combat, a Primarch usually smacks through anything that isn't either the Emperor, another Primarch, or the The Beast. I don't rate any Tyranid organism that highly.

I fear Guilliman would win because he has to*. The Swarmlord is basically immortal, so it can be killed any number of times without affecting the setting. In essence this makes the Swarmlord something of a named NPC, much like the often abused avatars of Khaine. For Bobby G however death is a more permanent state (actual death, not almost-but-not-quite death).

That said, a primarch getting roflstomped and subsequently nommed by rippers would probably lead to wide-scale riots, and riots are bad, mkay?



* based on what the swarmlord is I would expect it to be portrayed as at least near primarch-level in battles, but w/e. There's a reasonable disconnect in the fluff imo between how powerful I'd expect nids to be based on their descriptions and how they actually perform in battles (also fluff, tabletop is another can of worms).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
I imagine it would lose a one on one fight quite heavily. Marneus Calgar managed to defeat the Swarmlord after all.

Throwing in help, maybe from a bio-titan, a few Zoanthropes or some ambushing critters, would help even the scales.

In terms of strategy Guilliman would probably have the advantage again. Tyranids are adaptable through the creatures they produce but they generally seem to rely on overwhelming numbers/force rather than complex plans.

It's all irrelevant. Fluff has tyranid organisms down to the microcellular level chewing up organic matter.

Downside to the Swarmlord?

Ultimately, it can only learn one defeat at a time.

Against Guilliman, it's facing a fairly straight fight. He's strong enough to punch it to death. Then kick it to death. Then head butt it to death. He might use Kung Fu, he might use Judo Chop. Perhaps Jeet Kuhn Do (sorry, I'm pig ignorant in martial arts), then How Ye (the ancient north eastern art of unprovoked aggression, only to be used at the very slightest provocation), then the next time Buddhist Palm.

The Imperium knows what the Swarmlord is. Which means Guilliman knows. Prioritise it's destruction, then the other Hive Tyrants. After that, deploy your fancy plans to wreck the rest of the horde. Force it to learn as little as possible from each engagement,

 Frazzled wrote:

It's all irrelevant. Fluff has tyranid organisms down to the microcellular level chewing up organic matter.

And yet Calgar killed the Swarmlord in their second bout. Tyranid microbes don't seem to be described as doing much against Space Marines. Or Guardsmen half the time.

Cool. Then 200 genestealers biting his face. Then 200 more. Then 200 more. Then 200 more...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Downside to the Swarmlord?

Ultimately, it can only learn one defeat at a time.

Against Guilliman, it's facing a fairly straight fight. He's strong enough to punch it to death. Then kick it to death. Then head butt it to death. He might use Kung Fu, he might use Judo Chop. Perhaps Jeet Kuhn Do (sorry, I'm pig ignorant in martial arts), then How Ye (the ancient north eastern art of unprovoked aggression, only to be used at the very slightest provocation), then the next time Buddhist Palm.

The Imperium knows what the Swarmlord is. Which means Guilliman knows. Prioritise it's destruction, then the other Hive Tyrants. After that, deploy your fancy plans to wreck the rest of the horde. Force it to learn as little as possible from each engagement,

I'm unclear as to the Swarmlords fluff, but my thinking would be that it's largely irrelevant, as Tyranids are a hive mind. If the Swarmlord gets killed, the lessons of the battle are still learned and Tyranids just grow another Swarmlord.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Downside to the Swarmlord?

Ultimately, it can only learn one defeat at a time.

Against Guilliman, it's facing a fairly straight fight. He's strong enough to punch it to death. Then kick it to death. Then head butt it to death. He might use Kung Fu, he might use Judo Chop. Perhaps Jeet Kuhn Do (sorry, I'm pig ignorant in martial arts), then How Ye (the ancient north eastern art of unprovoked aggression, only to be used at the very slightest provocation), then the next time Buddhist Palm.

The Imperium knows what the Swarmlord is. Which means Guilliman knows. Prioritise it's destruction, then the other Hive Tyrants. After that, deploy your fancy plans to wreck the rest of the horde. Force it to learn as little as possible from each engagement,

I'm unclear as to the Swarmlords fluff, but my thinking would be that it's largely irrelevant, as Tyranids are a hive mind. If the Swarmlord gets killed, the lessons of the battle are still learned and Tyranids just grow another Swarmlord.

Yup. And it's not that the swarmlord learns from the swarmlords fights. The swarmlord learns from every nids fights. All of them.

Swarmlord meets Primarch.

Swarmlord and Primarch go steady for a bit.

Swarmlord loses Primarch.

Swarmlord online dates for a while, unsuccessfully.

Swarmlord runs into a Primarch again at Astartesbucks.

Swarmlord and Primarch go on one exploratory date.

Swarmlord brutally murders Primarch, absorbing his biomass and acquiring all his combat skills and tactical acumen.

Swarmlord settles down with a nice Zoanthrope, but always thinks back sadly to his time with Primarch and wishes things had been different.

 Frazzled wrote:
Cool. Then 200 genestealers biting his face. Then 200 more. Then 200 more. Then 200 more...

Which get intercepted by Guilliman's forces. Unless the match up is hugely skewed it's not going to be Guilliman by his lonesome versus the swarm.

Frankly, Guilliman is likely the superior strategist and the superior combatant.

Lance845 wrote:Yup. And it's not that the swarmlord learns from the swarmlords fights. The swarmlord learns from every nids fights. All of them.

Still loses from time to time though. And Calgar seemingly learnt more from their first fight than the Swarmlord did.

The Swarmlord isn't going to duel Guilliman, as neither would force a duel unless they are confident they will win it.

Tyran wrote:
The Swarmlord isn't going to duel Guilliman, as neither would force a duel unless they are confident they will win it.

I dunno, Guilliman would definitely prioritise the Swarmlord and if necessary he'd take it down personally. No reason he wouldn't be confident he'd beat it in a duel. Although identifying and reaching it would be tricky. But hey, what's all that new technology for?

In a 1vs1 Guilliman would win. The first times. The Swarmlord would end adapting to his fight style and at some point, he'll just destroy him without a doubt. Guilliman has never been as good as a figther compared with his brothers. And I doubt that after 10.000 years Guillimand would change his fighing style to the degree the adaptability of the Swarmlord could be useless.

Or not, because Guilliman is a Primarch and as a Protagonist he can't lose or die.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Swarmlord meets Primarch.

Swarmlord and Primarch go steady for a bit.

Swarmlord loses Primarch.

Swarmlord online dates for a while, unsuccessfully.

Swarmlord runs into a Primarch again at Astartesbucks.

Swarmlord and Primarch go on one exploratory date.

Swarmlord brutally murders Primarch, absorbing his biomass and acquiring all his combat skills and tactical acumen.

Swarmlord settles down with a nice Zoanthrope, but always thinks back sadly to his time with Primarch and wishes things had been different.

Your words have truly invaded the biomass of my heart. Have an exalt.

As intelligent and experienced as the swarmlord may be, nothing in the hiveminds experience has ever come across something as powerful as a primarch in that size category. They have experienced lots of humans, lots of space marines. Seeing a primarch, the intelligent thing to do would be extrapolate their strength, speed, durability as a variation of regular humans or space marines. While that is the intelligent thing to do, and while infinite experience leads you to that conclusion, that conclusion is wrong.

All that experience is actually hurting the swarmlord, because all that experience leads it to believe the a primarch is a man, perhaps a superhuman man, but still a man. Primarchs are gods.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The Swarmlord isn't going to duel Guilliman, as neither would force a duel unless they are confident they will win it.

I dunno, Guilliman would definitely prioritise the Swarmlord and if necessary he'd take it down personally. No reason he wouldn't be confident he'd beat it in a duel. Although identifying and reaching it would be tricky. But hey, what's all that new technology for?

Guilliman would be a fool to try to personally reach the Swarmlord in the middle of the swarm, because then he is getting the dozens carnifexes treatment.

Guilliman may be a beast of a beatstick, but he is more of a force multiplier than a beatstick (something reflected in his rules). He is too important to risk his life like that, specially for something that cannot be permakilled.

 Exergy wrote:
As intelligent and experienced as the swarmlord may be, nothing in the hiveminds experience has ever come across something as powerful as a primarch in that size category. They have experienced lots of humans, lots of space marines. Seeing a primarch, the intelligent thing to do would be extrapolate their strength, speed, durability as a variation of regular humans or space marines. While that is the intelligent thing to do, and while infinite experience leads you to that conclusion, that conclusion is wrong.

All that experience is actually hurting the swarmlord, because all that experience leads it to believe the a primarch is a man, perhaps a superhuman man, but still a man. Primarchs are gods.

How do you know? Tyranids come from another galaxy. They could have already devoured a number of primarch like beings.

And not even the Daemon Primarchs are gods.

Tyran wrote:

Guilliman would be a fool to try to personally reach the Swarmlord in the middle of the swarm, because then he is getting the dozens carnifexes treatment.

Guilliman may be a beast of a beatstick, but he is more of a force multiplier than a beatstick (something reflected in his rules). He is too important to risk his life like that, specially for something that cannot be permakilled.

True enough, but since it's 40K they'd both be wading through the thick of it towards each other. I mean, why does the Swarmlord fight anyway? If it goes down, the Tyranid forces suffer massively until it gets reborn and it's not like other Tyranid organisms can't fight as well or better than it.

Insectum7 wrote:And not even the Daemon Primarchs are gods.

No but they are demi-gods and he has a point when he says that the Swarmlord is unlikely to correctly evaluate the threat a Primarch poses.

Honestly I would prefer more Chaos vs Tyranids fights than IoM vs Tyranids fights. Because that way the Swarmlord could kill Magnus or Mortarion or other Daemon Primarchs and not affect the rest of the setting.

The problem with Guilliman is that he is still mortal.