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Made in us
Sniping Hexa





Some small city in nowhere, Illinois,United States

PanO player here, who is looking to delve into Neoterra after I get some other items before hand.

I am wondering on how viable Bolts in a Core link team when Fusiliers are available as Core as well. Outside of their design (which I really do like) I do love the bio-immunity, Veteran L1 and decent BTS on a MI. The price point is what is high for me, and being MIs they can be unbearably slow. The other consideration is putting them in full core with no special weapons runs up to around 110 pts for the Combi+Light Shotgun (this is mostly a reference as a baseline), which is a considerable investment where as Fusiliers can do that with nearly have half the cost. I want to see if this can be viable, but I see a decent amount of things going against it.

Are there any other NCA players here on Dakka Dakka? If so, what are your thoughts towards Bolts in general? Are they worth giving a go in their sectorial?

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Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
 
   
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Right behind you.

No, they're really not. Maybe one or two as Specialists but a full Core team is way too expensive for what it is thanks to the stupid Combi Rifle+LSG bloat.
   
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Some small city in nowhere, Illinois,United States

Personally I am had thought about taking three at max to get the BS bonus (mostly to pull shooting/specialist double-duty). And I agree, the Combi Rifle-LSG combo seems kind of bad when Combi Rifle is a pretty decent line weapon on its own.

My personal blog. Aimed at the hobby and other things of interest to me

The obligatory non-40K/non-Warmahordes player in the forum.
Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
 
   
Made in us
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Right behind you.

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
Personally I am had thought about taking three at max to get the BS bonus (mostly to pull shooting/specialist double-duty). And I agree, the Combi Rifle-LSG combo seems kind of bad when Combi Rifle is a pretty decent line weapon on its own.

It's not that the combination of the two is bad, it's that Light Shotguns are very well known as a tax that Corvus Belli uses to inflate the point cost of a unit heavily when they need to.

I really wouldn't bother with even trying a Fireteam of them. Not when Fusiliers are (annoyingly) present and faaaaaaaar cheaper to use.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not that the combination of the two is bad, it's that Light Shotguns are very well known as a tax that Corvus Belli uses to inflate the point cost of a unit heavily when they need to.
You don't know there's a LSG tax. LSG+Rifle is known to be priced exactly the same as combi despite being superior in 95% of situations. It's like Religious you don't know if they're charging 1pt for it or not since it's contextual to the profile/army.

It's Veteran L1 and to a lesser extent Bioimmunity that are adding dead weight to the Bolt profile.

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
Personally I am had thought about taking three at max to get the BS bonus (mostly to pull shooting/specialist double-duty). And I agree, the Combi Rifle-LSG combo seems kind of bad when Combi Rifle is a pretty decent line weapon on its own.
As rule of thumb you want to utilize the Core:Fireteam slot to its fullest, Sixth Sense L2 is a very powerful skill.

Maybe 1-2 drop bear profiles are worth board edge/anti infiltrator duty. The PH11 hurts the coolest part of the equipment doe.
   
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Right behind you.

 avantgarde wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not that the combination of the two is bad, it's that Light Shotguns are very well known as a tax that Corvus Belli uses to inflate the point cost of a unit heavily when they need to.
You don't know there's a LSG tax. LSG+Rifle is known to be priced exactly the same as combi despite being superior in 95% of situations. It's like Religious you don't know if they're charging 1pt for it or not since it's contextual to the profile/army.

We know that there's a LSG tax. It's something that's been shown to exist repeatedly in past discussions.
Light Shotguns are roughly 3 points by themselves.

There isn't really a lot of discussion regarding the points values of specific items because Corvus Belli doesn't want people discussing it or figuring out their formula.

It's Veteran L1 and to a lesser extent Bioimmunity that are adding dead weight to the Bolt profile.

Those certainly don't help, especially when comparing the Bolt to a Bagh-Mari.
   
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preston

Probably not as in my experience MI link teams tend to be too slow to get up the board fast enough to work effectively.
Granted, my experience is with the Reverend Moiras, and they are overpriced, but the thing you have to look at with the Bolts is their comparative cost to something like a HI link, say, a ORC link. The HI are faster, tougher and can take more hits whilst the MI will spend most of the active turn slogging it up the board, praying they have enough orders left when they get there.

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 Crimson Devil wrote:
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Some small city in nowhere, Illinois,United States

 master of ordinance wrote:
Probably not as in my experience MI link teams tend to be too slow to get up the board fast enough to work effectively.
Granted, my experience is with the Reverend Moiras, and they are overpriced, but the thing you have to look at with the Bolts is their comparative cost to something like a HI link, say, a ORC link. The HI are faster, tougher and can take more hits whilst the MI will spend most of the active turn slogging it up the board, praying they have enough orders left when they get there.


I would not event want to take an Orc Link team in NCA, considering that NCA is also home to both Aquila Guard and Swiss which outclass it in vanilla as well. Granted Haris may not be bad for ORCs, but I'd rather save those points towards those two HIs than a Haris ORC team since those two are really good. Though there can be an argument for taking them if you want more orders on the table but need the durability.

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Bolts are generally regarded as overpriced. They're not necessarily bad, but they're paying a lot of points for rules which they often will not use.

They're paying for Combi-rifles, whose primary advantage over a rifle is the +3 within 8". Yet you have light shotguns which have +6 within that same 8". This isn't Haqq where you have Rifle+LSG.

Veteran Level 1 is a good rule, but its primary benefit occurs when you are losing(lost your Lt or are in retreat). Having your link team not care about LoL or isolation is cool of course, but it's not 25+ points a dude cool.

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preston

 Grey Templar wrote:
Bolts are generally regarded as overpriced. They're not necessarily bad, but they're paying a lot of points for rules which they often will not use.

They're paying for Combi-rifles, whose primary advantage over a rifle is the +3 within 8". Yet you have light shotguns which have +6 within that same 8". This isn't Haqq where you have Rifle+LSG.

Veteran Level 1 is a good rule, but its primary benefit occurs when you are losing(lost your Lt or are in retreat). Having your link team not care about LoL or isolation is cool of course, but it's not 25+ points a dude cool.

Feel lucky you are not Nomads then. 25 points is our cheapest MI, and he comes with V: Courage in place of Veteran (which I believe also gives pseudo V: Courage) and a LFT in place of the Shotgun (Which is not bad actually) and no Bio Immunity. And we are supposed to be the MI faction
Still, Bolts are expensive for what they do, and when one has access to so many HI, and HI link teams, they essentially become redundant as you are paying more points than a basic Fusiliers link for a slower MI link, but for only a little more you could get the HI link and become amazingly killy. Perhaps if Bolts where dropped to 21-23 points? I dont know, but to tell you the truth I cannot think of a good reason to take them to a competitive game apart from for fluff.

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 Crimson Devil wrote:
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.

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Right behind you.

 master of ordinance wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Bolts are generally regarded as overpriced. They're not necessarily bad, but they're paying a lot of points for rules which they often will not use.

They're paying for Combi-rifles, whose primary advantage over a rifle is the +3 within 8". Yet you have light shotguns which have +6 within that same 8". This isn't Haqq where you have Rifle+LSG.

Veteran Level 1 is a good rule, but its primary benefit occurs when you are losing(lost your Lt or are in retreat). Having your link team not care about LoL or isolation is cool of course, but it's not 25+ points a dude cool.

Feel lucky you are not Nomads then. 25 points is our cheapest MI, and he comes with V: Courage in place of Veteran (which I believe also gives pseudo V: Courage) and a LFT in place of the Shotgun (Which is not bad actually) and no Bio Immunity. And we are supposed to be the MI faction
Still, Bolts are expensive for what they do, and when one has access to so many HI, and HI link teams, they essentially become redundant as you are paying more points than a basic Fusiliers link for a slower MI link, but for only a little more you could get the HI link and become amazingly killy. Perhaps if Bolts where dropped to 21-23 points? I dont know, but to tell you the truth I cannot think of a good reason to take them to a competitive game apart from for fluff.

Wildcats are 19 points in their basic Combi Rifle/LFT profile. That also includes D-Charges however.
When given the Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades, Deployable Repeater profile a Wildcat is 17 points.

But you're talking about Grenzers, who have MSV L1 and don't come with a standard Pistol but instead bring a Breaker Pistol.

The absolute cheapest that Bolts are is 19 points for the Boarding Shotgun and E/M Grenades profile.
Bolts start out at 22 points for the Combi Rifle+LSG profile but in order to get the profile that was constantly talked about/highlighted for them in the form of the Drop Bears? You're paying 25 points for a CR+LSG with a mine that can be thrown but doesn't get to be in a Marker State.

NCA also has what amounts to 0 Heavy Infantry Link Teams. ORCs can be taken as AVA 3 and you need to bring the Haris profile in order to Link them.
Aquila Guard cannot Link. Swiss cannot Link. Even if they weren't crazy high points, there'd be no real point as most benefits for Link Teams tend to really help out when you have Specialist profiles which are a non-existent thing in PanO Heavy Infantry that aren't Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 master of ordinance wrote:
Probably not as in my experience MI link teams tend to be too slow to get up the board fast enough to work effectively.
Granted, my experience is with the Reverend Moiras, and they are overpriced, but the thing you have to look at with the Bolts is their comparative cost to something like a HI link, say, a ORC link. The HI are faster, tougher and can take more hits whilst the MI will spend most of the active turn slogging it up the board, praying they have enough orders left when they get there.

Reverend Moiras are far from overpriced. You're paying 30 points for a model with a MULTI Rifle, Multiterrain, and an Optical Disruption Device.

Are they cheap? No. But they're also not wasting points on a skill that requires you to play poorly(Veteran L1) or another skill that is highly dependent upon your opponent bringing certain kinds of weapons(Bioimmunity).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/08 11:32:13


 
   
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Well, most lists have shock weapons of some kind. But ignoring that isn't super useful.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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preston

 Kanluwen wrote:

Wildcats are 19 points in their basic Combi Rifle/LFT profile. That also includes D-Charges however.
When given the Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades, Deployable Repeater profile a Wildcat is 17 points.

Forgot about those, my bad.... And when I have just finished a Hellcat as well now I feel a right tit.

But you're talking about Grenzers, who have MSV L1 and don't come with a standard Pistol but instead bring a Breaker Pistol.

And a regular pistol, and are generally never taken except in FOO form for the sensor. For the most part they are considered underwhelming for what they do, especially when we have Riot Grrrls. Grenzer's are just.... Not good. Not when there are better tools anyway.

The absolute cheapest that Bolts are is 19 points for the Boarding Shotgun and E/M Grenades profile.
Bolts start out at 22 points for the Combi Rifle+LSG profile but in order to get the profile that was constantly talked about/highlighted for them in the form of the Drop Bears? You're paying 25 points for a CR+LSG with a mine that can be thrown but doesn't get to be in a Marker State.

I do not disagree, Bolts are overpriced. That said, Pano gets a lot of really good Heavy Infantry and TAG's, so there is something, but from a Neoterra secttorial point of view I can see the problem - especially as I am considering that secttorial myself!

NCA also has what amounts to 0 Heavy Infantry Link Teams. ORCs can be taken as AVA 3 and you need to bring the Haris profile in order to Link them.
Aquila Guard cannot Link. Swiss cannot Link. Even if they weren't crazy high points, there'd be no real point as most benefits for Link Teams tend to really help out when you have Specialist profiles which are a non-existent thing in PanO Heavy Infantry that aren't Knights.

Damn, so ORC's are only AVA 3? Well, there goes that plan. Anyway, dont knock them, the ORC is quite decent by most factions standards (its just the plethora of really good HI that Pano gets that makes them seem bad), but I can see the arguement for the Swiss Guard - TO on a HI with Arm 5 is crazy good!

Reverend Moiras are far from overpriced. You're paying 30 points for a model with a MULTI Rifle, Multiterrain, and an Optical Disruption Device.

Multiterrain is largely useless outside of certain boards and scenario's, the Multi Rifle is good, the ODD would be great if the model didnt cost as much (and in some cases more than) many HI units whilst having a BTS of 0 and a BS only a point above average and a Shock/AP CCW that I have never once seen used. Moiras are largely overpriced, just ask any Nomad player, and the only two profiles that are seen as useful are the MSR and HMG ones.

Are they cheap? No. But they're also not wasting points on a skill that requires you to play poorly(Veteran L1) or another skill that is highly dependent upon your opponent bringing certain kinds of weapons(Bioimmunity).

Religious Troop. Its great and fluffy but I would drop it in a heartbeat if I could get the girls to below 30 points.

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8th of the Keepers of the PDF of that RPG which shall not be named. Look not into that which defies decency.
 Crimson Devil wrote:
7th edition 40k is a lot like BDSM these days. Only play with people you know and develop a safe word for when things get too intense. And It doesn't hurt to be a sadist or masochist as well.

DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Neoterra is in a weird spot among sectorials in that they have few fire team options. And no Core heavy infantry options. Which doesn't fit the fluff of Neoterra troops at all.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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Some small city in nowhere, Illinois,United States

 Grey Templar wrote:
Neoterra is in a weird spot among sectorials in that they have few fire team options. And no Core heavy infantry options. Which doesn't fit the fluff of Neoterra troops at all.


I wonder if that has to do with balance moreso than that (although you could do what QK did for Hafzas and apply it for ORCs). Also, making Bolts having a Haris team would do wonders, which I hope they fix by Acheron Falls or so.

My personal blog. Aimed at the hobby and other things of interest to me

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Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
 
   
Made in us
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Right behind you.

 master of ordinance wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Wildcats are 19 points in their basic Combi Rifle/LFT profile. That also includes D-Charges however.
When given the Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades, Deployable Repeater profile a Wildcat is 17 points.

Forgot about those, my bad.... And when I have just finished a Hellcat as well now I feel a right tit.

But you're talking about Grenzers, who have MSV L1 and don't come with a standard Pistol but instead bring a Breaker Pistol.

And a regular pistol, and are generally never taken except in FOO form for the sensor. For the most part they are considered underwhelming for what they do, especially when we have Riot Grrrls. Grenzer's are just.... Not good. Not when there are better tools anyway.

Grenzers are only available in Vanilla. Vanilla is the "Unbound" of Infinity.

When Tunguska Jurisdictional Command comes out and Grenzers become AVA5 Linkable options in a Sectorial? You have no idea when they will or won't be used.

Also, Riot Grrls are HI.
Grenzers are MI.

Grenzers also aren't Frenzied.

The absolute cheapest that Bolts are is 19 points for the Boarding Shotgun and E/M Grenades profile.
Bolts start out at 22 points for the Combi Rifle+LSG profile but in order to get the profile that was constantly talked about/highlighted for them in the form of the Drop Bears? You're paying 25 points for a CR+LSG with a mine that can be thrown but doesn't get to be in a Marker State.

I do not disagree, Bolts are overpriced. That said, Pano gets a lot of really good Heavy Infantry and TAG's, so there is something, but from a Neoterra secttorial point of view I can see the problem - especially as I am considering that secttorial myself!

PANO might get those things.
NCA doesn't.

NCA also has what amounts to 0 Heavy Infantry Link Teams. ORCs can be taken as AVA 3 and you need to bring the Haris profile in order to Link them.
Aquila Guard cannot Link. Swiss cannot Link. Even if they weren't crazy high points, there'd be no real point as most benefits for Link Teams tend to really help out when you have Specialist profiles which are a non-existent thing in PanO Heavy Infantry that aren't Knights.

Damn, so ORC's are only AVA 3? Well, there goes that plan. Anyway, dont knock them, the ORC is quite decent by most factions standards (its just the plethora of really good HI that Pano gets that makes them seem bad), but I can see the arguement for the Swiss Guard - TO on a HI with Arm 5 is crazy good!

It's really not "quite decent". It's just people have built it up as being special for years and years.

Reverend Moiras are far from overpriced. You're paying 30 points for a model with a MULTI Rifle, Multiterrain, and an Optical Disruption Device.

Multiterrain is largely useless outside of certain boards and scenario's, the Multi Rifle is good, the ODD would be great if the model didnt cost as much (and in some cases more than) many HI units whilst having a BTS of 0 and a BS only a point above average and a Shock/AP CCW that I have never once seen used. Moiras are largely overpriced, just ask any Nomad player, and the only two profiles that are seen as useful are the MSR and HMG ones.

Multiterrain is far from useless.
You literally get to choose a type of terrain to have Specialization in.


Are they cheap? No. But they're also not wasting points on a skill that requires you to play poorly(Veteran L1) or another skill that is highly dependent upon your opponent bringing certain kinds of weapons(Bioimmunity).

Religious Troop. Its great and fluffy but I would drop it in a heartbeat if I could get the girls to below 30 points.

You can't get them below 30 points because of things like ODD. Compare the points cost of a Locust to your Reverend Moira sometime.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Neoterra is in a weird spot among sectorials in that they have few fire team options. And no Core heavy infantry options. Which doesn't fit the fluff of Neoterra troops at all.


I wonder if that has to do with balance moreso than that (although you could do what QK did for Hafzas and apply it for ORCs). Also, making Bolts having a Haris team would do wonders, which I hope they fix by Acheron Falls or so.

Bolts were in N3 proper.
We've since gotten Human Sphere N3.

They don't want Bolts with Haris. It's actually been stated that they think it isn't "appropriate" for them.

Additionally, it has nothing to do with balance. NCA has been a mess since its initial introduction with Human Sphere. Auxilia are supposed to be the Fusilier equivalent for NCA yet they didn't want them linkable thus we got Fusiliers tossed in at AVA5.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/09 17:38:28


 
   
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Taking a 5 man Bolt list to a tourney this weekend as one of my lists. They're kinda mission specific, but for Hunting Party I want something beefy that can go hunt down LTs. While Vet L1 is pretty redundant given LoL doesn't apply, everyone getting adhesive launchers is pretty sweet. Will let you know how it goes!

 
   
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Don't get caught up in the InfinityTheForums whine festival about Bolts - literally every thread in the Pan0 forum degenerates into whining about how Bolts should be _______.

Bolts get expensive, depending on how you build the Fireteam. Compare them to another MI Fireteam with high BS - Sekban. Bolts range from 19-27 points while Sekban range from 20-27 points - note: the average points cost of Bolts is definitely higher if you want to pack the Fireteam with fancy guys. Sekban get a 360 visor (mostly redundant in a link), +1 Arm, +2 WIP, Doctor+ and there are a few other differences. Bolts get Veteran L1, Bioimmunity, BTS6, and generally fancier weapons. IMO, stacking the Fireteam with Drop Bear guys is a waste of points when the cheap loadout is fantastic. With Bolts, you want to leverage the fact that the Hacker and cheapest profile both get E/M Grenades. They also get Boarding Shotguns, making this a relatively short-ranged fireteam.

The conventional wisdom is that Bolts should be a toolbox link, but they don't really play well in this role. They're a much better midfield unit that can respond with shotguns, a Spitfire, and E/M grenades while laughing off Mines and Sniper Rifles with their effective ARM6 or 9.

Certain people will probably take issue with this. This is simply an analysis coming from someone who plays 4 factions at least 2x/week, NCA included.

I would compare this:

Neoterran Capitaline Army
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

5
BOLT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
BOLT Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 27)
BOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
BOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
BOLT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)

2 SWC | 113 Points

Open in Infinity Army


To This:

Qapu Khalqi
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

5
SEKBAN Spitfire / Pistol, Stun Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27)
SEKBAN Doctor Plus (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Chain-colt / Pistol, Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
SEKBAN AP Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
SEKBAN AP Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
SEKBAN AP Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)

1.5 SWC | 114 Points

Open in Infinity Army



In the midfield during the reactive turn, Bolts are more threatening to HI and TAGs whereas the Sekban are more threatening to W1 low ARM models due to their Chain Colts. Both units have zero problem killing enemy models in the active turn. Sekban are more easily revived, but Bolts are more resilient against certain fairly common fancy weapons (mines, viral, sniper rifles, etc.).

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Right behind you.

And since you decided to bring up the "Infinity Forums Whinefest", most of it comes down to the fact that many PanO players feel like for the points cost, Bolts are not worthwhile. There's some people who are happy with them(which is fine), but there's also quite a few people who just don't bother commenting or leave commenting to people who enjoy arguing since threads in the PanO forum get dogpiled by people like yourself who love to try the "noobs, L2P" approach and talk down to others.

They were talked up with their initial introduction towards the end of N2 as being an area denial unit with Drop Bears(which were supposed to be launched rather than thrown) and bringing some unique skillsets/loadouts that PanO didn't have.

They didn't. There's no Engineer profile, there's no FO, there's nothing barring a Hacker and a Paramedic--something that PanO has access to with no real issues.

I feel like I should point out as well that it seems you purposely stacked the Bolts with Boarding Shotguns since it's the cheapest profile they had to prove your point.
Compare the Sekban carrying AP Rifle, Chain-Colt/Pistol, Stun Pistol, Knife(with Fireteam: Duo, Fireteam: Haris, or Fireteam: Core options, 360 Visors, the same BS, a point higher armor) at 21 points to a Bolt with Combi Rifle+LSG, Pistol, Knife(and 3 additional BTS with Bioimmunity and Veteran L1) at 22 points.

You can talk about the "whinefest" all you want, it does not change the fact that PanO's big signature thing(+1Ballistic Skill) isn't a huge deal anymore despite what some people like to claim. It certainly isn't worth the points bump that CB has said that they put on PanO units in the past nor is it worth the lack of access to basic toolbox items like Smoke+MSV or Engineer profiles for specialized infantry types.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/10 00:03:25


 
   
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You can talk about the "whinefest" all you want, it does not change the fact that PanO's big signature thing(+1Ballistic Skill) isn't a huge deal anymore despite what some people like to claim. It certainly isn't worth the points bump that CB has said that they put on PanO units in the past nor is it worth the lack of access to basic toolbox items like Smoke+MSV or Engineer profiles for specialized infantry types.
Then why does PanO win major tournaments? Clearly none of those things are holding back the faction.

https://infinitythegame.com/blog/articles/item/366-infinity-interplanetario-iv-summary-and-pulpistatistics

The winner of 2016 Rumble on Route 66 was also a vanilla PanO player with Military Orders placing top 4.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/11 18:31:35


 
   
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And to add PanO has other things to make for just the +1BS, such as equipment that is good for countering other factions toys and tricks (access to all levels of MSV, Auxilia and Auxbot, etc).

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Beyond the Beltway

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Don't get caught up in the InfinityTheForums whine festival about Bolts - literally every thread in the Pan0 forum degenerates into whining about how Bolts should be _______.


No. Not true at all. A fair number of threads degenerate into whining about Bipandra. Or Smoke.

Bolts are over-costed. They have a decent profile. They are playable.


 
   
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 Red Harvest wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Don't get caught up in the InfinityTheForums whine festival about Bolts - literally every thread in the Pan0 forum degenerates into whining about how Bolts should be _______.


No. Not true at all. A fair number of threads degenerate into whining about Bipandra. Or Smoke.

Bolts are over-costed. They have a decent profile. They are playable.


Bolts might also be great if you know your meta is heavy on Viral/Shock. But that kind of makes them too meta-dependent, which is why most argue that Fusiliers are the usual go-to for NCA's core fireteam.

My personal blog. Aimed at the hobby and other things of interest to me

The obligatory non-40K/non-Warmahordes player in the forum.
Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
 
   
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 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
 Red Harvest wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Don't get caught up in the InfinityTheForums whine festival about Bolts - literally every thread in the Pan0 forum degenerates into whining about how Bolts should be _______.


No. Not true at all. A fair number of threads degenerate into whining about Bipandra. Or Smoke.

Bolts are over-costed. They have a decent profile. They are playable.


Bolts might also be great if you know your meta is heavy on Viral/Shock. But that kind of makes them too meta-dependent, which is why most argue that Fusiliers are the usual go-to for NCA's core fireteam.


Bioimmunity makes Bolts good against Viral and Shock, but BTS6 also gives them an advantage against Breaker and EM/2 ammo.

EM grenades gives them an advantage against HI and TAGs.

Nearly all factions in Infinity leverage either Viral / Shock (Ariadna, Tohaa, Haqq) or HI and TAGs (YJ, Pan0, Combined, Nomads, Haqq).


Like I said - they aren't a toolbox link. In order to leverage their strengths, you have to play them well. They afford the opportunity to hard counter benefits of all factions in the game. Your point is correct about Fusiliers being better generalists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 03:42:41


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preston

You can talk about the "whinefest" all you want, it does not change the fact that PanO's big signature thing(+1Ballistic Skill) isn't a huge deal anymore despite what some people like to claim.

As a Nomad player I would quite happily give up my excellent hacking abilities for +1BS.
Hacking is incredibly situational, but +1BS (not to mention the other toys) really makes a huge difference when one is trying to win f2f rolls against ones opponents. To get the most out of my hackers I am relying on my opponent bringing hackable units and getting them into a position where I can hack them, but +1BS is a major benefit that works all the time.

Back on topic, as I said above, Bolts are a little expensive, but nothing like what Nomad players have to put up with (30+ point MI's that really do not perform well enough to justify the obscene price) but the major thing with Bolts is that Pano has so many really good HI's that overshadow something that other factions would call an all right or okayish unit.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/581001.page#6570095don't click this link...
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Right behind you.

 master of ordinance wrote:
You can talk about the "whinefest" all you want, it does not change the fact that PanO's big signature thing(+1Ballistic Skill) isn't a huge deal anymore despite what some people like to claim.

As a Nomad player I would quite happily give up my excellent hacking abilities for +1BS.
Hacking is incredibly situational, but +1BS (not to mention the other toys) really makes a huge difference when one is trying to win f2f rolls against ones opponents. To get the most out of my hackers I am relying on my opponent bringing hackable units and getting them into a position where I can hack them, but +1BS is a major benefit that works all the time.

Hacking is far from "incredibly situational". Hackers have Offensive and Defensive programs. There was never a situation where I felt points were wasted when I had a Hacker and the opponent didn't really have anything hackable(which reaaaaaally requires someone to make a special kind of list I might add, since the addition of all the programs and how some target MI or HI and they're not just for dealing with TAGs).

Additionally, that "+1BS" results in Bolts being BS13.
Here's a list of some Nomad stuff that is BS13:
Wildcats are BS13 and cheaper than Bolts.
Grenzer are BS13 and around the same price as Bolts, with a points cost slightly higher on some profiles because of MSV L1 being a basic trait for the Grenzers.
Reverend Custodier are BS12 and more expensive than Bolts but bring Fireteam: Haris to the table.
Sin-Eater Observants are BS13 and more expensive than Bolts, but strictly bring specialized weapon profiles in.
Intruders are BS13 Medium Infantry that are basically considered "must-haves" for any Nomad vanilla list.
Kriza Borac, Mobile Brigada, Riot Grrls, Taskmasters are BS13 as well.
The Nomad TAGs are BS13 on the Geckos(which get to be AVA4 in CJC and are pretty cheap comparatively) and then BS14 on all the bigger stuff. That puts them 1 point of BS shy of the PanO TAGs which are BS15.

Back on topic, as I said above, Bolts are a little expensive, but nothing like what Nomad players have to put up with (30+ point MI's that really do not perform well enough to justify the obscene price) but the major thing with Bolts is that Pano has so many really good HI's that overshadow something that other factions would call an all right or okayish unit.

Except nobody really uses PanO HI either. Military Orders lists use them a lot because many have Frenzy which drops the price to start with, Aquila Guard get used in NCA if someone wants a big points investiture right off the bat, Swiss Guard are used in the same way. ORCs sometimes make an appearance.

If you spend some time and actually look at PanO lists floating around, there's a recurring trend.
That trend is Fusiliers.
   
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 avantgarde wrote:
You can talk about the "whinefest" all you want, it does not change the fact that PanO's big signature thing(+1Ballistic Skill) isn't a huge deal anymore despite what some people like to claim. It certainly isn't worth the points bump that CB has said that they put on PanO units in the past nor is it worth the lack of access to basic toolbox items like Smoke+MSV or Engineer profiles for specialized infantry types.
Then why does PanO win major tournaments? Clearly none of those things are holding back the faction.

https://infinitythegame.com/blog/articles/item/366-infinity-interplanetario-iv-summary-and-pulpistatistics

The winner of 2016 Rumble on Route 66 was also a vanilla PanO player with Military Orders placing top 4.


Pano wins because +1 BS isn't really their shtick. Having very cost efficient units is their shtick. In this game, the combi-rifle and HMG can deal with most units in the game especially when supported by MSV and KHD. While its true that order spam lists have an advantage with their number of specialists, recent ITS seasons have had rules to limit their effectiveness and get people to play more elite teams. Smaller elite teams can focus on the few big threats in an order spam list and then dominate the game. Everyone gets awed by the cool units with awesome skills and equipment and then Pano comes along and guns it down with a basic combi or HMG. So keep in mind that this is still a game where everything dies to shooting.

Bolts are an odd ball since they are not cost efficient. But they do better as a QCB link then Fusiliers and a minimalist build makes them decently efficient. If you can leverage their boarding shotguns and E/M grenades, they become a pretty good link team. Sure, Bolts aren't impressive compared to other MI links but in NCA, you don't have many options if you want shotguns and E/M grenades. Drop bears are better deployed with the Black Friars or Locusts.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/01 20:23:36


 
   
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I didn't read it all, but like anything in Infinity, its how you use it. Pan O doesn't really do it for me. (I tried) but a link team like the Bolts has great use. They are slow, but durable and useful.

If I did run the unit, I would use at least
> 2 x Drop Bear Load out
> 1 x Hacker
> 1 x Missle Launcher
> 1 x Spitfire
> 1 x Boarding Shotgun

Yes it is pricey, however they have some serious chops.

If you go first, use the right tool for the job to clear ARO units. You can slowly work your way to the middle and drop 4-6 drop bears in sneaky places to make the advance terribly hard.

And if your opponent is using any shock or viral... Gravy.



   
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Masterofmelee wrote:
I didn't read it all, but like anything in Infinity, its how you use it. Pan O doesn't really do it for me. (I tried) but a link team like the Bolts has great use. They are slow, but durable and useful.

If I did run the unit, I would use at least
> 2 x Drop Bear Load out
> 1 x Hacker
> 1 x Missle Launcher
> 1 x Spitfire
> 1 x Boarding Shotgun

Yes it is pricey, however they have some serious chops.


Having an extra Bolt to reinforce the link is indeed a good move.
I'd prefer the paramedic as a specialist in the Linkt though. Mainly because of the Hacker being an easy target for Killer Hackers who can therefore rip your link apart thanks to the Bolt's WIP 12.

   
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Masterofmelee wrote:
I didn't read it all, but like anything in Infinity, its how you use it.

Certain kits will give you much greater overall flexibility. Bolts flaws were stated in the previous posts and there's no real need to state them over again. Can we stop beating the dead horse?
   
 
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