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Made in au
Kinebrach-Knobbling Xeno Interrogator





Aqshy, realm of Fire

Spoilers for Master of Mankind abound, ye be warned. See Also: "Rampant Speculation" and 'What constitutes Heresy? A Guide for Guardsmen' by Commie Czar

I've been re-reading Master of Mankind and noticed that as always, He refers to His primarchs as 'it' and claims them to be nothing more than tools. Outside of allowing them to call Him 'father' the primarchs are just generals and a means to an end. Save for Horus. When questioned by Ra regarding the shepherding of mankind, Big E refers to Horus as 'he' rather than it. It feels like nothing but could hint at the oft-mentioned sentimentality of Big E to Horus and why He couldn't land the killing blow straight off.

Again, it's most likely nothing, but as the HH book series comes to an end we might find out whether it was sentimentality, Chaos Juice and whether it was Ollanius or Sanguinius who died for the Emps.


This is where I'd put my signature...If I had one! 
   
Made in au
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Slight spoilers for Dark Imperium.

I remember another Dakka poster came up with the following idea, but I don't remember who they were. If you're reading this feel free to claim credit.

The Emperor did see the Primarchs as his tools and showed no emotion for them, only taking actions that would further the unification of humanity (I.e. Keeping the nails in Angron which made him a better warrior), but his flaw was he began to show emotion towards Horus and actually began favouring him as a son. As that flaw caused the downfall of both himself and his Imperium (not being able to land the killing blow) he has since doubled down on his emotionless stance, as seen in his meeting with Gulliman in "Dark Imperium".
   
Made in fr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

 SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:
Spoilers for Master of Mankind abound, ye be warned. See Also: "Rampant Speculation" and 'What constitutes Heresy? A Guide for Guardsmen' by Commie Czar

I've been re-reading Master of Mankind and noticed that as always, He refers to His primarchs as 'it' and claims them to be nothing more than tools. Outside of allowing them to call Him 'father' the primarchs are just generals and a means to an end. Save for Horus. When questioned by Ra regarding the shepherding of mankind, Big E refers to Horus as 'he' rather than it. It feels like nothing but could hint at the oft-mentioned sentimentality of Big E to Horus and why He couldn't land the killing blow straight off.

Again, it's most likely nothing, but as the HH book series comes to an end we might find out whether it was sentimentality, Chaos Juice and whether it was Ollanius or Sanguinius who died for the Emps.



Very interesting. I'm curious to know how they translated this subtility into French, where «it» doesn't exist.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/09 18:43:44


   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

How the Emperor refers to the Primarchs though very much seems to reflect the character with whom he is interacting with during the course of Master of Mankind.

When talking to Arkhan Land, he refers to them as "It" and Angron as "The Thirteenth". He approaches the Primarchs from a very distant unemotional state, yet with a scientific interest. Reflecting the Mechanicum's general stance on all things.

When talking to Ra, he refers to them by "It" or Horus by "He", "The Sixteenth". His displays a general disdain for many of the Primarchs, reflecting the Custodes' own disdain for them for their part in bringing down the Emperor's dream.

Yet the first thing we see him say in the book is during Magnus' Folly he refers to the Primarch by his name saying. "Magnus." Referring to the Primarch as he refers to himself.

So he shows varying degrees of attatchment depending on whom he is talking with, playing all sides as he needs them. Will we see the truth as it was during the Crusade and Heresy? Maybe in dealing with Horus and Sanguinius on the Vengful Spirit. On the whole though, I think it hardly matters, by then everyone was just a tool, a pawn in his grand designs.

And now thousands of years later, the Emperor is a rage filled spirit, who blames the failings of his Empire on the Primarchs apparently.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

So he shows varying degrees of attatchment depending on whom he is talking with, playing all sides as he needs them. Will we see the truth as it was during the Crusade and Heresy? Maybe in dealing with Horus and Sanguinius on the Vengful Spirit. On the whole though, I think it hardly matters, by then everyone was just a tool, a pawn in his grand designs.

And now thousands of years later, the Emperor is a rage filled spirit, who blames the failings of his Empire on the Primarchs apparently.

Supposedly in Master of Mankind everybody kind of saw him as they wanted to. A lot of it wasn't even vocal communication but telepathic. I think it's supposed to be ambiguous as to how he really viewed people. It certainly seems to lean towards him being fairly unfeeling towards the Primarchs though. That said it's weird because you'd expect the conversation between two other people to have come up at some point.
"Why are you calling the Primarchs 'it'?"
"Why not, the Emperor does it?"
"What, no he doesn't. He always calls them son or by name or insert-term-here."

To be fair, the Emperor being harsh in talking to Guilliman actually works with older fluff with the concept that the Emperor forced all compassion and mercy from his mind to destroy Horus. Wasn't it involved with the star-child theory as well? Plus he's had 10,000 years of agony on the Golden Throne, persevering for the sake of humanity, so it really is understandable that he'd be less loving.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Nottingham

@Victorvontzeentch my thoughts exactly, his language use is an extension of the impression he is deliberately giving to an individual, and says more about the relationship with the listener, rather than the subject.

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Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

So he shows varying degrees of attatchment depending on whom he is talking with, playing all sides as he needs them. Will we see the truth as it was during the Crusade and Heresy? Maybe in dealing with Horus and Sanguinius on the Vengful Spirit. On the whole though, I think it hardly matters, by then everyone was just a tool, a pawn in his grand designs.

And now thousands of years later, the Emperor is a rage filled spirit, who blames the failings of his Empire on the Primarchs apparently.

Supposedly in Master of Mankind everybody kind of saw him as they wanted to. A lot of it wasn't even vocal communication but telepathic. I think it's supposed to be ambiguous as to how he really viewed people. It certainly seems to lean towards him being fairly unfeeling towards the Primarchs though. That said it's weird because you'd expect the conversation between two other people to have come up at some point.
"Why are you calling the Primarchs 'it'?"
"Why not, the Emperor does it?"
"What, no he doesn't. He always calls them son or by name or insert-term-here."


Well those that have heard him call them "It" are either the Custodes, who aren't a chatty bunch, or Arkhan Land, who I believe mentions that he keeps his work with the Emperor involving Angron as the sole bit of pride he doesnt share with others I doubt it comes up much. With most people hearing, "They" "my Sons" because he even covers referring to them as his sons when dealing with Arkhan, after he expresses his thoughts on them being referred to as it, when he knows for a fact the Emperor calls them sons. Its part of the game. If Arkhan did express it to someone, who'd experienced something different, they could very likely (particularly in Land's case after their meeting) believe that what the Emperor had told them was the truth and that what the other person knew was just what the Emperor wanted them to think. That they are the one that really knows, because the Emperor told them in Private.

To be fair, the Emperor being harsh in talking to Guilliman actually works with older fluff with the concept that the Emperor forced all compassion and mercy from his mind to destroy Horus. Wasn't it involved with the star-child theory as well? Plus he's had 10,000 years of agony on the Golden Throne, persevering for the sake of humanity, so it really is understandable that he'd be less loving.


Was it that he pushed all of his Mercy and Compassion out? Or only that Mercy and Compassion that he felt towards Horus? But yes, I understand why he would blame things on them now, and be less forgiving. It just goes to show that what he had thought hardly matters anymore, because we know what he thinks now.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JamesY wrote:
@Victorvontzeentch my thoughts exactly, his language use is an extension of the impression he is deliberately giving to an individual, and says more about the relationship with the listener, rather than the subject.


Yes, and I would like to see more of those interactions, regardless of how little they may or may not matter. I want to see more of how others think he views the Primarchs, rather than how he actually views them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/09 21:04:13


 
   
Made in be
Courageous Beastmaster





Not to mention the custodians know he can communicate with anyone in their own language without speaking a word.

Emps must get huge charisma bonuses from that aura.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 15:38:50





 
   
Made in ru
Implacable Skitarii




 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Was it that he pushed all of his Mercy and Compassion out? Or only that Mercy and Compassion that he felt towards Horus


If i remember old 'dexes right - ALL mercy and compassion "so the rest can survive".

(Shard of) Emperor in Ian Watson's 'Inquisitor':
WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRUPTED, HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE...WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD...WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY? THOSE WENT AWAY. HOW ELSE COULD WE HAVE ARMOURED OURSELVES? EXISTENCE IS TORMENT, A TORMENT THAT MUST NOURISH US. EVIDENTLY WE MUST STRIVE TO BE THE FIERCE REDEEMER OF MAN, YET WHAT WILL REDEEM US?

Without passion we'd be truly dead. 
   
Made in fi
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




[Expunged from Imperial records] =][=

 SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:
Spoilers for Master of Mankind abound, ye be warned. See Also: "Rampant Speculation" and 'What constitutes Heresy? A Guide for Guardsmen' by Commie Czar

I've been re-reading Master of Mankind and noticed that as always, He refers to His primarchs as 'it' and claims them to be nothing more than tools. Outside of allowing them to call Him 'father' the primarchs are just generals and a means to an end. Save for Horus. When questioned by Ra regarding the shepherding of mankind, Big E refers to Horus as 'he' rather than it. It feels like nothing but could hint at the oft-mentioned sentimentality of Big E to Horus and why He couldn't land the killing blow straight off.

Again, it's most likely nothing, but as the HH book series comes to an end we might find out whether it was sentimentality, Chaos Juice and whether it was Ollanius or Sanguinius who died for the Emps.



1) I always thought his sentimentality and empathy for Horus were strange. The man had one job* and that was to kill Chaos. Whoever they are. He could have even done that by being a terrible father like he most of the times was already.

2) Both Sanguinius and Ollanius sacrificed themselves for the Imperial victory. In that order. Some legends claim that afterwards, a terminator and a Custodes followed suit (in vain) just not to be one-upped.

*Okay, several jobs. Killing Chaos is just a stepping stone.

"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!" 
   
 
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