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2017/10/10 00:48:32
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I have a clarification question re: the Tallarn Heirloom, the Dagger of Tu'Sakh. Its rule is written thusly on p.138 of the new codex:
During deployment, you can set up the bearer and one INFANTRY unit from your army behind enemy lines.... The infantry unit must have the same <REGIMENT> keyword as the bearer if the bearer has one....
My question is twofold:
1. If I give this Heirloom to a Commissar or Lord Commissar, is OFFICIO PREFECTUS considered a <REGIMENT> keyword replacement?
2. If it's not, could the phrasing, "must have the same <REGIMENT> keyword as the bearer if the bearer has one" be read as, "if your bearer doesn't have a <REGIMENT> keyword, there is no restriction on the infantry unit that is brought"?
Looking throughout the entire list of datasheets, it appears that AERONAUTICA IMPERIALIS, MILITARUM AUXILLA, OFFICIO PREFECTUS and SCOLASTICA PSYKANA are not really <REGIMENT> keywords, but the limitations on the Dagger of Tu'Sakh could mean you can't use it at all with these units unless both the bearer and infantry unit it brings are of the same keyword listed here. I would like to think I could have a Commissar bear it to bring in a <REGIMENT> Infantry Squad, but I'm not all that sure.
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2017/10/10 01:22:35
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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1. No.
2. No.
The reason the second answer is no is because a shared lack of <REGIMENT> keyword is self-evidently not a shared <REGIMENT> keyword.
EDIT:
I evidently have difficult reading properly!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/10 01:31:59
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2017/10/10 01:28:39
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Mr. Shine wrote:1. No.
2. No.
The reason the second answer is no is because a shared lack of <REGIMENT> keyword is self-evidently not a shared <REGIMENT> keyword.
I disagree with answer number 2. It says they must have the same regiment, if the bearer has one. Thus, if the bearer has no regiment, there should not be any regimental restriction.
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Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts |
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2017/10/10 01:29:52
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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Cream Tea wrote:I disagree with answer number 2. It says they must have the same regiment, if the bearer has one. Thus, if the bearer has no regiment, there should not be any regimental restriction.
Whoops, missed that bit! My apologies, quite correct!
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2017/10/10 02:11:14
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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They're Auxilia, not a Regiment.
Essentially, the only restriction is that if you have a Regument you can only bring Regiment buddies with the bearer.
If not, pick whichever INFANTRY unit you like.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2017/10/10 03:28:08
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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While I do not have a direct Rule I can quote, take a look at Page 132-133, 141 and 134-136.
These pages detail the Stratagems, Regimental Doctrines and Warlord Traits available to the Astra Militarum Army... so there is too many references to quote directly.
Not only are the AERONAUTICA IMPERIALIS, MILITARUM AUXILLA, OFFICIO PREFECTUS and SCOLASTICA PSYKANA keywords missing from all the sections we would expect such Regiments to be mentioned, such as having a Doctrine, the one place they are mentioned is very interesting. While it doesn't specifically state 'these are not Regiments' it does indicate how the Authors are treating a whole bunch of units as Attached to 'Regiments.' It isn't proof written in stone by the hand of an Author themselves, but it the closest I can scrape together without requiring Players to read the first few hundred pages of fluff and understand the lore behind an army they might not not even be collecting....
Which could be dangerous as well, as a quick flick through left me wondering if MILITARUM TEMPESTUS was a Regiment....
The chart on page7 lists them along side MILITARUM AUXILLA and has both directly under control of the ASTRA MILITARUM, highlighting that these are also their own organizations... which, fluff wise, they are. This would have been a nice chart to point to in order to argue that OFFICIO PREFECTUS was actually a 'branch of the Departmento Munitorum' on equal footing as the whole of the Astra Militarum, as it clearly shows this as well, but it raises more questions when our Opponents see the other branches listed. Once more we return to having to sit them down in order to read the entire book and starts to understand how you can have a branch of the military that is also a Regiment of the same name....
This might be something the Authors should consider:
Why can't we have some sort of Detachment Keyword box on these Datasheets?
If we flicked open a Datasheet for, say, the Tempestor Prime and saw MILITARUM TEMPESTUS within the Detachment Keyword box, and OFFICIO PREFECTUS in the Faction Keyword box along side IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM... it becomes clear on a quick pass through what the most important Keyword for list building is!
For all the 'Advisors and Auxilla' Units, this Detachment Keyword box would have been empty and the Opening Posters question never would have occurred.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/10 16:59:43
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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2017/10/10 09:46:11
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Imperium 2 FAQ is explicit that "Officio Prefectus" and "Militarum Auxilla" are not regiments. Meanwhile the beginning of the army list in the codex says that Scions treat MILITARUM TEMPESTUS as a <REGIMENT> keyword.
Also, If Militarum Auxilla were a regiment then you'd be able to choose it for a Company Commander and give orders to Bullgryn. The only thing that the codex tells us we can't use is MILITARUM TEMPESTUS, although other army lists like the DKoK one in the FW index also say that we can't use certain other regiments too.
The dagger rules strike me as very clear -- if the bearer lacks a <REGIMENT> keyword, then he can bring along any INFANTRY unit in your army (not just <REGIMENT> and not just ASTRA MILITARUM).
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2017/10/10 17:04:01
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Nice for the Index to do that, wonder why they didn't carry such over into the Codex as such a clarification would be an easy quote.
Still, having something within the book that outright states 'this is a list of regiments' would till have been nice. I don't remember any of the books doing something similar either, every single one of them have some sort of <Detachment> keyword that will play a vital role in determining what Rules we have access to but nothing to highlight which Keyword this is. Such keywords are always found along side other Faction Keywords, making it hard to determine which is which. It always comes down to us having to review what <detachment> keywords lists they have provided, such as Doctrines in this case, and then making the logical leap that only things on that list are <detachments>. If it is going to be such a vital piece of information to know, it would be nice to have it highlighted better on the datasheets.
Good catch on treating MILITARUM TEMPESTUS as a <REGIMENT> though.
I was going to raise the question of 'what else could the dagger be talking about,' but there are Characters in this book which have <Forge World>. This made it entirely too easy to argue that the dagger is only referring to the one or two characters that are 'Auxillia' while having a very clear non-regiment <Detachment> Keyword. Didn't bring me any closer to figuring out a way to prove that OFFICIO PREFECTUS was a non-regiment <Detachment-level> Keyword, but I really do believe that is exactly what it is from all the circumstantial evidence presented in my previous post. If it was a <REGIMENT> then it stands to reason it would have it's own Doctrine, Stratagems and Traits along side everyone else's.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/10 17:16:43
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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2017/10/10 18:00:46
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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If it doesn't have one of the named Regiments as a Keyword (Cadia, Tallarn, Mordian, Catachan, Valhallan, Armageddon, Vistroyan, Militarum Tempestus), or the blank slate <REGIMENT> Keyword, it doesn't have Regiment abilities. It's not super tough to work backwards.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2017/10/10 20:01:30
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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JohnnyHell,
On what page is a list of Regiments?
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8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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2017/10/10 20:07:19
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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It's like you don't read my posts. Please read it again and point out where I said there was a definitive list of all regiments ever. Please stop strawmanning my posts.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2017/10/12 01:32:40
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Thank you all for your responses. Glad to hear that you're on board with allowing a Commissar to bear it and bring any Infantry unit along with. I was leaning that way but wanted to clear it with the masses first before moving forward. The points confirming how I read the OFFICIO PREFECTUS keyword as a non-regiment keyword coupled with the ruling in the FAQ that I wasn't aware was out bolster that assertion nicely.
Much appreciated!
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2017/10/12 01:54:55
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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RAW I think its clear a Priest can take the dagger as well, and he can bring along a unit of crusaders or Ogryns. Either of which would be awesome.
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2017/10/17 12:12:29
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Or ideally an astropath with a unit of crusaders
Although not in itc events because they have made it regiment only
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/18 10:49:09
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2017/10/18 20:59:56
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
Philly
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U02dah4 wrote:Or ideally an astropath with a unit of crusaders
Although not in itc events because they have made it regiment only
Never been one to hate on FLG, but I don't like that ruling at all. Their basically changing a rule.
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"It's bigger then all of us. Winston's in the air duct with a badger." |
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2017/10/19 07:27:39
Subject: Astra Militarum Heirloom Question: The Dagger of Tu'Sakh
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Agreed it's a terrible ruling
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