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Had an instance in a game the other day where one of my GK units manifested Vortex of Doom over 3 or 4 Deathguard units. We were a little unclear regarding exactly how many rolls should be made for mortal wounds. There are two ways I read it based off the wording in the codex:

1)Roll one D3, that result applies to every unit affected.
2)Roll a D3 for each individual unit.

For what it's worth, I felt it was probably #1, but my opponents both felt it was #2 so we played it that way.

***Edit: Switched up 1 & 2 in my last sentence.

It's #1.

The rule says "That model’s unit, and every other unit within 3" of that model suffers D3 mortal wounds."

It's telling you to roll a single die and then apply the result to all units. If it needed different results, it would say to roll a D3 for every unit.

I'd go with #2 - it's the same wording as vehicles exploding and that's not a 'roll once apply to all' situation. Indeed the rules tend to specify when to roll once and apply to many, not the other way around. As written it's a roll per unit affected.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
that's not a 'roll once apply to all' situation.

Can you provide a citation for that? Because to me "each unit within 6" suffers D3 mortal wounds" is the same as "each unit within 6" suffers X mortal wounds". X doesn't change between units, it's determined once and applied to all units.

Once you roll the dice, the rule becomes "each unit within 6" suffers 3 mortal wounds".

D3 means random. Why do you assume it means 'apply one roll to all'?

IIRC it's some of the Ork units that states to use the same D3 result for all shots for a unit, vs rolling per model.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
D3 means random. Why do you assume it means 'apply one roll to all'?

IIRC it's some of the Ork units that states to use the same D3 result for all shots for a unit, vs rolling per model.

That's because without that rule it WOULD be individual. It's to determine the number of shots a weapon makes (The Loota's Deffgun) which is Heavy D3. To prevent you rolling 15D3 they use a special rule to turn it into 1 roll.

Can you cite something saying that you roll once and fix for a rule like this? Because otherwise each unit suffers D3 wounds, and D3 is inherently not a fixed value. So each unit suffers a random number of wounds, rolled separately. It's how people I know play the exploding vehicles rules and this is the same wording. Can you cite something to support your 'roll and fix' interpretation? Otherwise, at face value, the rule literally tells you to apply a random amount of damage to each unit.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Can you cite something saying that you roll once and fix for a rule like this

English grammar and substitution.

You take the rule "each unit within 6" suffers D3 mortal wounds", then roll a dice and get a 3. The rule now says "each unit within 6" suffers 3 mortal wounds".

Why are you assuming substitution? Nothing tells you to substitute. D3 is a defined value, albeit an instruction to generate a random number. You should roll per unit as I understand it by English comprehension, not roll once and substitute. Nothing in the rules or FAQs tells you to play it how you are AFAIK.

Can you cite anything telling you to fix random numbers instead of just generating each time? If it was the way you say there'd need to be an instruction to do it that way and I can't find one.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Can you cite anything telling you to fix random numbers instead of just generating each time? If it was the way you say there'd need to be an instruction to do it that way and I can't find one.

The same place you're getting the instruction to magically roll multiple dice despite the rule calling for only a single roll.

Yeah I see how you can read it that way but no. You roll the D3 for every unit affected not once and apply it to all. It is the same as a vehicle exploding.

Is there perhaps precedence with another similar rule that GW has FAQ'd?

In my FLGS and with friends, I've always seen it rolled on a per unit basis and no-one has ever questioned it. As stated in the rules, each unit takes D3 damage, D3 is not a value, but an instruction to generate a value, so as you go around to apply the damage to each unit, you must comply with the instruction to inflict D3 damage, hence rolling a D3 to generate a result to apply.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Can you cite anything telling you to fix random numbers instead of just generating each time? If it was the way you say there'd need to be an instruction to do it that way and I can't find one.

The same place you're getting the instruction to magically roll multiple dice despite the rule calling for only a single roll.

Tone down the hostility please - 'Magically' is unnecessary. Just argue in good faith please. You can't cite backup for your position, so don't get snippy.

Oh look, other people are playing it as roll per unit as intended.

Is everyone really this forgetful?

In 7th we had this exact same issue with Purifying Flame. There were threads here about it. GW issued a FAQ saying you roll for separately for each enemy unit and not once for all units.

So pretty sure this is the same.

Part of the reason I assumed it was #1 is because it is worded very similarly to 5E D&D's Magic Missle spell which was later explained to be one roll by the devs.

I didn't recall the Purifying Flame issue from 7th, but that's good to know!

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:
Part of the reason I assumed it was #1 is because it is worded very similarly to 5E D&D's Magic Missle spell which was later explained to be one roll by the devs.

I didn't recall the Purifying Flame issue from 7th, but that's good to know!

As a D&D player since 2nd, I can definitely see why you'd rely on that. Unfortunately, GW is nowhere near as good at rules writing as TSR/Wizards :(

Yeah D&D clarifications don't have bearing on GW games! :-)

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Yeah D&D clarifications don't have bearing on GW games! :-)

Heh, yeah, more of a frame of reference than anything else.

I'll probably play it as Audustum mentioned especially since that's how my fellow players read it last time anyway.

Thanks all!

It is unclear .....

Rolling for each has the impact of decreasing variance and so is less swing however rolling individually takes more time

I think I would generally prefer the less swingy option unless I was rushed for time best agree with your opponent though. Neither advantages either player

#2. Individual units must roll to see how many wounds are allocated to them.

The wording is very concise and definitive.

"...and every other unit within 3" of that model suffers X mortal wounds."

If, X = 2, each unit suffers 2 mortal wounds.
If X = ?, each unit suffers randomly generated value from 1 to 3 mortal wounds.

Each unit suffers randomly generated no. of mortal wounds.

For #1 to hold true, the sentence needs to read "... and ALL others units within 3" of that model suffers d3 mortal wounds."
'Every' is collective group of individual parts (units).

U02dah4 wrote:
It is unclear .....

Rolling for each has the impact of decreasing variance and so is less swing however rolling individually takes more time

I think I would generally prefer the less swingy option unless I was rushed for time best agree with your opponent though. Neither advantages either player

Well, there would be a small advantage for the caster to only roll 1 die due to the Re-Roll Stratagem. If you have to roll multiple d3's you could only re-roll 1 if it turned out bad. If you only roll 1d3 for all units, however, you could easily CP a 1 into a 2 or a 3.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You can't cite backup for your position,

Neither have you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Oh look, other people are playing it as roll per unit as intended.

Intended by whom? No one I know is playing it the way you describe.. They are making one roll and applying it to everything.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You can't cite backup for your position,

Neither have you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Oh look, other people are playing it as roll per unit as intended.

Intended by whom? No one I know is playing it the way you describe.. They are making one roll and applying it to everything.

I've cited my reasoning. If you've any for yours let's discuss.

Based on existing rules that use D3s, when Games Workshop wants a single result to count for all models, it tells you to roll the D3 first and then to apply the effect. Like how AdMech canticles or similar start of turn effects ask that you Roll a D3 at this time and then do something with it. Asking to roll after declaring each unit would mean each unit receives its own roll.

I think this topic proves that GW needs to come out with irontight rules that cover all possible understandings, even if doing so would seem excessive to some people.

Reminds me of this, which I'm sure will be the wording of future rules in another edition. Just to ensure no one mistakes their normal ability to breathe with this not so obvious exception.

 Arkaine wrote:
Based on existing rules that use D3s, when Games Workshop wants a single result to count for all models, it tells you to roll the D3 first and then to apply the effect.

This guy gets it.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

I've cited my reasoning. If you've any for yours let's discuss.

If you think you cited something, you aren't familiar with the definition of that word.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

I've cited my reasoning. If you've any for yours let's discuss.

If you think you cited something, you aren't familiar with the definition of that word.

If you wanna just post ad hominems that's fine, or we could discuss the rules? Show me your working for your point of view and we can discuss. If you just attack without any reasoning of your own it's not productive or fun to debate with you. .

The rule, similar to transports exploding, Perils effects on units etc. tells us units within X" suffer D3 wounds.

Each unit suffers wounds. How many? D3 each. Unit A suffers D3 wounds. Unit B suffers D3 wounds. Unit C suffers D3 wounds. How many is D3? Oh I roll a dice and halve, it rounding up, for each. D3 is not a fixed value so why should A, B and C suffer the same number of wounds when we're told each suffers D3 wounds?

Look at the rules for Advancing or Charging, that tell you to roll dice then apply that to each mode in the unit. That's how they show 'roll once apply to all' in this ruleset. The rule being discussed has no such wording.

I maintain that as worded you apply D3 damage to each unit, i.e. a random value to each unit

Please feel free to show me your working if you have a different view. Happy to discuss and debate, not so keen on posts like your last.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Each unit suffers wounds. How many? D3 each. Unit A suffers D3 wounds. Unit B suffers D3 wounds. Unit C suffers D3 wounds. How many is D3? Oh I roll a dice and halve, it rounding up, for each. D3 is not a fixed value so why should A, B and C suffer the same number of wounds when we're told each suffers D3 wounds?

And where's your citation on that? There's nothing in the rules specifically stating it's d3 each and not d3. There's nothing in the rules indicating either argument.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Each unit suffers wounds. How many? D3 each. Unit A suffers D3 wounds. Unit B suffers D3 wounds. Unit C suffers D3 wounds. How many is D3? Oh I roll a dice and halve, it rounding up, for each. D3 is not a fixed value so why should A, B and C suffer the same number of wounds when we're told each suffers D3 wounds?

And where's your citation on that? There's nothing in the rules specifically stating it's d3 each and not d3. There's nothing in the rules indicating either argument.

Because the rule states that "every other unit" and not "all other units"

Both 'every' and 'each' is semantically plural but grammatically singular. 'All' is plural semantically and grammatically.

The phrase "every other unit... suffers d3 mortal wounds" say that each unit is subject to randomly generated (values from 1-3) number of mortal wounds.

The phrase "all other unit... suffers d3 mortal wounds" say that a randomly generated (value from 1-3) number of mortal wounds are inflicted on all units.