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Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Wow! , I tried a few tournaments.

The spam is ridiculous , why do tournaments allow spam , or why doesn't the game limit stuff ,8th seems like you can fit in whatever you want.?
Find the broken/too good for it's points stuff and take 10 of them , it's ridiculous.




   
Made in au
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Tournaments naturally attract optimised lists that use the points as efficiently as possible for the best outcome, will always lead to finding the "best" units in the codex and then just taking multiples of them.



"Look upon me and know that I can slay you at will. You have no defence save one: to look into the darkness at the back of your own mind. There, you will find Father Nurgle waiting to offer you life in return for your submission. Deny him, and you are mine."
- Typhus; Herald of Nurgle, Host of the Destroyer Hive  
   
Made in us
Leader of the Sept






Ok.....
Tournaments are about testing your best list against another opponents best list and finding out who is best/better
Everyone can bring cheese/spam
If you cant handle it, dont go.

Bullockist wrote:I think a mini of hotsauceman1 rending the overly serious posters of dakka in twain with a flexing of humourous intent would be a winning mini.

4000pts 2000 1500
 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok.....
Tournaments are about testing your best list against another opponents best list and finding out who is best/better
.


Best/better at what ? Cheese and Spam ?

   
Made in au
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





keithandor wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok.....
Tournaments are about testing your best list against another opponents best list and finding out who is best/better
.


Best/better at what ? Cheese and Spam ?




Welcome to competitive play. Lists at a tournament will always include just spamming whatever is the "best" units to take in the codex.

If you want narrative driven lists and games then I'd suggest sticking to campaigns etc rather than a tournament.


"Look upon me and know that I can slay you at will. You have no defence save one: to look into the darkness at the back of your own mind. There, you will find Father Nurgle waiting to offer you life in return for your submission. Deny him, and you are mine."
- Typhus; Herald of Nurgle, Host of the Destroyer Hive  
   
Made in se
Strangely Beautiful Daemonette of Slaanesh






If you limit one thing people will take the next best thing.
Since the point of a tournament is to win, this is what you have to do.
And if you keep limiting stuff it comes to a point where 1 guy decides what is fun for all the rest of the players because he believes he knows best.
   
Made in us
Leader of the Sept






Spam doesnt equal Ability to win. An inexperianced player can still lose with spam.

Bullockist wrote:I think a mini of hotsauceman1 rending the overly serious posters of dakka in twain with a flexing of humourous intent would be a winning mini.

4000pts 2000 1500
 
   
Made in au
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Spam doesnt equal Ability to win. An inexperianced player can still lose with spam.


Also very much this. Anyone can put together a net list they found online. You also need to know how the combos work with the synergy of the army and how to handle the other side of the table as well.

"Look upon me and know that I can slay you at will. You have no defence save one: to look into the darkness at the back of your own mind. There, you will find Father Nurgle waiting to offer you life in return for your submission. Deny him, and you are mine."
- Typhus; Herald of Nurgle, Host of the Destroyer Hive  
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





The golden rule of competitive play: if everything is cheesy, nothing is.

If you're not at least trying to bring the best stuff available you're just not playing the same game as everyone else at the tournament.
   
Made in gb
Imperial Admiral





Glasgow

keithandor wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok.....
Tournaments are about testing your best list against another opponents best list and finding out who is best/better
.


Best/better at what ? Cheese and Spam ?


You're welcome to put together a spam list and go win a GT if you think that's all it takes...
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




 Scott-S6 wrote:
keithandor wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok.....
Tournaments are about testing your best list against another opponents best list and finding out who is best/better
.


Best/better at what ? Cheese and Spam ?


You're welcome to put together a spam list and go win a GT if you think that's all it takes...


Yeah that's something people forget.

"Guy with Guliman won tournament! GulimanSpammer!!" they cry, ignoring the fact the guy had to get through Mortarion, Magnus and a couple other Guliman armies to get to the top.

   
Made in no
Regular Dakkanaut






keithandor wrote:

Find the broken/too good for it's points stuff and take 10 of them , it's ridiculous.






that is how ALL turnys are for ALL mini games.
by doing it like that it comes down to the players ability to use the army and the dice roll/reroll.

like it has been said, if you dont like it dont play them. stick to campains that is fluff driven.

darkswordminiatures.com
Collects: 40K;Cult Mechanicus. GF9;Tanks. Flames of War. Wings of Glory. Warmachine. SW Armada. 
   
Made in ru
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






 FrozenDwarf wrote:
players ability to use ...the dice roll/reroll.


mad skill
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





 koooaei wrote:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:
players ability to use ...the dice roll/reroll.


mad skill


I mean, this is the real reason why Warhammer can't be that competitive. But if even Pokemon gets grand tournaments then there's clearly enough people who don't mind skill not 100% determining the outcome of a competition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 08:29:30


 
   
Made in no
Regular Dakkanaut






 Arachnofiend wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:
players ability to use ...the dice roll/reroll.


mad skill


I mean, this is the real reason why Warhammer can't be that competitive. But if even Pokemon gets grand tournaments then there's clearly enough people who don't mind skill not 100% determining the outcome of a competition.


i think, that the random aspect of the dice roll/card shuffle is that tiny aspect that keeps players attatched to ouer games. you can reduce the randomness of the dice roll whit the rerolls but there is allways the chanse that you can roll 1 on the reroll aswell. while good players moust likely has a backup plan if that happends, it does mean that they have to (hopefully) think a bit.
just imagine the insane amount of perfect balance ouer games would need if the dice was removed.

same whit cards. you first hand can be good, but you have no guarantee that the next 5 cards in the deck will be nothing but mana...

cuz if it dident, games whit a random factor in it would not exist.

darkswordminiatures.com
Collects: 40K;Cult Mechanicus. GF9;Tanks. Flames of War. Wings of Glory. Warmachine. SW Armada. 
   
Made in gb
Xenohunter with First Contact





All forms of competitive gaming are like this.

In card games, people construct decks with multiples of good cards to ensure they draw them during setup. The deck doesn't "work" unless you get a combo going.

In online gaming character "builds" people max out one attribute or skill or whatever at the expense of others.

Basically having an army that is "quite good" at attacking AND "quite good" at defending AND "quite good" at taking objectives means you are going to be very bad at winning.

Mostly.

I am sure GW want people to bring "Take All Comers" lists to tournaments to break the spam meta, but they aren't doing it particularly well. Admittedly, it's hard to do as there are always more efficient units that can be played instead of the less efficient ones... and oh look, I've got "spam"
   
Made in fr
Dakka Veteran




Do you expect people to drive VW Kombis at formula one races? It's basically the same.
The Kombi is fun for vacation with friends, but not so much for races. The same way some units are great to play for fun with friends, but not to bring to tournaments.
   
Made in us
Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Tampa, FL

What is wrong with tournaments is that 40K is a terrible set of rules for a competitive game yet people want to pretend it can be one. Tournament list for 40K are absolutely disgusting probably more so than any other game on the market even though those games have their share of spam and min-maxing.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





 FrozenDwarf wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:
players ability to use ...the dice roll/reroll.


mad skill


I mean, this is the real reason why Warhammer can't be that competitive. But if even Pokemon gets grand tournaments then there's clearly enough people who don't mind skill not 100% determining the outcome of a competition.


i think, that the random aspect of the dice roll/card shuffle is that tiny aspect that keeps players attatched to ouer games. you can reduce the randomness of the dice roll whit the rerolls but there is allways the chanse that you can roll 1 on the reroll aswell. while good players moust likely has a backup plan if that happends, it does mean that they have to (hopefully) think a bit.
just imagine the insane amount of perfect balance ouer games would need if the dice was removed.

same whit cards. you first hand can be good, but you have no guarantee that the next 5 cards in the deck will be nothing but mana...

cuz if it dident, games whit a random factor in it would not exist.


I agree that the randomness can be good for a game - it's part of what separates Warhammer from just overly complicated chess, after all - but I do think that any level of randomness makes a game less competitive. Even in games as random as 40k the better player will usually come out on top, but for true competitiveness I'm not sure if "usually" cuts it. In games with zero random factors (in a modern context this is most common among video games, I think) you know that the person who played better came out on top, beyond a shadow of a doubt. This certainty can be crucial at the pinnacle of play where the difference in skill can be incredibly narrow.

Of course, being more competitive doesn't necessarily make for a better game. League of Legends fits basically every criteria I would make for a game being competitive and League sucks!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/12 09:59:00


 
   
Made in se
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




 Arachnofiend wrote:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
 FrozenDwarf wrote:
players ability to use ...the dice roll/reroll.


mad skill


I mean, this is the real reason why Warhammer can't be that competitive. But if even Pokemon gets grand tournaments then there's clearly enough people who don't mind skill not 100% determining the outcome of a competition.


i think, that the random aspect of the dice roll/card shuffle is that tiny aspect that keeps players attatched to ouer games. you can reduce the randomness of the dice roll whit the rerolls but there is allways the chanse that you can roll 1 on the reroll aswell. while good players moust likely has a backup plan if that happends, it does mean that they have to (hopefully) think a bit.
just imagine the insane amount of perfect balance ouer games would need if the dice was removed.

same whit cards. you first hand can be good, but you have no guarantee that the next 5 cards in the deck will be nothing but mana...

cuz if it dident, games whit a random factor in it would not exist.


I agree that the randomness can be good for a game - it's part of what separates Warhammer from just overly complicated chess, after all - but I do think that any level of randomness makes a game less competitive. Even in games as random as 40k the better player will usually come out on top, but for true competitiveness I'm not sure if "usually" cuts it. In games with zero random factors (in a modern context this is most common among video games, I think) you know that the person who played better came out on top, beyond a shadow of a doubt. This certainty can be crucial at the pinnacle of play where the difference in skill can be incredibly narrow.

Of course, being more competitive doesn't necessarily make for a better game. League of Legends fits basically every criteria I would make for a game being competitive and League sucks!


A game can be very random and still considered a competitive discipline, main example being poker. The skill-cap is not determined by how random a game is, the main difference is that the winrates of the best players and worst players will approach 50% with more randomness. I agree that it is more satisfying to be better in a game where that means winning close to 100% of the time but 40k still has a high skill-cap nonetheless. If they removed too much of the randomness it would be very difficult to have fun at your FLGS since the distribution of skill level would be too diverse to find roughly equal games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/12 10:14:09


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




keithandor wrote:
Wow! , I tried a few tournaments.

The spam is ridiculous , why do tournaments allow spam , or why doesn't the game limit stuff ,8th seems like you can fit in whatever you want.?
Find the broken/too good for it's points stuff and take 10 of them , it's ridiculous.





I've played and done MTG and Yugioh tournaments. What's your point?

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 jy2 wrote:
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 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos






In my opinion the skill in competitive 40k comes in risk management and understanding how complicated units are likely to interact with each other. I think managing the risks of dice rolls are interesting, and I generally enjoy competitive 40k.

Spam is less interesting to play against, and the new detachments have basically allowed near-taxless spamming with formations like 'vanguard' and 'spearhead'. It's not an easy problem to fix tbh. If you limit players to say 'no more than 2 of each unit type' then you screw over the armies with fewer options. If you charge progressively more per unit - (e.g. one shadowsword costs 405pts, the next will cost you 430pts, the next 455pts) then this also helps armies with more unit choices. For example, guard can just run, say, a shadowsword, stormlord and baneblade for little change in damage output. Spam just seems to be a fact of life without a complicated rules system to push players to diversify. The CP-rich detachments help somewhat to be fair - at least anyone wanting a brigade will HAVE to bring units from each category.

What I'm a bit worried about in 8th though is that GW is turning a simple game into a much more complicated one, and this is going to create imbalances. Guard can now combine orders, stratagems, regiment traits and other buffs to create crazy synergies that aren't particularly easy to balance.

For example, the cadian stratagem that gives +1 to hit against a single unit is very tame in a small game with 4-5 units, but could be devastating if used on a key unit in a 2K point game. Or using stratagems/buffs/doctrines on baneblade-equivalents to get an enormous payout for the investment.

Another silly one is the poxwalker build in death guard where you can reanimate all your cultists within 7" and ALSO hide the unit of poxwalkers that is doing it from all shooting. Not saying that it's game breaking, but it clearly makes game balancing a lot harder. Again, both of those stratagems are reasonably tame alone, but taken together they're very strong.

In short, I think competitive 8th is going to get less balanced as opposed to more unless chapter approved is VERY well done, and all codexes in the future get similar utility from stratagems / doctrines.

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Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

People are there to win and you don't do that with fluff, if spam wins then you spam like a mofo simple as that.

   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran




hobojebus wrote:
People are there to win and you don't do that with fluff, if spam wins then you spam like a mofo simple as that.



Yes, but if the best lists all have like two or three units then you may have a problem with the design of the game. Variety is fun because adapting your play to every opponent is more stimulating than doing the same thing over and over. Optimal lists having a core of two units of the same type, the best two HQ choices for those units (depending on loadout etc) and then four other unit choices done to playstyle and meta would in my opinion not be as big of a problem as optimal lists having the cheapest HQ, six of the same unit and then the two cheapest other units to make for a legal list.


Maybe tournament organisers can alleviate spam problems to some degree by doing a lot of playtesting and deciding on additional limitations on unit numbers or detachments or whatever but they're a lot less centrally organised to the ecology of the game than the actual game designers so their ability to fix a wonky game is limited.
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

Gws devs are crap let's make no bones about that all the talented guys left long ago, their balance is abysmal and inconsistent.

Its not the players fault that the lists they are given only lend themselves to a few optimal builds.

   
Made in us
Executing Exarch






Welcome to Warhammer 40K --- a game which was never designed for competitions or tournaments, even now when they have tournament/competition players play-test it apparently. GW sells models and miniatures with a loosely designed wargame around the fringes to boost sales. Since day one they've constantly said tournaments etc. were never the goal.

So you're using an item not intended for tournaments...and wondering why it's not very good when used for tournaments.

 
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

This again.

Spam isn't bad. Spam isn't the problem.

GW writing consistently terrible rulebooks with awful balance is the problem. Spam as you call it is a symptom, especially when its nothing but the same 3 powerful units copy pasted. For everyone else, spam is fluffy, symmetrical, redundant, and appealing. Lists restricted to 1 of everything will only slightly shift the power levels to picking one of the best from several books and allying them together. It doesn't fix anything.

People who hate spam actually hate poor balance. An IG list with a few chimeras supported by a squadron of Russes and flanked by a squadron of Hellhounds is spammy (only 3 unit types on the table, 4 if you count the embarked infantry) and each unit type has 3 of the same model, but its fluffy and not broken.

Don't blanket ban/artificially limit everything because of some balance issues with specific units. Fix the broken units and everything else falls into place.

Say it again with me. Spam isn't the issue. GW's poor rules writing and balance is the issue.

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Made in gb
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






keithandor wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok.....
Tournaments are about testing your best list against another opponents best list and finding out who is best/better
.


Best/better at what ? Cheese and Spam ?



It's been mentioned, but try taking any GT-winning list and win.

While there are lists and combinations that are CLEARLY better than others, that doesn't mean player skill isn't involved, from tactical to strategic decisions.

W/D/L with my Alpha Legion post-codex: 0/0/7

Tabled T3: 1
Tabled T4: 4
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Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Oh boy you should see MTG tournaments. in one case among the 4 semifinalists there were 16 copies of Jace the Mind Sculptor between them.

For reference, a single player is only allowed a maximum of 4. And Jace, at the time, was one of the most expensive, non reserve list rares.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Literally the point of a tournament is to bring the "BEST" list and play with the best tactics you know/can do.

If the best lists are spam, then that means the game/units are not balanced, it has nothing to do with the tournaments.


If you dont like spam then you should do Highlander Tournaments

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