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I have an army designed around my Space Marines, but with Super-heavy support. It looks like this:

Space Marine Battalion

Captain (upgraded to chapter master)
Chaplain

2x basic 5-man Tactical squad
5-man scout squad w/bolters

Vanguard Veteran squad with jumppacks. 3 TH/SS, 2 powersword/plasma pistol

Land Raider Crusader
Centurion Devastator squad w/lascannons and missile launchers

Stormtalon fighter w/Skyhammer missiles


Normally, I ally an Imperial Knight Crusader (with RFBC/Avenger Gatling cannon) to this force in order to get lots more firepower and draw attention away from the LRC and Centurions. However, with the release of the IG codex, it looks like a Shadowsword might be a better choice as a superheavy ally. The Volcano cannon does much more damage to, say, Mortarion than does anything in the Imperial Knight Crusader repertoire. The downside is the Shadowsword can't leave combat and still shoot, and doesn't get as many powerful attacks in close combat.

Which do you think would be more advantageous, and why?

dadx6 wrote:

Normally, I ally an Imperial Knight Crusader (with RFBC/Avenger Gatling cannon) to this force in order to get lots more firepower and draw attention away from the LRC and Centurions. However, with the release of the IG codex, it looks like a Shadowsword might be a better choice as a superheavy ally. The Volcano cannon does much more damage to, say, Mortarion than does anything in the Imperial Knight Crusader repertoire. The downside is the Shadowsword can't leave combat and still shoot, and doesn't get as many powerful attacks in close combat.

Good sir, you are misinformed;

1. The Shadowsword *can* withdraw from combat and then shoot/charge just like a knight. it does not get to step over infantry to withdraw, which can matter if you're surrounded. It can also stay in combat and shoot normally if it so pleases.
2. It's slightly stronger but has 3 less attacks in combat. The problem is hitting on 5s which with a stratagem becomes 2+s

The issue you'll face is that you're not going to get a very efficient shadowsword unless you pony up for a supreme command detachment for the regimental doctrines; making a worthwhile shadowsword something in the region of 700 points.

In that case you're better going for the Knight, or even 2 gallants.

Forgive my ignorance, but why wouldn't you be able to take advantage of Regimental Doctrines with a single Super-Heavy?

Even without the Regimental Doctrines, wouldn't the Shadowsword be a more powerful addition to the army than the Imperial Knight?

I am eager to learn!

dadx6 wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but why wouldn't you be able to take advantage of Regimental Doctrines with a single Super-Heavy?

Even without the Regimental Doctrines, wouldn't the Shadowsword be a more powerful addition to the army than the Imperial Knight?

I am eager to learn!

Superheavy Aux detachments don't benefit from regimental doctrines; hence to take one and get a doctrine (which you'll want to) the only alternative is the supreme command, filled with 3 company commanders, or tank commanders if you want some tasty russ goodness.

The un upgraded shadow sword does, on average only 7 damage to one failed save with the Vcannon before doctrine silliness (and kills one non-primaris marine with the hbolter). *with* upgrades, which cost 138~ it'll do 6 damage with its lascannons against nearly anything in the game , kill 5 marines with the hbolters and then also do the 7 damage with the VCannon. With upgrades and doctrines (Cadian specifically ) i've taken on a 1.5k pure primaris army with nothing else and won, since the company commanders never got in range of anything to shoot.

Around now is when the 'its a big investment on one big target' folks come out of the woodwork and whilst they have a valid point; the pure damage output of the upgraded SHTs compared to knights means that in many cases, and especially with low drop armies getting the first turn, the anti-shadowsord assets in the opponent's army never get the chance to take it out by virtue of being outranged and out synergy'd.

To be fair, you can just take 3 primaris psykers for 120 pts to fill a supreme command detachment. Really useful amount of buffs too.

Depends on your target.

If you are facing a lot of troops, a knight with RFBC and Gatling will do better.

If you have big targets like morty/magnus or other heavy armor then Shadowsword. I would take it bare bones. And sup detachment with 3 primaris psykers is good. You can give it a 2+ armor and -1 to be shot at so it can survive longer. Make it Cadia for rerolls of 1.

Both come out to nearly the same price at that point

This is more and more persuasive that I should drop the Imperial Knight and get a Shadowsword. If I added a Supreme Command Detachment, can I also plug in a Tech-Priest Enginseer and use the Valhallan Regimental Doctrine?

 Trickstick wrote:
To be fair, you can just take 3 primaris psykers for 120 pts to fill a supreme command detachment. Really useful amount of buffs too.

This. The psykers can cast one power to give the enemy -1 to hit the shadowsword, plus another to give it +1 armour save.

Not sure what to do with the 3rd HQ, but you could do a lot worse than a tank commander. Or just take another psyker. 40 point smiters are always welcome in a list. Then you've got options like a Tempestor Prime (with or without a command squad) who you can drop onto an objective or the relic, as required.

dadx6 wrote:
This is more and more persuasive that I should drop the Imperial Knight and get a Shadowsword. If I added a Supreme Command Detachment, can I also plug in a Tech-Priest Enginseer and use the Valhallan Regimental Doctrine?

Yes.

The Valhallan doctrine, with an Engineseer, on a Baneblade-variant, looks to be designed to squeeze tears out of the most battle-hardened opponent.

Now the only barrier is persuading the wife that I need a Baneblade.

dadx6 wrote:
Now the only barrier is persuading the wife that I need a Baneblade.

Isn't the Baneblade one of the most point/£ efficient models that GW sells? Also, you can build it into 8 different variants if you are careful. It is probably one of the best value for money kits that there is.

str00dles1 wrote:
Depends on your target.

If you are facing a lot of troops, a knight with RFBC and Gatling will do better.

I'd like to point out....The shadowsword is actually slightly better against troops as well

Knight Crusader with RFBC, avenger, HF, and 2 stubbers totals to 540 points
Shadowsword with full sponsons also totals 540

On average, the knight will kill about 14 conscripts assuming in range with the heavy flamer
the shadowsword will kill about 16 conscripts assuming Cadian doctrine

Against Marine equivalents, the knight only kills about 8 while the tank kills about 11

And then obviously against big tough multi-wound targets, the volcano cannon is far and away superior

After analyzing this I would say that the shadowsword's shooting ability is better than the knights against virtually all target types.
The knight has other advantages though such as being more competent in close combat and having an invul save

One game report from a random guy on the Internet is nothing to base a major decision, on, but I am loving my Shadowsword! Today, it killed a Chaos Knight in one volley, then a Predator in the next turn and then a Rhino full of a juicy squad. Meanwhile the lascannon and twin heavy bolters were shooting at things that got too close.

With sponson weapons you get added versatility that I find is worth the points. Even without Knights/Superheavies around for targets the Volcano Cannon makes an impression on elite infantry/monsters.

I feel like most of the baneblade variants with full sponsons are alot scarier that knights atm.

Shadowsword, Knights just don’t pull weight like they used to

What rides insider the Land Raider?

As for your question, the Stormshadow has more dakka, but needs a HQ to gain its buffs. Baneblades can also easily be rendered useless by its arch-nemesis: Terrain

Stormshadow is an evil Cobra ninja and the nemesis of Snake Eyes. The Shadowsword is a tank with too much gun.

Terrain is an important thing to consider though. Knights can shoot just about anything across the board with their height, while it’s pretty easy to LOS the tank. Against a horde army the tank + assists may slightly beat out the knight in shooting, but then the knight gets its 12 stomp attacks in melee.

That is a good point, the Knight can charge, do decent damage against most targets (even the Crusader) and tie up an enemy unit. If the enemy falls back, that is one less unit shooting, if they don't, your Knight can fallback shoot and charge again in your turn.

Whilst I think the Shadowsword has the edge on firepower, I think that the knight is a little more flexible and the 5++ is handy.

Plus the Knight looks a lot cooler!

If you want to splash out a bit more cash, you can get the parts to do this!