Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The more I play 8th edition, the less satisfied I am with the rules around shooting.

The fact intervening models don't affect cover saves bothers me, not because I got used to them in previous editions. It bothers me because it diminishes the value of screening units. You could have this huge horde of cultists out in front of your main force and your opponent can still shoot up the more elite options without penalty. It relegates screens to the role of bubble wrap against deep strike / charges, in an edition that favors shooting.

I would like it if shooting through units came with some penalty. Proposing the following rules:

1) -1 to hit for each unit blocking your view of an opponent. If you have to shoot through three units, that's a -3 to hit.

2) TLOS applies. If half your unit has an unobstructed view, no modifiers for that half.

3) No penalties for flyers. They are in the air and their view is not obstructed.

4) Applies to vehicles. If you have a Predator driving up behind a mob of cultists, there's still a chance some of those shots go sideways. Likewise, if your unit is in the air, it doesn't benefit from intervening units.

5) Applies to overwatch. If you are charging through another unit to get to another, there's no way for it to shoot back.

This would make screening units more valuable to have while also giving more strategic value to decisions about where to move / target priority. It would cut down on having your best units blown away first turn and make going second a little less dire.

I realize this would make conscript spam a little more powerful, but it would also make things like Lootas more viable options. Feels like it would have an overall positive effect for Xenos armies moreso than Chaos / Imperium.

Thoughts?

Intervening model rule was removed to speed up the game I believe. In my experiences at LGS, about 1.5 hour of typical 3 hour game was spent on arguing about TLOS, which side of the tank is facing who, how many models are under the blast templates, whether a certain model/ruin is indeed obscuring a vehicle 25% or 50%, etc.

Cultists and other cheap units now serve as tools of weight of dice, buffable by certain units. There's very little that exists to serve as screening units in the game anymore - and for good reason IMO.

Take for instance - are guardsmen behind ratlings count for cover or not? What if the ratlings were modeled on a hilltop so that they tower over a sentinel? If the sentinel was modeled with crouching legs, can it hide behind a ogryn?

Punishes some armies far harder than others.

Not a big fan of this.

 skchsan wrote:
Intervening model rule was removed to speed up the game I believe. In my experiences at LGS, about 1.5 hour of typical 3 hour game was spent on arguing about TLOS, which side of the tank is facing who, how many models are under the blast templates, whether a certain model/ruin is indeed obscuring a vehicle 25% or 50%, etc.

Cultists and other cheap units now serve as tools of weight of dice, buffable by certain units. There's very little that exists to serve as screening units in the game anymore - and for good reason IMO.

Take for instance - are guardsmen behind ratlings count for cover or not? What if the ratlings were modeled on a hilltop so that they tower over a sentinel? If the sentinel was modeled with crouching legs, can it hide behind a ogryn?

Well, a way to speed it up would be to say 'intervening models,' maybe skip the TLOS part. Anything that is in the way is assumed to be blocking a clear view and thus conveys some sort of cover. That would eliminate concerns about height / modeling for advantage.

I don't know if I agree with the point that there are few screens in the game. Most CSM players take Cultists for that purpose, and for late game objective rushes. I don't know anyone who uses them offensively.

It just seems unfair that, for assault purposes, intervening models are an impenetrable shield, while they don't exist for the purposes of shooting. I get the point about speeding things up, but there's ways to keep it simple.

-1 to hit is just way too good, especially cumulative.

For armies like orks -1 to hit is devastating, -2 means they cannot shoot those units at all.

Further it allows me to spam cheap screen units to make armies incapable of even effecting anything behind those units. I take 4 units of conscripts and now nothing behind those units can be shot in any way by BS 3+.

Screens are already powerful in this edition, we don't need them to be even stronger.

TLOS applying individually makes the game slower, as now I need to check specifically for every single model.

I think just using it as granting cover (+1 to save) and requiring 50% obscured for units that require that for cover would be fine. Based on your rules conscripts provide a benefit to cover for an imperial knight.

The best way to do this would be for units to have a size characteristic. Either way, I think you rules make shooting even more powerful than it is now.

-1 To hit would be fine if the game was on like a d8+ but on d6 it would be quite a lot.

i feel like at best the only things that should do such a thing are vehicles that cover 50% of the entire unit. giving vehicles a little more utility

also terrain rules need a little bit more work.

Breng77 wrote:
-1 to hit is just way too good, especially cumulative.

For armies like orks -1 to hit is devastating, -2 means they cannot shoot those units at all.

As someone who plays orks, I can say that I'd rather have the -1 to bs because we've been leaning more and more on our assault units than our shooting ones. I'd rather have that extra defense and grots being useful again, and if I really need to kill a screening orks are not short for anti-infantry

 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, a way to speed it up would be to say 'intervening models,' maybe skip the TLOS part. Anything that is in the way is assumed to be blocking a clear view and thus conveys some sort of cover. That would eliminate concerns about height / modeling for advantage.

I don't know if I agree with the point that there are few screens in the game. Most CSM players take Cultists for that purpose, and for late game objective rushes. I don't know anyone who uses them offensively.

It just seems unfair that, for assault purposes, intervening models are an impenetrable shield, while they don't exist for the purposes of shooting. I get the point about speeding things up, but there's ways to keep it simple.

While I do agree that 'intervening models' should be in play, but again it raises the 'how many models are in cover of intervening models' issue. Say you are trying to shoot at a unit of 10x teminators sitting behind 3x bikes. The bikes are placed with its long side perpendicular to your shooting units, while the terminators are bundled up together so that they are completely 'behind' the bikes. Do the terminators gain a 'cover save' modifier in this case? Alternatively, the bikers are now facing its narrow side towards your shooting units and are now only 'intervening' 2 out of 10 terminators. Are the bikes acting as intervening models for the entire unit of terminators, or only for the two models that are obscured? How are the hits handled? Does the entire unit benefit from the two obscured models? If hit, how is the wound allocation handled? Do the non-obscured models take the wound first, so that any subsequent shooting attacks at the terminators are subject to the negative hit modifiers? How do the negative hit modifiers work with sniper weapons and characters? How does intervening model concept work with weapons like mortar or missile barrages?

Currently, the only form of 'screening units in shooting' is when a model obscured more than 50% of a vehicle. (don't quote me on that that might just be ruins/terrain). Blobs are not used as shooting screen (since models don't intervene the LOS) but more as a distraction via massed models/200 dices for +6 shooting, etc.

Certain armies (i.e. tau) actually have 'screening units' that takes hit for the target if wounded.

In assault, depending on the intervening model's unit size, its possibe to lock down the units in the rear through good entry angle and pile in.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
-1 to hit is just way too good, especially cumulative.

For armies like orks -1 to hit is devastating, -2 means they cannot shoot those units at all.

As someone who plays orks, I can say that I'd rather have the -1 to bs because we've been leaning more and more on our assault units than our shooting ones. I'd rather have that extra defense and grots being useful again, and if I really need to kill a screening orks are not short for anti-infantry

The issue is that it drives the army to be completely 1 dimensional, no point in taking any ork shooting units because the whole game is immune to them. Lootas? No point at all. Tankbustas? Nope. Flashgitz? NO. Sure it can help some of the book be better, but it absolutely negates the purpose of any shooting units in the book.

But lets take it away from orks, say Tau mostly BS 4+, I put 3 screens in now I'm immune to shooting against anything but chaff. It will push things like conscript spam, cultist spam, brimstone spam even more, and result in a game where we have invincible gunlines.

maybe a single -1 to hit could be ok, but cumulative is just way too powerful., and would lead to very gamey play where you deepstrike in screening units to make everything behind them immune to shooting.

Combat needs some help, but this is too much.

Screening units are already way too powerful in 8th. They don't need more buffs. They already completely turn off CC lists.

Martel732 wrote:
Screening units are already way too powerful in 8th. They don't need more buffs. They already completely turn off CC lists.

I agree, there's no need to give further helps to shooty armies.

Seems more realistic to me.
Yes guardsmen behind ratlings get cover because the units targeting the guardsmen have to beware ratlings shooting at them while they do so!
I would like to see a return to moral checks to target more distant units for this reason.
Fear causing units and large units might cause a minus modifier if these are the c!osest, too...

 jeff white wrote:
Seems more realistic to me.
Yes guardsmen behind ratlings get cover because the units targeting the guardsmen have to beware ratlings shooting at them while they do so!
I would like to see a return to moral checks to target more distant units for this reason.
Fear causing units and large units might cause a minus modifier if these are the c!osest, too...

But a mortar launching units don't have to "beware of the ratlings" because they're lauching mortars up high in the sky? And if the ratling's attacks dont faze them (i.e. vehicles vs snipers) then the ratlings don't provide cover right?
Creates too many case-by-case scenario.