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This situation came up in a game recently.

Lord Castellan Creed was a legal target for a ranged attack with a sniper rifle, that hit him and also caused a wound.
Within 3" slightly behind him were both Colour Sergeant Kell and an Ogryn Bodyguard. One has the Sworn Protector special rule on his datasheet, the other has Bodyguard. RAW, each seems to activate independently, so you should roll for both. In this specific instance, only Kell made his roll, as such only he suffered the mortal wound.

But, what if both make the roll? They both suffer the mortal wound mentioned in their special rule, even if there was only 1 single hit for 1 single wound? By RAW a nice trick shot!

Opinion: Shouldn't we choose a bodyguard or select the one nearest the firing model, roll for him, and if he makes the roll (and suffers the hit for his protected character) stop rolling for additional bodyguards?

 Lord Xcapobl wrote:

But, what if both make the roll? They both suffer the mortal wound mentioned in their special rule, even if there was only 1 single hit for 1 single wound? By RAW a nice trick shot!

I dont know the exact wording of the rules, but if both have to roll when a character loses a wound, then yes, both suffer a mortal wound.

 Lord Xcapobl wrote:

Opinion: Shouldn't we choose a bodyguard or select the one nearest the firing model, roll for him, and if he makes the roll (and suffers the hit for his protected character) stop rolling for additional bodyguards?

Yes. Once again a rule screwup by GW. One mortal wound maybe multiplied ten times, if there are ten units with bodyguard, or similiar, rule.

Rulebook FAQ 1.1
Q: If a model has two rules that allow it to ignore wounds, such as the Disgustingly Resilient ability and the Tenacious Survivor Warlord Trait, can I use them both?
A: Unless stated otherwise, yes.
For example, if a model had the two aforementioned abilities and lost a wound, you could roll a D6 due to the Disgustingly Resilient ability and on a roll of 5+ that wound would be ignored. If you rolled less than 5, you could then roll another D6 because of the Tenacious Survivor Warlord Trait, and this time the wound would be ignored on a 6.

You make both rolls if needed.

 Zeshi wrote:
Rulebook FAQ 1.1
Q: If a model has two rules that allow it to ignore wounds, such as the Disgustingly Resilient ability and the Tenacious Survivor Warlord Trait, can I use them both?
A: Unless stated otherwise, yes.
For example, if a model had the two aforementioned abilities and lost a wound, you could roll a D6 due to the Disgustingly Resilient ability and on a roll of 5+ that wound would be ignored. If you rolled less than 5, you could then roll another D6 because of the Tenacious Survivor Warlord Trait, and this time the wound would be ignored on a 6.

You make both rolls if needed.

This has nothing to with the bodyguard rule.

The outcome is a bit different as in it results in a mortal wound instead of getting shrugged off, but the wording is the same "If X (this model/character in X"/Creed in x") loses a wound, make the roll and on a 2+/3+/X+ that wound is not lost". You could even conga line the wound from Creed to Kell (if in 3" of Creed) to the Ogryn Bodyguard (if in 3" of Kell).

You mean Kell intercepts the wound from Creed and then the Ogryn intercepts that wound from Creed ? That would work if the Ogryn is within 3" of Kell, who is within 3" of Creed, but is more than 3" away from Creed. The way i understand it both Kell and the Ogryn are within 3" of Creed.

If 2 abilities take place at the same time the player whos turn it is decides the order of operations and you completely resolve the one before moving on to the next.

In this example, you would declare that you want to use both abilities if needed. Since it's the shooters turn he picks which unit you roll for first. If you succeed it's fully resolved and done. Do not move on to the next unit.

Otherwise the next unit would roll.

Pg. 4 of the Primer sidebar Sequencing.

It's really unclear how triggers work in 40k. To use Magic terms, it seems most reasonable in this case that the second ability goes on the stack when the character loses a wound but then fizzles if the first bodyguard intercepts the wound, since there's no more wound to target. But we don't actually have rules for this and it's entirely plausible that, RAW, the wounds can multiply. It's just ambiguous.

I think the bigger multiple bodyguard problem is that if I have 6 Ogryn Bodyguards near each other, then if 1 of them takes a wound I have to roll to intercept with all of the other 5, and then if any of them actually intercepts the wound all of the others then have to try to intercept that wound, and so on.

Dionysodorus wrote:
It's really unclear how triggers work in 40k.

Nothing unclear about it, we have the rules for "Sequencing" on page 178

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
It's really unclear how triggers work in 40k.

Nothing unclear about it, we have the rules for "Sequencing" on page 178

Well, no, this is obviously inadequate. I don't think you've understood the thread. These rules are dealing with the order in which things happen. There's nothing here about what happens when triggers are separated in time from the resolution of their effects and other effects can resolve in between such that the trigger no longer appears to be satisfied. It's not clear if that's even a meaningful concept in 40k. Practically, it's not clear if you're committed to taking both bodyguard rolls at the moment the wound is lost, no matter if the first one passes. The Sequencing rules only seem to make clear that, if that's the case, you can choose which bodyguard roll to take first.

The way I read this with regards to multiple must's activating simultaneously and sequencing is that you must take the bodyguard rules (In whatever naming convention) for each unit (or however the rule is worded) until one succeeds or they all fail and you get to determine sequencing of who takes them first to who takes them last (got a bodyguard who is nearly dead, take it on him last to extend out how many times you can roll to protect the character). People may disagree, but without clearer rules definition, that's how I would call it.

It's a tradeoff between more possible bodyguards that could intercept the same wound but your opponent decides which one is rolled first (bodyguards wrapped around Creed for example) vs. your deployment of units with the bodyguard rule and fewer possible bodyguard rolls to begin with. (line of Creed - Kell - Ogryn Bodyguard).

Raw they all role in responce to a wound. Any that succeed take a mortal wound and prevent the original (prevention doesnt stack)then all body guards which successfully prevented take a mortal wound regardless of how many successfully prevented. Then all body guards within range if sucessfull take a mortal wound requireing body guards within range to test test keep going till the're dead or no longer require tests

I like the fluff of it one bodyguard jumps on a bullet 3 all jump in front of a bullet which caries through

U02dah4 wrote:
Raw they all role in responce to a wound. Any that succeed take a mortal wound and prevent the original (prevention doesnt stack)then all body guards which successfully prevented take a mortal wound regardless of how many successfully prevented. Then all body guards within range if sucessfull take a mortal wound requireing body guards within range to test test keep going till the're dead or no longer require tests

I like the fluff of it one bodyguard jumps on a bullet 3 all jump in front of a bullet which caries through

Even with 2 Ogryn Bodyguards you roll one at a time. It's again an issue of Sequencing. But you would roll a Bodyguard roll if the first wound was successful intercepted and the second Ogryn Bodyguard is in 3" of the first one.

So it would work like that with 1 Astra Militarum Character and 2 Ogryn Bodyguards [OB] (and they are all in 3" of eachother):

1) AM Character makes his save roll but fails
2) Bodyguard kicks in and your opponent (because its his turn) decides which to take first
3) OB1 rolls successful for his Bodyguard roll but
4) OB 2 is in 3" so rolls for his Bodyguard
5) If successful OB 2 takes the mortal wound (if not OB 1 takes the wound)

Alternate:
3) OB 1 fails his roll so
4) OB 2 rolls to see if he can intercept the wound on the AM Character
5) If successful OB 2 takes the mortal wound (if not the AM Character takes the wound)

I think you would have to resolve them one at a time.

If you roll both at once and they both intercepted the wound you end up with a issue where one model has successfully taken a wound but there was never a wound to take as it has already been taken, there might even be an argument that if you rolled for a two bodyguards for a singular wound and they both pass they both take a wound if you roll for both at the same time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zeshi wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Raw they all role in responce to a wound. Any that succeed take a mortal wound and prevent the original (prevention doesnt stack)then all body guards which successfully prevented take a mortal wound regardless of how many successfully prevented. Then all body guards within range if sucessfull take a mortal wound requireing body guards within range to test test keep going till the're dead or no longer require tests

I like the fluff of it one bodyguard jumps on a bullet 3 all jump in front of a bullet which caries through

Even with 2 Ogryn Bodyguards you roll one at a time. It's again an issue of Sequencing. But you would roll a Bodyguard roll if the first wound was successful intercepted and the second Ogryn Bodyguard is in 3" of the first one.

So it would work like that with 1 Astra Militarum Character and 2 Ogryn Bodyguards [OB] (and they are all in 3" of eachother):

1) AM Character makes his save roll but fails
2) Bodyguard kicks in and your opponent (because its his turn) decides which to take first
3) OB1 rolls successful for his Bodyguard roll but
4) OB 2 is in 3" so rolls for his Bodyguard
5) If successful OB 2 takes the mortal wound (if not OB 1 takes the wound)

Alternate:
3) OB 1 fails his roll so
4) OB 2 rolls to see if he can intercept the wound on the AM Character
5) If successful OB 2 takes the mortal wound (if not the AM Character takes the wound)

No all must roll sequencing doesnt matter in this instance

1 AM character takes save roll but fails

2 all bodyguards within 3" of the character must roll (this is non optional and doesnt specify don't roll if the W is prevented essentially the trigger happens at step 1 regardless of order all must resolve sequencing is therefore only important in identifying which model is successfully or unsuccessful).

3 any bodyguards that roll a 3+ prevent the original wound and take a mortal wound.

4 The original W can be prevented only once regardless of number of 3+'s however their is no limit to mortal W.

5 bodyguards that are successful in their rolls are characters and have taken a mortal W causing them to lose a W.

6 check are there any bodyguards within 3" of the bodyguards who have taken W if so you now go back to step 2 using the successful body guard/s as the character.

So if you cluster bodyguards you start multiplying wounds

Why not?

While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time

If the first OB intercepts the hit there is no reason to roll for the second OB. Your opponent decides which one tries first and if they are in 3" of eachother they still roll for the mortal wound trading but you can't make more wounds that way.

 Lance845 wrote:
If 2 abilities take place at the same time the player whos turn it is decides the order of operations and you completely resolve the one before moving on to the next.

In this example, you would declare that you want to use both abilities if needed. Since it's the shooters turn he picks which unit you roll for first. If you succeed it's fully resolved and done. Do not move on to the next unit.

Otherwise the next unit would roll.

Pg. 4 of the Primer sidebar Sequencing.

Agreed. Both don't leap in front of the same shot and get wounded! One 'bodyguard' can try, if they fail the other can try. Owning player chooses the order of attempts.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Agreed. Both don't leap in front of the same shot and get wounded! One 'bodyguard' can try, if they fail the other can try. Owning player chooses the order of attempts.

Not owning player. The player whos turn it is decides the order of attempts when it comes to sequencing.

p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Agreed. Both don't leap in front of the same shot and get wounded! One 'bodyguard' can try, if they fail the other can try. Owning player chooses the order of attempts.

Not owning player. The player whos turn it is decides the order of attempts when it comes to sequencing.

You can get fethed if you think you can choose what my models do...

Maybe that works if there are two units on opposing sides with 'strikes first', for example. But no way do you get to pick what my models do, sorry.

"If 2 abilities take place at the same time the player whos turn it is decides the order of operations and you completely resolve the one before moving on to the next. "

So yes your opponent chooses which body guard rolls first if the W occurs in their turn.

However you don't have permission to disguard an operation that you no longer wish to resolve as IT is no longer beneficial or potentially detrimental. You resolve one then must resolve the next fully.

So W to character causes both body guards to have to roll a d6
The player whose turn it is determines the order, the first chosen body guard rolls a d6 continue to resolution then second bodyguard rolls a d6 continue to resolution.

A W can only be prevented once just as model can only be effected by reroll 1''s to hit once but the mortal W is not conditonly on the prevention of a W only on a 3+ dice roll

 JohnnyHell wrote:

p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Agreed. Both don't leap in front of the same shot and get wounded! One 'bodyguard' can try, if they fail the other can try. Owning player chooses the order of attempts.

Not owning player. The player whos turn it is decides the order of attempts when it comes to sequencing.

You can get fethed if you think you can choose what my models do...

Maybe that works if there are two units on opposing sides with 'strikes first', for example. But no way do you get to pick what my models do, sorry.

While that's an interestingly confrontational response it doesn't actually have any basis in the rules. The sequencing rules are entirely clear: you have 2 rules that are activating at the same time so the player whose turn it is (in this case your opponent) decides which one gets rolled for first.

There is a bit of a grey area here in terms of how you declare usage of the rule. The implication of the sequencing rule would be a player has to declare their intention to use any rules as soon as the opportunity arises and can't wait to see the outcome of one roll before deciding to trigger a different model's bodyguard rule. That's not 100% clear in the rules, though it is strongly implied. This would also mean you do get some measure of control over your own models since you can always choose not to activate the bodyguard rule for one of the eligible characters in the first place.

To be clear - the shooting unit's player should almost always opt for some guard taking the roll first, right? So you minimize the risk of not doing any sort of damage?

The rule governs "If 2 abilities take place at the same time"

If only 1 ability has been decared you resolve it there is no issue

However if two or have been declared they are declared you resolve them in sequence this seems crystal clear.

"The implication of the sequencing rule would be a player has to declare their intention to use any rules as soon as the opportunity arises and can't wait to see the outcome of one roll before deciding to trigger a different model's bodyguard rule" yes that is raw.

"you can always choose not to activate the bodyguard rule for one of the eligible characters in the first place." No you do not have permission to do that.

It comes down to the wording of the rule being sequenced. If the rule is written in the formats

You may role a d6 if x happens and do y
You can do x if y happens.

There is a conditional clause giving you the option to not declare but once declared you must resolve in sequence.


If x happen's you may .....
If x happens you can....

The rule itself is giving you permission to conditionally apply it's effect is at resolution. Eg. Platoon standard units within 6" of any unit with a platoon standard may add 1 to the LD test when taking moral tests. You sequence moral tests as normal but then may optionally add +1ld

If the rule is written in the formats
If x happens you must....
If x happens role a d6.....

Then their is no conditional clause therefore you have no permission to not use them so once triggered you must sequence and resolve them. Bodyguards are in this category.

Slipspace wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Agreed. Both don't leap in front of the same shot and get wounded! One 'bodyguard' can try, if they fail the other can try. Owning player chooses the order of attempts.

Not owning player. The player whos turn it is decides the order of attempts when it comes to sequencing.

You can get fethed if you think you can choose what my models do...

Maybe that works if there are two units on opposing sides with 'strikes first', for example. But no way do you get to pick what my models do, sorry.

While that's an interestingly confrontational response it doesn't actually have any basis in the rules. The sequencing rules are entirely clear: you have 2 rules that are activating at the same time so the player whose turn it is (in this case your opponent) decides which one gets rolled for first.

There is a bit of a grey area here in terms of how you declare usage of the rule. The implication of the sequencing rule would be a player has to declare their intention to use any rules as soon as the opportunity arises and can't wait to see the outcome of one roll before deciding to trigger a different model's bodyguard rule. That's not 100% clear in the rules, though it is strongly implied. This would also mean you do get some measure of control over your own models since you can always choose not to activate the bodyguard rule for one of the eligible characters in the first place.

It's meant to be tongue-in-cheek, not confrontational, but internet, tone loss etc. I guess.

The Sequencing rule seems to be to avoid confrontations between players when things happen simultaneously. I don't think it's intended to let you choose what your opponent's models do. HIWPI is that owning player chooses, not their opponnt, and you don't roll simultaneously. That makes the most sense, doesn't have my opponent controlling my force, and doesn't create any problems.

The problem with RAI is that Intention is subjective their is no way to know what the author''s intention was unless it is stated in a faq. So convention is to use RAW whether you personaly agree or not and RAW seems clear.

Johnny, I don't think anyone's saying the shooting player gets to decide what your models do; just the order in which they do it.

If the Bodyguard rule is optional, you still get to choose whether or not to use it with one or both models. Your opponent just gets to decide which one goes first. If it's mandatory, then it doesn't matter.

The bodyguard rule is not optional, not with veterans. I dont know about other models/units. You must roll with every unit that has that rule. RAW if ten units are in range, all ten have to roll. Which means a single wound will probably multiply to 8+ mortal wounds total.

niether tell, or the ogryn can shrug off the mortal wound. Its one wound. On a 2 plus its passed to the ogryn, or kell. The player woos running the IG (AM) chooses who's going to get the mortal wound. If on he first roll when going for the 2 plus is failed on a one, then Creed takes the wound.

Its not that hard. Ya don't get to keep rolling for each unit of body guard type units.

No you have to role for them all