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How do?

So this is something that's been preying on my brain for a few days now.

As an older gamer, I remember the days when conversions were really quite common place. From the simple head or weapon swap to truly impressive scratchbuilds, it was rare to see an army without some kind of conversions.

In the really early days, when you had to carve up solid models, I stuck to simple stuff. Then the advent (from my GW background) of multipart plastics made Kit Bashes the order of the day. Not only were the parts already separate, but being plastic much easier to bung together.

Then...something changed. And not just with GW, but the wider market. One of things that's always puzzled me about Warmahordes was the lack of customisation. And from that, the lack of need to convert. And GW seem to be following suit, going for more elaborate base kits, which lack the former flexibility. Which although still in plastic, are nearly as difficult to work with as the old Metal Lump models - because the parts aren't standardised across a given range (well, not all the time)

There's also fewer to no 'missing units'. So no more need to convert X on a Y character - because there's one you can buy off the peg.

Now of course, conversion does still go on. The lack of need is absolutely not the same as lack of desire.

I just feel the general industry's shift to more standardised kits has left the hobby a little poorer.

People want standardization. Thats not to say conversions are dead. Far from it. Its just that its definitely not something most people want to mess with aside from a head swap or something.

See, that's a great shame to me.

Wanting standardisation is fine - and very much for the individual player or hobbyist to decide. But it can stifle the artistic side of the hobby.

One of my personal favourites was my Savage Orc Warboss on Wyvern. It's basically made from the High Elf Dragon, metal Wyvern, Orc Boss box, modelling string, sprue off cuts and a bit of my own blood from when my saw slipped and anointed (still got a scar!).

It worked beautifully, and has taken pride of place in my local GW's cabinet for best part of ten years now.

Sadly he no longer has rules in the game, but I'm still massively proud of that effort.

We really are going to need that Mad Doc Random Ramblings thread soon, aren't we?

Are maybe a link to your personal Blog Site?

I make my own versions of most of the IG characters, even named ones. Granted, it made more sense back when you could have "Cadian Al-rahem" or "Catachan Pask", but at least I can call my army whatever and use them.

Only one I think I have that I use (and prefer) is the Creed model, because he looks a better general than I think I could ever hope to come up with.

I'd say conversions are not dead, more like in its prime.

Yes, while GW kits are pretty pick and mix, with options for what you want, customisation of your army is where the converting part really shines nowadays.

For example, different design of plasma weaponry across your army. Different heads than standard. Converting a completely different faction to be another (I'm currently doing this, turning chaos cultists into a hive militia for my counts as conscripts in my steel legion army) and many more.

Also Doc, you got to take into account some armies lend much better to converting than others. Space marines, Necrons and Eldar don't really lend themselves to much converting.

Chaos marines, Orks, and imperial Guard, well, the world's your oyster, so go nuts!

There must be a lot of characters without a full range of weapon options.
Even squad leaders are missing a lot (Aspect Exarchs), so conversions are still needed.
Some units still need some work (IG vets), and kitbashes can handle a lot of those, but with posed multipart kits, the options are thinning out.

Yeah, it's not that converting is dead, really. More like converting to access game rules is dead.

Also, long as you're not playing with GW's ball, there's an infinite number of conversion options available:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do?

So this is something that's been preying on my brain for a few days now.

As an older gamer, I remember the days when conversions were really quite common place. From the simple head or weapon swap to truly impressive scratchbuilds, it was rare to see an army without some kind of conversions.

In the really early days, when you had to carve up solid models, I stuck to simple stuff. Then the advent (from my GW background) of multipart plastics made Kit Bashes the order of the day. Not only were the parts already separate, but being plastic much easier to bung together.

Then...something changed. And not just with GW, but the wider market. One of things that's always puzzled me about Warmahordes was the lack of customisation. And from that, the lack of need to convert. And GW seem to be following suit, going for more elaborate base kits, which lack the former flexibility. Which although still in plastic, are nearly as difficult to work with as the old Metal Lump models - because the parts aren't standardised across a given range (well, not all the time)

There's also fewer to no 'missing units'. So no more need to convert X on a Y character - because there's one you can buy off the peg.

Now of course, conversion does still go on. The lack of need is absolutely not the same as lack of desire.

I just feel the general industry's shift to more standardized kits has left the hobby a little poorer.

I agree 100%. The majority of kits GW puts out these days are largely single pose with maybe a weapon or head swap. Unit and modelling options have been on a steady decline. I was very excited when I heard that the Primaris Marines were coming out. "A true scale Tactical Squad!", I thought. That's not what we got. We got a unit of taller Marines who could use one of two guns... more if you count sticking a scope on. No heavy weapons. No pistol/chainsword combo. No variable special weapons. We didn't get true scale Marines. When I saw what we got, I almost immediately lost interest.

I then considered the Death Guard. They look cool. But... they largely have the same issue. The models are, for the most part, single pose with the occasional weapon or head swap.

I'm at a point where I want to try something new, but don't see anything new that looks like it's worth my hobby time. The game isn't good enough to hold my attention without paired hobby activity. If the game was clean and consistent with a standardized store event scene, such as with Armada or X-Wing, I'd be happy to play with my old stuff. It's not.

I'm really hoping that we'll see more multi-part kits with parts being compatible being kits. I'm not expecting that we will.

The sheer amount of wargear options in 40k is one of the most off-putting things about the game to me. I always feel like I'll regret my choice when kitting out a new model, and most of the time, I do.

I do enjoy converting, as long as it doesn't change how the model works in-game. You can do that in Warmachine as well. Most of my conversion work is reposing, fixing of ugly sculpts, and sex change operations, things that add variety without impacting the game.

I also think conversions should be optional. If someone doesn't want to convert, that's their choice and they should be just as accepted in the community as those who do. I don't like the implicit shaming of people who just play stock models.

Furthermore, I don't convert just for conversion's sake. I convert because I have an idea that requires conversion, and I will not be satisfied with sloppy work. I want my converted models to look like they weren't converted, otherwise what's the point? I convert to get a look I like, and that means parts need to match up as well as in official miniatures, and green stuff sculpting needs to not look like green stuff. This means I won't convert something if I don't think I can pull it off.

At the end of the day, I think this issue comes down to individual value judgments.

Some people like the lack of variation and that they can simply build the models and play without having to make much in the way of wargear choices. For them, this is a good thing.

For me, it's bad enough that I feel as though I'm being pushed out as a hobbyist.

GW always talked about the '4 Pillars' of the hobby. Some people snarkily refer to that as the HHHHobby.

Collecting - still a thing.
Building - less appealing with mono posed model kits.
Painting - still a thing.
Playing - less appealing with fewer unit options.

 Alpharius wrote:
We really are going to need that Mad Doc Random Ramblings thread soon, aren't we?

Are maybe a link to your personal Blog Site?

May I suggest a new category for Lego's end of the year member review?

 BrookM wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
We really are going to need that Mad Doc Random Ramblings thread soon, aren't we?

Are maybe a link to your personal Blog Site?

May I suggest a new category for Lego's end of the year member review?

Ah... personal attacks. Good times. If we add a spam category, let's also add a category for personal attacks that add nothing to the conversation.

To stay on topic...

It's OK if you disagree. Some of us are mourning what we see as a wealth of options being replaced with entry level single pose kits. Things change. Such is life. If GW keeps at this, they'll lose some customers and gain others. Hopefully for them, they'll gain more than they lose.

Is it an attack or good-natured ribbing?

I still convert a LOT. I prefer as many of my models as possible to be something different.

I tend to buy a lot of old models that need re-conditioning. Repairing them and modifying them tend to go hand-in-hand.

I'm on the side saying this is the best time for conversions, with all the multi-part plastic kits available nowadays converting up minis has never been easier. I think what we see is typically stock troops and converted HQ's to make them stand out a bit more. for my Necrons I converted up a destroyer lord and my lychguard. Also, if you're looking for people having a great time converting minis check out INQ28. that's what our group is during currently and I've never had more fun building a force. That type/theme of game tends to lend itself to heavy conversion.

pictured is my 70% done inquisitor for Inquisimunda. I'm running a campaign so I actually have like 30 more completely converted minis as well.

Totally agree.
warning.
I find it not only the model kits and the producers, but the generation having been raised on collectible card games by companies that want to sell a product for every niche then manufacture the rules to push sales of just those products.
Being brought up in that environment, and with some other factors, kids (yes, even 25 year old people are 'kids') are also generally less self-reliant, less creative (in the sense of actually making something from scratch, inventing coherent backgrounds that really stand up, demanding originality from themselves and holding this as a personal virtue) and more inclined to game the system, cheat, lie (yes, right, my experience) and generally live more shallow existences for less redeeming ends (yes, again, my own opinion, impale me for it).
Now, I may seem to be painting with a broad brush and I am, but I also recognize that the kids that have to live in this environment and aren't this way suffer in a really big way, just as many of us may have suffered trying hold up the pillars of the old world against the tides of human entropy in the slide to generation me me me.
Fact is, at least in the West, much of this can be painted with a broad brush as it is a systemic problem endemic to institutions and their mismanagement but I will leave it at that.
Again, my opinion.
So, GW and other companies not only aiming to profit in this environment, after having encouraged it to some degree, also now employ products of this environment and we enjoy (???) the results of a vicious circle, monopose masterpieces with neither the need nor the potential for creative recomposition natural to a different era, mine/ours(?), on my analysis because the idjits making the stuff don't see the virtue/profit in it.
OK, broken... :

 Fifty wrote:
Is it an attack or good-natured ribbing?

The latter, but alas, as with many things in life, I also fail at comedy.

On topic though..

I convert a lot, by which I mean I mainly order heads from a different company and sticking them on GW models.

Losing that lawsuit may have steered GW hard into this direction as well. No model = no rules. Though they are also clearly writing rules with models in mind, a lot of the stuff you had to convert onto a model back then has been outright removed these days, like power axes for Imperial Guard minis, or the equipment choices of a lot of generic HQ's in general. If it's not in the box, chances are it's no longer an option. (which does make one wonder why shotguns are still in the Imperial Guard armoury..)

Going off the beaten path and doing your own thing, like with INQ28 or making RPG minis in general is certainly a great incentive to do weird or outright awesome gak, it's just a shame that GW is no longer actively doing it outside of Blanchitsu(sp?).

I'm not even sure it's just GW.

X-Wing doesn't require any, nor does RuneWars, or Warmahordes, or Infinity (may be wrong on Infinity. Please feel free to re-educate your humble scribe).

It just feels like an industry shift away from the slightly bonkers days of kitbashing being the norm.

Perhaps it's all on us as the hobby to push ourselves here. After all, it's fine and well bemoaning the lack of need to convert - but if we're not doing it as individuals, that aspect's visibility reduces.

 Alpharius wrote:
We really are going to need that Mad Doc Random Ramblings thread soon, aren't we?

Are maybe a link to your personal Blog Site?

No, we need someone to start discussions on a "discussion board".

That said, I think this drive to "standardization" is driven partly by the companies themselves. AS a 6Sigma guy, one of the first things beat into your head is that standardization is critical to reduce waste and improve efficiency! Therefore, the compnaies themselves steer their product lines in that direction.

Secondly, many gamers just want their games handed to them. What I mean is, they just want to know what things do what to whom, and go from there. Creating and story-telling and customization is a burden. This is the most vocal market, and probably the people most likely to drive sales. The other group can just get on with it themselves without a company at all.

So the Company is doing what it needs to do to survive and catering to what the buyers tend to want. Plus, if you have to scratchbuild something, the company makes $0 dollars on that.

As someone who always found that fudging about with fat fingers and tiny bits of plastic, metal, balsa wood and various glues to be one of the less enjoyable parts of the hobby, I personally celebrate the move towards reduced *need* for conversions. I totally agree it is a thing though. However, I absolutely *hate* the notion that in order to field model X (say, for the sake of argument, a Gundabad Orc Standard Bearer for the Hobbit SBG) I have to spend a lot of time, effort and money farting on, making my own out of whatever bits I can get my hands on, which inevitably will end up looking like arse.

I totally support conversion as a legitimate element of the hobby, and something to be celebrated for those that *want* to do it. However I would personally much rather just be able to buy the relevant, nicely sculpted, model off the shelf so I can get straight on with painting it and getting it on the table (or, more like, in the box to sit on the shelf for a decade until I get around to finishing the rest of the unit.... :-) )

I'm entering a tournament at the weekend (Stockport in Flames 2017) and *needed* Azog in Heavy Armour, but of course there is no proper model available from GW. So I plucked up courage and sculpted the relevant armour in greenstuff over the top of a fething £15 finecast model. It is almost passable. Almost. But its a lot worse than something a professional would have done. It was only the fact I had spent £15 on the thing that meant I didn't bin it in shame and change my list.

Each to their own when it comes to their hobby, but I really like the direction things are going myself.

P.s. I have been collecting and painting toy soldiers since 1985. If I was ever going to get good at converting or sculpting it would have happened a long time before now! :-)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
nfinity (may be wrong on Infinity. Please feel free to re-educate your humble scribe).

I don't play it, but my friends do. Looks like all spindly multipiece metal anime miniatures to me.

A lot of new and younger gamers see the hobby side of table top gaming as a barrier to play. Consider that for a gamer these days, they have all these options: video games, board games, and CCG's. These games- you make the purchase, take it home, open it up, and you can immediately start playing. There is little to no prep work for most of these games. * Even for RPG's these days like D&D or Pathfinder, you can now purchase pre-painted models of pretty good quality. Why are games like X-wing and STAW so popular? Prepainted models and customization.

Now look at 40K. Ignoring the issue of price of the game which is a whole separate argument: You need a rule book (no biggie, you always need a rulebook). Then you need an army book. Then you buy a "Start Collecting!" box of Space Marines because, well, it's the starter box. Then you need either clippers or a hobby knife- preferably both. Maybe a file set for mold lines. Oh, and don't forget the paint. Plastic paint for plastic models, or superglue for everything. Hmm. Those bases look pretty plain. You'll need some grit, sand, fine gravel, or whatever bits to add to the base. Awesome! My model is now assembled! Only 11 more models to assemble. After a couple games, we'll realize we need about 50+ more models for a proper army. Oh joy! Now you have a grey plastic space marine sitting on a base. Gotta paint it! Brushes, paint, primer... as many choices and options here as you can possibly imagine. Sure, there are resources available at every step of this hobby, but when all I want to do is play 40K but I have to spend significant time (days/weeks) before I can even step foot into a GW store to play... it's no wonder that painted armies sell so well on eBay.

More than one big company (Hasbro, Asmodee) look at this aspect of the hobby as a barrier to getting into their games. So they make premade and painted models of OK quality for their games. The new Star Wars miniatures game coming out by FFG has a high model count, and all the models are one piece, prepainted (unless that has changed since the announcement?).

Gamers have complained since, well, back in the 80's when I started table top gaming about the prep time, the lack of models, and the lack of choices. Back then, if you wanted to play, you HAD to convert or scratchbuild models. Who can forget the infamous "Deodorant Hover Tank" that GW put into White Dwarf? Why did Privateer Press suddenly take off? Well, part of it was rules, the other part was that every model had rules, and every rule had a model, and there was no painting requirement for tournaments (except for Hardcore). X-Wing took off because of solid rules, depth of game play (customization of ships), and the only prep was punch out some tokens, put a ship on a peg and base, and you could start playing.

TLDR; Changing social values and immediate expectations of gratification means the hobby aspect of table top gaming is being less emphasized or minimized so the player can play immediately.



* Some board games could require some prep time to punch out counters or set up the board, and there are some players that obsess over the perfect M:tG deck

Though didn't Privateer also put the boot down and state that for official events conversions were absolutely forbidden?

Warmachine's rules set requires a tighter control of conversions, Otherwise you can gain a lot of in game advantages with modeling.

Well we've sadly seen that in GW games as well - people modelling for advantage. I've seen Ork Trukks with massive, LoS blocking adboards on the side. I've seen 'scratch built' Bloodcrushers that were just Bloodletters plonked on LotR horses, on too small a base for an actual Bloodcrusher.

But is that not throwing baby out with the bathwater? The actions of a tiny, thoughtless minority shouldn't be reason to reduce part of the hobby's presence?

 BrookM wrote:
Though didn't Privateer also put the boot down and state that for official events conversions were absolutely forbidden?

As far as I know, they have stated that your have to be 50%+ PP, you have to keep them recognisable as what they're meant to be, you can't swap a weapon for a different kind of weapon (but you can swap a sword for another sword), and for official events you can't have non-PP IPs in your army.

All of those are pretty reasonable, especially if you consider that they're meant to lessen confusion about what a model is supposed to be.

If they've changed any of this since, I've missed it.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Warmachine's rules set requires a tighter control of conversions, Otherwise you can gain a lot of in game advantages with modeling.

No you can't.... Warmachine rules are completely independent of the model in every way.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Warmachine's rules set requires a tighter control of conversions, Otherwise you can gain a lot of in game advantages with modeling.

No you can't.... Warmachine rules are completely independent of the model in every way.

Warmachine just requires the correct base and uses an imaginary cylider to determine line of sight, correct? GW should really get on top of that.

A big part of the problem with 40k is just that the rules don't really take advantage of the customization in a way that's rewarding for players. Customization is all about individuality, but 40k isn't a game about uniqueness. You don't need one of something; if its worth playing you need at least 4 of them and if the game changes, the models you customize are often challenging to change in a way that keeps up.

We're also entering an age where model quality is far more competitive than its ever been and companies are becoming more invested in maintaining and selling the appearance of their game and IP. This more than anything seems to be what is driving the trend to be less approving of armies that don't look like "their game".


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 Kriswall wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Warmachine's rules set requires a tighter control of conversions, Otherwise you can gain a lot of in game advantages with modeling.

No you can't.... Warmachine rules are completely independent of the model in every way.

Warmachine just requires the correct base and uses an imaginary cylider to determine line of sight, correct? GW should really get on top of that.

Yes, though no one uses the imaginary cylinder...

Personally, I don't get the love of conversions. I really don't care whether my opponent's army has conversions. Most of the time, I can't even tell unless I'm intimately familiar with an army's model range.

As a general rule, the more conversions my opponent has, the less likely their army is to be painted or painted well. I don't mean this as an attack, just a statement to point out that different aspects of the hobby appeal to different people. As such, if people aren't as interested in the part you find most important, well....get over it. Every person has their own hobby priorities.

I prefer the painting aspect, and appreciate when my opponent has a well painted army. Conversions are cool, but don't appeal to me very much. If my opponent is super into his converted army, good for him. I just get annoyed when the conversation inevitably ends up into "Why isn't your army converted?".