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Made in us
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores






Baton Rouge, La

Regardless of how long you've played, we all make mistakes. List some common mistakes players of all levels tend to make and options to improvement. What mistakes do even seasoned players tend to make? What methods would you suggest to improve strategy, list building, and in-game time management?

I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you  
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Time Management:
I'm bad at this one, because I tend to just enjoy the bantering and the joking and the chatting so much! However, my #1 suggestion would be to get used to playing your army. You gotta know your stuff backwards and forwards, and play a bunch of games with them prior to doing a tourney. That way, you can act on instinct and save all that time that would be spent looking things up and making decisions.

Strategy/Tactics:
Of course, if you save time by just making the wrong choice, that's bad too. Get really used to keeping distances in mind. We tend to forget about that when playing, and get surprised when units can hit or. We get so accustomed to this that we forget that we can move models in ways that keep them 100% out of harm's reach. Just get used to measuring and making those quick calculations. They move 8" and have 24" shots? Measure 33" away from the unit, and you'll be fine. Not hard.

As for Strategy, two things; #1 - Objectives, Objectives, Objectives. I just won (effectively impossibly) a round of a local league because my opponent walked off his objective on Turn 5. He had Slay the Warlord, First Blood, and got Linebreaker. I only have Slay the Warlord, but I had my objective. He had most of his army left, I had just a few units. I won because he forgot he needed to keep folks there. #2 - have a plan to win from turn 1, and keep that plan in mind whenever you move or shoot or charge. If you know that you can't take their objectives, then focus on holding your own and getting slay the warlord or linebreaker (and first blood is always gravy).

List Building:
Don't be afraid to look at tourney-winning lists if you need help in this department. It just makes good sense to use other people's experiences to help guide your own. Outside of tourneys, for just fun stuff, have a plan in mind. Strategy begins at list building. It's okay if your strategy is "kill everything, then walk onto objectives", because that's a viable strategy. However, it does have its weaknesses, so you want to know what those are going in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/18 16:01:41


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

Yarium hit the nail on the head with his point about objectives. You can very easily get suckered into trying to kill everything that you walk off of your objectives, or you forget about the drop pod in your backfield. Every move you make should be in service to your objectives, and you always need to keep in your mind just how much time you have left in the game, be it in the form of time or turns.

Also worth adding is sending out super characters/units without support. This is somewhat common in my stores where a couple of players have big guys like Magnus or Mortarion, and think that because they have very high damage output, that they can run in alone. What tends to happen is that the big hitters get one or two kills and are torn apart without support.

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

The biggest mistake that new players will make is positioning. And it's little things that includes understanding how other rules work that might not be present in your army.

For instance, deploying a tactical squad out of a razorback, but making sure that the razorback will be closer to the enemy's smite than the tacticals.

Or, forgetting simple rules like heroic intervention, and properly utilizing a multi-charge.

It all boils down to managing position on the board. And it gets more complex. Where will your opponent go next turn? Can you control where he goes with your own position?

Pretty much all of the tactical depth in 40k stems from this. The perfect armies for a new player are gunline armies, because they don't require nearly as much planning and careful positioning as others. If you never have to move, you will make far less mistakes.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in no
Death-Dealing Devastator



Melbourne,Vic

The above is good advice.

It's important to think about how your opponent is going to play their army as well, and adjust your strategy accordingly.

For instance: Do they mostly have units with short range weapons? Then they're going to have to come to you, or wait for you to go to them. If they set up short range units on objectives, you need to decide if you're going to a) kill them with longer range, b) risk exchanging fire using something with a similar range (or melee), c) try to lure them off, or d) just ignore units camping objectives and play around them, staying out of their range as much as possible. All are viable strategies, your choice depends on what you have on the table and how you feel comfortable playing.

Also important to think in general terms about cost-benefit. Yes, you can throw that unit of terminators (for instance) into a big melee of much weaker units, probably kill quite a few units, and maybe even walk out with a few models-but you need to think longer term. Is there something else on the table which can only be killed by your termies? It might be best to hold back, preserve your full unit as much as possible, and focus on getting them to the target no one else can deal with. Eventually you might reach a point where you have to throw them into a big melee, stalling things out to protect something else (an important objective, for instance)-don't be afraid to walk a unit into a fight you know it won't walk away from, if it's the right fight.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







General advice I like to keep:

1) Make sure you remember the turn order. Write a cheatsheet/checklist if you must.
2) Make sure you move all your units before shooting with any.
3) Redundancy is key in list-building: Make sure you have multiple failsafes, or that your units aren't useless.
4) Don't plan around your opponent being dumb.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




When it comes to list building, cohesiveness is key. Will you have too many units reliant on other units? Do you have a general game plan and objective for the list? While the game objective itself will vary from time to time, your list should have a goal itself in perhaps being more mobile to catch objectives, a gunline meant to stand firm and shoot, charging into the enemy so that they don't get the charge first or shoot back, etc.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

On the subject of list building, and to springboard off of Slayer Fan, make sure that your entire list is all working together. So many times I find "balanced" lists that confuse balance with trying to do everything at once. What those lists tend to be are lists unable to accomplish much of anything.

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Rules mistakes:

Short answer, don't let yourself get away with it. We've all played with the dude constantly going back and retroactively applying a rule or special ability - "oh shoot, I forgot to reroll that just then. Ok, actually, I didn't lose that morale test, these guys are still alive" If you do stuff like this and want to fix it (this also ties in with time management) just be really strict with yourself with it over the next few games. never allow yourself to retroactively apply a rule, and you'll start remembering them. make some flash cards.

Time management: You spend half this game sitting and waiting for your opponetn's move. Form a plan during that time for what you're going to do on your turn. Get a dice tower or other rolling aid (just a shallow box works too) so you don't drop dice or have to pick them up from farther away. use quick movement techniques like "move first row, then catch up with everyone else."

tactics: when going over a loss, start by ignoring dice and army lists. zero in on every positioning and decision making error, and adopt the attitude of a poker player: Distill the correct choice and the wrong choice from the actual outcome. I see so many people who do not improve because every loss gets blamed on dice, or enemy army lists, when during the game you can watch them forget half their rules or gamble everything on miracle dice rolls. "I have five lascannons - that means I can kill that knight in ONE SHOT! oh it didn't work? Stupid dice!"

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







A common trap is also mistaking "dependency" for "synergy." "Banshees have synergy with Farseers since Doom makes them wound more, and ignore more saves" should read "Banshees die fast and don't hit hard unless you take a Farseer with Doom."
   
Made in us
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores






Baton Rouge, La

Any thoughts on deployment strategy?

I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






HATE Club, East London

Shame this thread is not continuing.

My own issue is the strategy of deployment. Within a battle I am pretty good at responding to the ebb and flow of the battle, but I am awful at deploying with any anticipation of how the battle will unfold before it starts. For that reason, I love deep-strikers and feel I use them well, but in a list without deep-strikers, I often find I have deployed so badly I am playing catch up either in terms of killing or board control right from the start.

Is there a "how-to-deploy-well" guide anywhere?

Though guards may sleep and ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.

Posting as Fifty_Painting on Instagram.

My blog - almost 40 pages of Badab War, Eldar, undead and other assorted projects 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





 Arth-Rytis wrote:
Regardless of how long you've played, we all make mistakes. List some common mistakes players of all levels tend to make and options to improvement. What mistakes do even seasoned players tend to make? What methods would you suggest to improve strategy, list building, and in-game time management?


Time management is a tricky one. I set a 7 minute timer with a 3 minute secondary and play my turn. If the second buzzer goes off i pass my turn. It is a practice i picked up in a different game system. Really helps avoid analysis paralysis, my biggest problem.

lists
- the list tailor always altering their list to the opponent/the knee-jerk list tweaker. Both sides do themselves a disservice in not allowing the list a chance to play out and see the honest strengths and weaknesses. They get a false sense of what a list can really do.
- the net lister, ya the list is good in that meta, but why? do you understand how to use it?
- because of the frequent list alterations, people can lack familiarity, botching their own rules, often times to their own detriment.

Deployment
- play the first round with a friend, then reset the table. Take turns going first. Take notes, include a hot/cold dice rating. Do this at least a half dozen times with each deployment type. Get different factions on the table as well, even if it is proxy form. IG armored company is nothing like boyz horde.

Recommendations
- make sure to reread your rules on a regular basis.
- give a list at least 10 games before swapping models, i give mine 25 unless the list is clearly failing.
- meta tailor your list, do not faction tailor your list
- play on a clock, lose a few games, use these games to experiment
- practice turn one.

In war there is poetry; in death, release. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




One thing I do when list building is take into consideration target saturation. Most lists are going to have something to deal with tanks, and something to deal with a mob. If you come with 1 tank and 1 mob then they are built to kill you. If you are going to take something that can be picked out like a tank, then take more than one. If you bring infantry, bring a lot. Make them choose what they are going to try to kill and whatever is left you get to kill them with.

Example:
3 predators plus guilliman and 2 devastator with an AM bubble group
Not bad, but if you are intending on killshot, prepare to be disappointed, because after turn one odds are a tank would be dead.So what would the alternatives be?
Guilliman, 3 preds, 2 twin assault cannon razorback, a Knight and a light IG bubble.
Now they have to choose to break up your killshot (the better choice) or focus your knight. They have to take one in the teeth.
On the other side, you can go no tanks, so they waste their lascannons killing a marine.
Guilliman, 4 Devastator 10 man snipers an AM bubble.

Round each one off with something specifically for objectives, like a pod with 2 5 man tac squads or scions to drop in.

   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan




Florida

Great advise so far.

Markers. I use poker chips with powers written on them or place the card next to the affected unit.

Place a marker indicating how many models lost in a turn to speed up morale tests.

Bring a list prepared before arriving to a game shop.

Use poker chips or some type of token for Command Points.

Play the same list multiple times. Learn the intricacies with it. I fail at this often, but do see jjow I play much faster with a list I repeatedly use.

Make a cheat sheet for your army. I still forget the LD for units and some weapon stats.

Separate the cards you will actually use and put the others away. There are certain strategems that you can't play in an army, so just put them and psychic powers back in the box.

I find myself playing more aggressively this edition. As a result, I am winning more games. I do play to the objective, but I don't hesitate going right at my opponent`s army putting pressure on turn 1.






No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Deployment strategy should include a few things:

1) where does it look like my opponent is putting his strength? If you can tell where a large block is starting to go down, you have an advantage. For that reason always make sure you start by deploying deep strikers, backfield units, and random wildcard units first before dropping big dependent blocks of models.

2) what's my plan for first/second turn? I see too few people hedging their bets in 8th and getting hosed when they don't get turn 1. Include "designated die-ers" you expect to eat a lot of early flak, based on what won't be terribly effective for you. Leave them a little more accessible to fire - plasma units vs guard or orks, anti tank units vs nice, etc. If you have a TAC list something will not be super useful, don't be afriad to sacrifice it.

3) deploy with fire lanes in mind. Deployment is the perfect time to sneak your units out of LOS of those pesky lascannons, especially if your unit can just pop out from behind the wall and fire on your turn.

Most people I see have the basic grasp of "I should deploy anti tank units where they can see tanks! The intsntry goes in front!" But the three above considerations are what I consider "tier 2 deployment strategy"

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Deployment strategy:

- Place cultists on the back lines in the safest cover possible
- Everything else deep strikes

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




It could probably be summed up as "practice makes perfect".

Play lots >>> get better.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






HATE Club, East London

craftworld_uk wrote:
It could probably be summed up as "practice makes perfect".

Play lots >>> get better.


Yes, but that is veyr simplistic. This thread has a valid place. Each individual game I play is for enjoyment, rather than as a learning experience, so my mind is on having fun during the game, but between games a thread like this can help me focus on getting better.

Though guards may sleep and ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.

Posting as Fifty_Painting on Instagram.

My blog - almost 40 pages of Badab War, Eldar, undead and other assorted projects 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Time management:

- Minor thing, but if you're moving infantry - especially if they're in a relatively neat formation - you can usually just measure movement for a couple of them and then use that as a guide to move the rest. Saves you having to measure for every model.


Strategy/Tactics:

- Firstly, make sure that your units are deployed in useful positions. I've occasionally deployed a couple of units on one flank, only to realise when the game began that there is absolutely nothing of value on that flank.

- On a similar note, be very mindful of where the objectives are. Consider which of your forces will secure your own objectives and which will take your opponent's objectives. For example, in a recent game against harlequins, my opponent put most of his forces on one flank - yet my sole objective was on the other flank. Once I'd wiped out the meagre forces on the flank that actually mattered, my objective was basically safe. Worse still, my opponent's own objective was virtually unguarded - thus allowing me to outflank/deep strike my own stuff their to claim it virtually unopposed.

- Regarding target priority, make sure you target the biggest threat to your army or plan. For example, a Leman Russ Vanquisher with Multi Meltas might look threatening, but if I'm playing infantry IG against it then it might as well be firing fairy-cakes at me for all the good it does. Another example would be with Tyranids - the MCs might look all big and scary, but it's probably going to be the army of gaunts and genestealers that chews threw my lines.


List Building:


- One of the most common mistakes I see here is too many upgrades on one unit. Yeah, a Harlequin with a Fusion Pistol and Harlequin's Kiss is pretty deadly, but it's also a T3 W1 model that costs 30+pts. I'd lean strongly towards giving units only what upgrades they need to fulfil their core function and nothing else. Of course, you may decide to splash out a bit on your favourite models, but I think 'boys before toys' is a good habit to get into.

- Don't take anything you can't afford to lose.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in fi
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




[Expunged from Imperial records] =][=

The advice you are asking is impossible. There is no rhyme or reason to the mistakes that players make as a whole.

Sure, you can maybe predict what kind of mistakes a given player would maybe do... but don't count on it. It might be a ruse... or not.

In the end, what kind of mistakes any player does is highly individual. One player might be too bold with his troopers and the other is too timid.

But how you can you improve? Win or lose, review your matches and always figure out what you could do better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/05 00:55:46


"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!" 
   
Made in fi
Water-Caste Negotiator





Keep the mission in mind. This is something I forget too often. Just lost a game because I forgot we were playing Emperors Will ,or whatever its name is in 8th, on top of maelstrom mission. I almost had my opponent tabled but to my frustration the game ended on turn 5 and my opponent won by his maelstrom score.I would've won if I had one model sitting on my own home objective.

-Heresy grows from idleness- 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'd second keeping the mission in mind.

Really though you learn tactics and fast play by playing. Slow play is typically because you don't know your own units, so first you have to keep checking their rules and then decide what you want them to do.

For list building - its unpopular but to my mind its pure mathhammer. How much damage and survivability are you getting for your points. This means you cut out units which are statistically worse than others in the same pool. Consider how the army will work on the table as a whole too - but its relatively rare that taking a "bad unit" is worth it.

The tournament meta still seems to be shaking out (with a codex being released every 3 weeks its perhaps not surprising) but if your army can't do around 30%-40% of its points in damage output on reasonably good dice from the first turn and onwards you are probably in a bad way. Some assault armies may have to trade off here (swapping light damage in the first turn for a decisive all-in army-wide charge in the second) but with the codexes first turn charges are more and more possible and I'd say they are required.

I'd say this is the biggest difference in tiers at the moment. You take a weak army and in a reasonably good first turn do 300~ points of damage. If they can then respond and do about 800 points they have a good list and you don't. Or at the very least you somehow allowed them to get at all the juicy parts of your list.
   
Made in au
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Oz

DeviationOfWar wrote:
One thing I do when list building is take into consideration target saturation. Most lists are going to have something to deal with tanks, and something to deal with a mob. If you come with 1 tank and 1 mob then they are built to kill you. If you are going to take something that can be picked out like a tank, then take more than one. If you bring infantry, bring a lot. Make them choose what they are going to try to kill and whatever is left you get to kill them with.

Example:
3 predators plus guilliman and 2 devastator with an AM bubble group
Not bad, but if you are intending on killshot, prepare to be disappointed, because after turn one odds are a tank would be dead.So what would the alternatives be?
Guilliman, 3 preds, 2 twin assault cannon razorback, a Knight and a light IG bubble.
Now they have to choose to break up your killshot (the better choice) or focus your knight. They have to take one in the teeth.
On the other side, you can go no tanks, so they waste their lascannons killing a marine.
Guilliman, 4 Devastator 10 man snipers an AM bubble.

Round each one off with something specifically for objectives, like a pod with 2 5 man tac squads or scions to drop in.



I just like that all of your examples include bobby g. Bonus points for the AM bubble in a marine army.

 
   
 
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