Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This will be the first time I run this weapon. Please double check that I am using its rules correctly.
A model ( a plague marine) swings the weapon. His single attack becomes d3 hit rolls. This makes perfect sense to me.
Let's say I roll 3 attacks, hit with all 3. How does this work;
My opponent (let's say he is a guardsman) rolls an armor save, he fails. The guardsman dies. My reading is that the second wound (the weapon causes 2 damage per wound) now carries to a second guardsman, but is in no way a mortal wound as that is never stated. Does the second guardsman now get his armor save? (I think he does) And of course we would repeat for the other 2 wounds caused by the P marine.
Scenario/question 2: Let's say the guardsman struck above, makes his save. He has now saved one wound (which is 2 damage). My reading is that that single armor save stops the WOUND, and therefore BOTH points of damage.
So, in summation I guess; 3 wounds from the flail does NOT mean opponent rolls 6 armor saves, but in reality, only three, and then additional ones if he fails any (fast rolling here of course). All of this assumes striking single wound models. For example using the above scenario: My opponent has 3 wounds on guardsmen. He rolls a 2,3, and 6. He makes one save, two guardsmen die, and he must make an additional two saves. He fails one, and a third guardsman is removed.
Do I have this correct? Or is there some weird thing about once you fail an armor save, the two damage is taken (in this case 1 being carried over and killing another guardsman)?
Thanks for any clarification or rule notations.

As it does not deal mortal wounds, the wounds do not spread. Each attack will get a save, and if failed each will deal 2 wounds to 1 model. If the model only has 1 Wound, the other wound (from that hit) is lost.

"Excess damage from this weapon is not lost, keep allocating damage to another model in the target unit until either all the damage has been allocated or the target is destroyed"

So you fail one save. Two damage is inflicted, which can kill two models.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
"Excess damage from this weapon is not lost, keep allocating damage to another model in the target unit until either all the damage has been allocated or the target is destroyed"

So you fail one save. Two damage is inflicted, which can kill two models.

I did not know this part. As such Captyn_Bob would be correct.

Captyn Bob, you say "Can" kill two models. Sounds like you agree, the second guy gets his save? My logic: Since allocation goes before armor saves, it sounds like yes? (Of course we have now re allocated an already allocated WOUND that caused 2 damage?)

But you make saves against wounds not damage, so the fact that the second guardsman is allocated damage and not a wound would bypass armour saves would it not?

Mrhappyface, that is a good point. There are things that save vs damage (disgustingly resilient for example...I had to make 12 of those for my lord of contagion against one models shooting, bastard rolled 2 sixes with twin lascannon) however, armor saves do say against wounds.
This makes me lean toward the second victim of the flail's single wound does not get a save because it says in its rule you are allocating damage. Anyone?

Now, what's the real secret mrhappyface? Why are you always so happy???

edwardmyst wrote:
Now, what's the real secret mrhappyface? Why are you always so happy???

A pint at the local pub and knowing the EU is slowly crumbling.

You make one save against the wound roll. Then the damage is allocated. Exactly like if it was a multi wound model (who doesn't get to save against each point of damage) but in this case the multi wound model is the whole unit.

Stuff like disgustingly resilient wound still save against each point of damage as normal.

I would say poor word choice by GW once again, damage should be wounds. If they wanted to bypass armor, or invuln saves with it they would have written mortal wounds. But this is only speculation on my part.

You hit a tac marine squad, 2 hits; 1 wound, 1 failed save; 2 Tac marines die. That’s how we’ve played it and I don’t see the argument against it. I’d happily roll more dice to keep my stuff alive though.

Okay, seems clear and I will play it the same way. Thanks Dakka!

Let me quote from the core rules :

3. Allocate Wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit (the chosen model does not have to be within range or visible to the attacking unit). If a model in the target unit has already lost any wounds, the damage must be allocated to that model.

The red highlighted sentence speaks of damage, not wounds, which must be allocated to that model. Damage = wounds. Now read the flail rule again. If a 1 wound model makes its saving throw another 1 wound model must also make a saving throw against an ordinary wound. Its doesnt automatically kill another model.

I fail to see how the text in red has any bearing on the flail rules. Sorry.
You don't take saves against each point of damage a weapon does.

In agreement with Bob here, the quoted text makes absolutely no reference to damage=wounds, just means that once the wound has passed through the units save the damage must be allocated to a model which has already lost a wound first.

The quoted red text says that damage must be allocated to the model which already lost a wound. Yes, this has nothing to do with the flail rule. Its the word damage in that sentence. The same word damage is used in the flail rule. If we apply your flail ruling (damage = automatic kill) the already wounded model would automatically get killed, no saving throw. Thats wrong. The wounded model normally has an armor or invuln sv, against another regular wound.
Excess damage from the flail is a regular wound, which is allocated to another model, which then can make an armor or invuln sv. Damage is not a mortal wound, its a regular wound.

I'm sorry, but everything you've inferred is wrong. You've already attempted to save against the wound for that unit, now damage is being allocated. Nothing in any of the rules says excess damage suddenly becomes a regular wound, if what you've inferred is correct then we'd have to make a saving throw for the wound and then the damage that wound did.

Shoot a Tactical Squad with a Krak Missile, model takes an armour save, fails, takes d6 damage, kills Tactical Marine.

Hit a Tactical Squad with Flail of Corruption, model takes an armour save, fails, takes 1 damage, kills Tactical Marine, second Tactical Marine takes 1 damage, dies.

Nice and simple, No where in the Flail's ability does it mention wounds it's all damage, so no saves on the rest of the squad

In the core rules it also says damage, but that does not mean that the model automatically gets killed.

p5freak wrote:
In the core rules it also says damage, but that does not mean that the model automatically gets killed.

It does if the model doesn't have anything to negate damage as apposed to wounds and only has 1wound left.

 mrhappyface wrote:

p5freak wrote:
In the core rules it also says damage, but that does not mean that the model automatically gets killed.

It does if the model doesn't have anything to negate damage as apposed to wounds and only has 1wound left.

Imagine your 2 wound model unit is getting shot, with an AP-2 D1 weapon, your models have a 3+ armor sv. One shot wounds, you fail your armor save, one models loses a wound. Now you get shot again, from another unit with the same AP-2 D1 weapon. And you get wounded again. You must allocate this damage to the already wounded model, thats written in the core rules, i quoted that above. Does that model have an armor sv against that wound ?

p5freak wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

p5freak wrote:
In the core rules it also says damage, but that does not mean that the model automatically gets killed.

It does if the model doesn't have anything to negate damage as apposed to wounds and only has 1wound left.

Imagine your 2 wound model unit is getting shot, with an AP-2 D1 weapon, your models have a 3+ armor sv. One shot wounds, you fail your armor save, one models loses a wound. Now you get shot again, from another unit with the same AP-2 D1 weapon. And you get wounded again. You must allocate this damage to the already wounded model, thats written in the core rules, i quoted that above. Does that model have an armor sv against that wound ?

That's entirely true but it in no way supports your argument that you making a saving throw against damage.

Yeah, it's pretty clear how it works. You saved (or, well, failed to save) against the wound. The wound turns into 2 damage, which DOES SPILL OVER. You already had your chance to save, so unless you have a FNP equivalent, two models die (if they're all one wound).

Yeah, as damage is being done, and models are losing wounds, you don't go back in time to a previous step to do another save for the same attack that already went through.

1 attack, 1 save.

 mrhappyface wrote:

p5freak wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

p5freak wrote:
In the core rules it also says damage, but that does not mean that the model automatically gets killed.

It does if the model doesn't have anything to negate damage as apposed to wounds and only has 1wound left.

Imagine your 2 wound model unit is getting shot, with an AP-2 D1 weapon, your models have a 3+ armor sv. One shot wounds, you fail your armor save, one models loses a wound. Now you get shot again, from another unit with the same AP-2 D1 weapon. And you get wounded again. You must allocate this damage to the already wounded model, thats written in the core rules, i quoted that above. Does that model have an armor sv against that wound ?

That's entirely true but it in no way supports your argument that you making a saving throw against damage.

The core rules also mention damage, i quoted it, highlighted in red. Dont you see the word damage in that sentence ? Damage is just another word for wound. Blame GW for poor word choice. Just like you allocate damage (=wound) to an already wounded model, damage (=wound) from the flail spills over to another model which then can make a sv roll (if possible), because its just a wound.

If you still dont agree with me, where in the rules does it say that damage is similiar to a mortal wound ? That you cant make a sv roll against damage ?

You're conflating two separate concepts. I do agree GW named some things poorly, but you suffer a wound, which turns into 2 damage. Each point of damage reduces your wound total by 1, but importantly, once you make your save and move on to the damage step, THERE ARE NO MORE SAVES.

Nowhere in that sentence does it state that damage is wound, equivalent or otherwise. You’re making that up.

Let me put it this why. A Terminator (with two wounds) suffers a hit from an Autocannon (which does two damage). The Terminator fails his save, and takes two damage.

Under your logic, he gets a second save against the second bit of damage, and will most likely survive.

Also important to note that additional attacks from death to the false emperor generate d3 additional attacks each.

I am going with no save here.
And thanks for the reminder on Death to the False Emperor. They generate and additional attack, which becomes d3 due to the weapon (but cannot generate additional attacks)
I SOOOOOOOOOOO badly want my blightlord termy with that flail to go on a hot streak and wipe out 48 conscript models...roll max 6 attacks, roll all 6's (yeah I know. . . ) and roll max again..for 18 swings, each hits and wounds and bam...24 hits, each wiping out 2 guys. Impossible? well, improbable, but its all about those 6's to hit...his Strength is 6 so he wounds on 2+ and re-rolls 1's (plague weapon) and conscripts get no save against the weapon...
Of course, it just occurred to me that he needs to kill like 22 to make his points back...
I can see why they kept this out of champions and characters hands.

Edited to fix math errors...because...well...History Major way back when