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Basic idea for chapter tactics for them:

In your movement phase, you may elect to have a unit Dig In instead of Advancing. A Dug In unit improves their saves by 1 until the start of your next turn, but counts as having Advanced for the purposes of firing weapons, charging, etc.

And then a Stratagem:

Preemptive Defensive Measures
1 CP

Select d3 units. These units may start the game Dug In. This stratagem is used before the game starts.

Not sure what their Warlord trait or Relic would be, though.

Seems... reasonable. *ba dum tish!*

I'm not sure this meshes with the fluff though. The idea is that they're pausing to entrench themselves or use cover, right? It seems like that should prevent them from moving at all, not just moving quickly. Surely they aren't pausing every couple of yards to dig a new trench or something, right? This rule makes them good at moving forward regardless of where cover is rather than encouraging them to take advantage of cover.

What would you think of the following?

"As long as one model in the squad is touching cover, the entire unit counts as being on that piece of cover. "

So this makes you good at advancing through cover and gives you more flexibility in how you position your unit. As long as you're sort of kind of near terrain, you can reliably give your dudes 2+ armor saves.

Eh... The reason I didn't simply make it a cover thing is that a lot of stuff ignores it.

The idea is that they're actively bracing themselves for oncoming attacks, using their armor to the best of its abilities.

And it does completely stop them from Assaulting or firing anything other than Assault Weapons.

Doesn't seem terribly useful to be honest. If they counted as advancing that means no firing of even the super basic weapons they have.

LOL!

"Ah, brother Marines, what does your chapter do? I've not seen those colours before."

"Well, you see, we give every 5th man a flamethrower or meltagun, and then everyone else just has entrenching tools!"

"WHAT? No holy Bolter?"

"Have you tried digging a trench while firing a bolter?"

"Brother... have you tried not digging a trench?"

Do you not use ruins in your games? Or is this an attempt to raise your saves by +2? What happens if a terminator digs in and in cover?

 skchsan wrote:
Do you not use ruins in your games? Or is this an attempt to raise your saves by +2? What happens if a terminator digs in and in cover?

Then the basic weapons that most units carry do the same amount of damage?

So it seems the verdict is that this is too weak.

How can I buff this to bring it on par with the others?

Honestly, if you're blowing your whole chapter tactic on it, just have the following:

[Trait] Any unit that gains the benefit of Cover gains an additional +1 as well as of any other modifiers.

[Stratagem] Combat Engineering 1/XCP Spend this stratagem during deployment but before the game starts if your warlord is a Reasonable Marine Character. Any terrain piece on the board may give an extra +1 cover save. If your Warlord is a Reasonable Marine Techmarine, then any amount of CP may be spent instead. If this is done, a single Fortification may be included in the relevant army list with a power level equal to (or less than) twice the number of CPs spent. This Fortification may not have any upgrades.

[Relic] The Fortress Shield: Reasonable Marine Infantry Character with an Iron Halo only. This shield grants the bearer a 3+ Invulnerable Save. Additionally, once per enemy shooting phase, its field may be extended to a cover any nearby unit. A single unit within 3" of the bearer gets +1 to its saving throws until the end of the phase. Unlike most auras, however, the bearer himself may not benefit from this use of the shield.

[Warlord Trait] Reasonableness: The warlord's clarity of thought and intimate understanding of warfare has long since made him realize that Space Marines are a silly idea. Your army is actually Astra Militarum and may not take any space marine units.


(Okay the last one is a joke).

Eh... Not a fan of that trait. Requires you to hug cover, is ignored by anything that ignores cover, and is literally only useful for scouts and people with Invulns.

Strategem suffers from similar issues.

I do like the relic, though.

And that Warlord trait made me laugh out loud, so props to you, good sir!

The first one is essentially what some traits are though. If you want, it can be a -1 to hit in cover ...

... and I thought hugging cover was the point? Let the tanks and guys inside armoured carriers do the advancing. That's what's 'reasonable' right?

The stratagem can be altered, but I was trying to think of something that stayed on-theme. If you want, it can be something related to vehicles, e.g. Armoured Advance: The Reasonable Marines utilize armoured personnel carriers to advance upon the enemy, rather than trying to walk across no-man's land like it's World War 1. Use this stratagem on a unit embarked on a transport within 12" of an enemy unit. The unit may immediately charge out of the transport, measuring range from the transport's hull (no extra 3" like a normal disembark). The enemy unit may fire overwatch at the charging unit, though it is otherwise subject to all the normal rules.

Considering how bad cover is in 8th... No, I'd prefer a trait that works more consistently.

The Armoured Advance, though... That's not bad. I don't think it's enough to be an entire chapter trait on its own, but it's good.

Maybe I should allow them extra equipment options? Obviously paying for them, but outfitting everyone to their best seems like a good choice. (Especially with defensive gear.)

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The first one is essentially what some traits are though. If you want, it can be a -1 to hit in cover ...

... and I thought hugging cover was the point? Let the tanks and guys inside armoured carriers do the advancing. That's what's 'reasonable' right?

The stratagem can be altered, but I was trying to think of something that stayed on-theme. If you want, it can be something related to vehicles, e.g. Armoured Advance: The Reasonable Marines utilize armoured personnel carriers to advance upon the enemy, rather than trying to walk across no-man's land like it's World War 1. Use this stratagem on a unit embarked on a transport within 12" of an enemy unit. The unit may immediately charge out of the transport, measuring range from the transport's hull (no extra 3" like a normal disembark). The enemy unit may fire overwatch at the charging unit, though it is otherwise subject to all the normal rules.

Hugging cover is fine but the trait is bad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The first one is essentially what some traits are though. If you want, it can be a -1 to hit in cover ...

... and I thought hugging cover was the point? Let the tanks and guys inside armoured carriers do the advancing. That's what's 'reasonable' right?

The stratagem can be altered, but I was trying to think of something that stayed on-theme. If you want, it can be something related to vehicles, e.g. Armoured Advance: The Reasonable Marines utilize armoured personnel carriers to advance upon the enemy, rather than trying to walk across no-man's land like it's World War 1. Use this stratagem on a unit embarked on a transport within 12" of an enemy unit. The unit may immediately charge out of the transport, measuring range from the transport's hull (no extra 3" like a normal disembark). The enemy unit may fire overwatch at the charging unit, though it is otherwise subject to all the normal rules.

Hugging cover is fine but the trait is bad.

Oh, I thought we were basing this on fluff, not rules. I figured better benefit from cover would make sense. How about a trait that makes cover unable to be denied? E.g. "A Reasonable Marine unit will always get any relevant cover bonuses to their saves, regardless of any other rules that may apply."

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The first one is essentially what some traits are though. If you want, it can be a -1 to hit in cover ...

... and I thought hugging cover was the point? Let the tanks and guys inside armoured carriers do the advancing. That's what's 'reasonable' right?

The stratagem can be altered, but I was trying to think of something that stayed on-theme. If you want, it can be something related to vehicles, e.g. Armoured Advance: The Reasonable Marines utilize armoured personnel carriers to advance upon the enemy, rather than trying to walk across no-man's land like it's World War 1. Use this stratagem on a unit embarked on a transport within 12" of an enemy unit. The unit may immediately charge out of the transport, measuring range from the transport's hull (no extra 3" like a normal disembark). The enemy unit may fire overwatch at the charging unit, though it is otherwise subject to all the normal rules.

Hugging cover is fine but the trait is bad.

Oh, I thought we were basing this on fluff, not rules. I figured better benefit from cover would make sense. How about a trait that makes cover unable to be denied? E.g. "A Reasonable Marine unit will always get any relevant cover bonuses to their saves, regardless of any other rules that may apply."

So basically Ignores Ignores Cover. Not totally a fan.

A straight +2 to cover saves might be better if a little funky that Terminators take a lot to get down whereas they're still failing saves on a 1.

Also a neat idea could be rerolling failed saves of 1 while in cover.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The first one is essentially what some traits are though. If you want, it can be a -1 to hit in cover ...

... and I thought hugging cover was the point? Let the tanks and guys inside armoured carriers do the advancing. That's what's 'reasonable' right?

The stratagem can be altered, but I was trying to think of something that stayed on-theme. If you want, it can be something related to vehicles, e.g. Armoured Advance: The Reasonable Marines utilize armoured personnel carriers to advance upon the enemy, rather than trying to walk across no-man's land like it's World War 1. Use this stratagem on a unit embarked on a transport within 12" of an enemy unit. The unit may immediately charge out of the transport, measuring range from the transport's hull (no extra 3" like a normal disembark). The enemy unit may fire overwatch at the charging unit, though it is otherwise subject to all the normal rules.

Hugging cover is fine but the trait is bad.

Oh, I thought we were basing this on fluff, not rules. I figured better benefit from cover would make sense. How about a trait that makes cover unable to be denied? E.g. "A Reasonable Marine unit will always get any relevant cover bonuses to their saves, regardless of any other rules that may apply."

So basically Ignores Ignores Cover. Not totally a fan.

A straight +2 to cover saves might be better if a little funky that Terminators take a lot to get down whereas they're still failing saves on a 1.

Also a neat idea could be rerolling failed saves of 1 while in cover.

The problem with re-rolling failed saves of 1 while in cover is that AP0 weapons essentially go from 'bad' to 'completely useless'. A 2+ save with a re-roll should never be a thing (unless it costs resources. Like, it'd be a good stratagem).

How about this:
If a Reasonable Marine unit does not move, it gains the benefits of cover. If it is already in cover, it adds an additional +1 to armor saves when gaining the benefits of cover.

Basically your trench ability, but instead of replacing Advance, it replaces Movement.

Waaaghpower wrote:
How about this:
If a Reasonable Marine unit does not move, it gains the benefits of cover. If it is already in cover, it adds an additional +1 to armor saves when gaining the benefits of cover.

Basically your trench ability, but instead of replacing Advance, it replaces Movement.

While better, it feels almost TOO good for camping lists.