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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Got a questions about spore mines which could makes them act abit silly

Say i have 3 spore mines which end up in the charge phase next to a lone tau firewarrior.
They all trigger the rules for exploading.

do you resolve the exploding one by one, example first one explodes and kills firewarrior so rest dont cus there no model there to trigger them.
or is it they all explode and you resolve explosion for all.

if they all explode my next quesions is about resolving the damage
The spore mines say they damage the nearest enamy unit.

So if the first one exploded and kill tau firewarrior, because the rules say if it causes a mortal wound if inflicts it on the nearest enamy unit, the next 2 than injure another unit that is over 18 inchs away cus there the next nearest unit.

Rules as written that seems crazy!.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

The only way to make it make sense if all trigger at once is to resolve all at once. So you'd have serious MW overkill on one poor blue chap.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






They will all trigger, the sequencing rule allows whoever's turn it is to decide the order they explode, then they all explode.

"A Spore Mine explodes if it is within 3" of any enemy units at the end of any Charge phase." It doesn't matter if it somehow finds itself more than 3" away from an enemy, it's already triggered it's demise at the end of the Charge phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/22 12:45:01


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






The effect triggers at the beginning of the phase.

When multiple effects trigger at the same time the sequencing rules state that the players whos turn it is determines the order of operations.

So to start, you would be activating each one, one at a time, with the current turns player choosing which one activates first.

Now... as to if they continue to blow up the enemy models are dead... I would say yes. Because the extra mortal wounds should be able to carry over to other models within the unit even if the triggering model is now dead. The prerequisite was already met.

It does appear the RAW allows them to get crazy range on their shrapnel. I personally wouldn't play it that way but I can't think of a RAW that would have it work otherwise.



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






pg 103 "A Spore Mine Explodes if it is within 3" of any enemy units at the end of any Charge Phase"

So you both had a bit of it wrong.

About "when each one does this" i cant quote rules but from a couple other faq's im sure its either at the same time, or the player picks.

This is a hard one and needs to be asked of GW, they most likely will answer.


   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Given how much they are answering, all signs point to the contrary ;-)

They wouldn't FAQ the Index though, they'd wait and do it in the Codex FAQ. So ask away on Facebook when the Codex is out!

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Edit: If you go by page 178, nothing can happen at the same time, whos ever turn it is gets to pick.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/23 01:05:09


   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Amishprn86 wrote:
pg 103 "A Spore Mine Explodes if it is within 3" of any enemy units at the end of any Charge Phase"

So you both had a bit of it wrong.

About "when each one does this" i cant quote rules but from a couple other faq's im sure its either at the same time, or the player picks.

This is a hard one and needs to be asked of GW, they most likely will answer.



Good catch.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Edit: If you go by page 178, nothing can happen at the same time, whos ever turn it is gets to pick.


Well, they get resolved one at a time, but they do all take place "at the same time" because they all trigger simultaneously.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/23 02:25:33



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Lance845 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
pg 103 "A Spore Mine Explodes if it is within 3" of any enemy units at the end of any Charge Phase"

So you both had a bit of it wrong.

About "when each one does this" i cant quote rules but from a couple other faq's im sure its either at the same time, or the player picks.

This is a hard one and needs to be asked of GW, they most likely will answer.



Good catch.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Edit: If you go by page 178, nothing can happen at the same time, whos ever turn it is gets to pick.


Well, they get resolved one at a time, but they do all take place "at the same time" because they all trigger simultaneously.


Thats the main question, on a Nids Facebook group it seems they are torwards it is another simultaneously trigger and would again follow pg 178 rules so they never would trigger if they fall outside of 3" due to casualties.

But there is still room for debate.

   
Made in us
Norn Queen






I don't think follow 178 means they would no trigger if it results in not being within 3".

It's like when you choose targets for all your guns. Just because you resolve each gun one at a time doesn't mean those targets were not declared simultaneously and in effect shot all at once. With shooting you check range when you declare targets. Models being removed taking the unit out of range doesn't stop you from shooting the next gun. Your already past the checking range step at this point. The difference is the spore mines don't declare a target. They simply hand out their damage to the nearest enemy unit. Which continues to be the case so long as the enemy has any enemy units left on the table.

it's poor wording that result in insane results. But there it is. So...

1) At the end of the phase you check to see who is within 3". All of the mines that are explode.
2) the player whos turn it is chooses order of operations for who blows up first, second, etc etc
3) each successful explosion deals it's damage to the nearest enemy unit. Range isn't a factor beyond the triggering condition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/23 10:07:57



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Lance845 wrote:
I don't think follow 178 means they would no trigger if it results in not being within 3".

It's like when you choose targets for all your guns. Just because you resolve each gun one at a time doesn't mean those targets were not declared simultaneously and in effect shot all at once. With shooting you check range when you declare targets. Models being removed taking the unit out of range doesn't stop you from shooting the next gun. Your already past the checking range step at this point. The difference is the spore mines don't declare a target. They simply hand out their damage to the nearest enemy unit. Which continues to be the case so long as the enemy has any enemy units left on the table.

it's poor wording that result in insane results. But there it is. So...

1) At the end of the phase you check to see who is within 3". All of the mines that are explode.
2) the player whos turn it is chooses order of operations for who blows up first, second, etc etc
3) each successful explosion deals it's damage to the nearest enemy unit. Range isn't a factor beyond the triggering condition.


There is a rule for Fast Dice that lets you do that for attacks (it calls out attacks), thats why you can with shooting attacks, Spore Mine Launcher is a gun AND it is is a different rule than Spore Mines themselve, it is a weapon with a profile that "only when you miss" do you place a Spore and then you follow the Spore Rules for that spore. Since the Spore is not attacking its an ability, it cant use Fast Dice rolling rules. When 2 rules happen at the same time you must choose what to do 1st, thats the importance of pg 178.

1) End of phase, Check range
2) 2 or more are in range, so you refer to rule on page 178 for sequencing
3) Resolve 1 at a time


Does that make since?

   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
I don't think follow 178 means they would no trigger if it results in not being within 3".

It's like when you choose targets for all your guns. Just because you resolve each gun one at a time doesn't mean those targets were not declared simultaneously and in effect shot all at once. With shooting you check range when you declare targets. Models being removed taking the unit out of range doesn't stop you from shooting the next gun. Your already past the checking range step at this point. The difference is the spore mines don't declare a target. They simply hand out their damage to the nearest enemy unit. Which continues to be the case so long as the enemy has any enemy units left on the table.

it's poor wording that result in insane results. But there it is. So...

1) At the end of the phase you check to see who is within 3". All of the mines that are explode.
2) the player whos turn it is chooses order of operations for who blows up first, second, etc etc
3) each successful explosion deals it's damage to the nearest enemy unit. Range isn't a factor beyond the triggering condition.


There is a rule for Fast Dice that lets you do that for attacks (it calls out attacks), thats why you can with shooting attacks, Spore Mine Launcher is a gun AND it is is a different rule than Spore Mines themselve, it is a weapon with a profile that "only when you miss" do you place a Spore and then you follow the Spore Rules for that spore. Since the Spore is not attacking its an ability, it cant use Fast Dice rolling rules. When 2 rules happen at the same time you must choose what to do 1st, thats the importance of pg 178.

1) End of phase, Check range
2) 2 or more are in range, so you refer to rule on page 178 for sequencing
3) Resolve 1 at a time


Does that make since?


I think we might be saying the same thing at each other. Let me try to clarify

You have 2 spore mines next to a dread with 1 wound left. They are both within 3 inches of the dread but not within 3" of any other enemy model.

-End of phase you check range. They both qualify.
-Now 2 effects are triggering at the same time. Pg. 178 sequencing.
-One mine is selected and resolved. The dread dies.
-The second mine is selected and resolved, closest enemy unit suffers the mortal wound/s if any.

Range was verified at the beginning before any explosions took place. You don't have to keep checking for it.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






But then your checking the distance of more than 1 at the same time via a rule and since it is at the same time you refer to page 178 and short them 1 by 1.


Its hard to say, i'm not really for one way or the other, but i think as RAW it is follow pg 178 for all instances of the spore mines rules, it would be different IF the spore mine said "Check distance 1st (comma) then explode" but it is worded, "if its within 3" it explodes", there is no break or separation on the exploding and the checking, it happens at the same time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/23 20:40:53


   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

It doesn't make any logical sense for a Spore Mine that usually only affects a unit within 3", max, to suddenly gain an 18" range, so it's probably safe to say that's not the correct way to play it.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn't make any logical sense for a Spore Mine that usually only affects a unit within 3", max, to suddenly gain an 18" range, so it's probably safe to say that's not the correct way to play it.


WTF are you talking about? No one said anything about 18" range. The problem is if 2+ are within 3" of 1 model and that 1 model dies, does the other spore still activate or not.... Nothing about long range.

   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 Amishprn86 wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn't make any logical sense for a Spore Mine that usually only affects a unit within 3", max, to suddenly gain an 18" range, so it's probably safe to say that's not the correct way to play it.


WTF are you talking about? No one said anything about 18" range. The problem is if 2+ are within 3" of 1 model and that 1 model dies, does the other spore still activate or not.... Nothing about long range.


Did you actually read the OP?

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 JohnnyHell wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn't make any logical sense for a Spore Mine that usually only affects a unit within 3", max, to suddenly gain an 18" range, so it's probably safe to say that's not the correct way to play it.


WTF are you talking about? No one said anything about 18" range. The problem is if 2+ are within 3" of 1 model and that 1 model dies, does the other spore still activate or not.... Nothing about long range.


Did you actually read the OP?



I actually miss read that part, i take fault.

They are the same rule in the same sentence (no break in the sentence like comma or periods it says "if within 3" then explodes" so you do those 2 things at the same time), it cant explode without being within 3".
If thats part of the sequencing rules, if follow pg 178 rules then that will never happen b.c you have to target them 1 by 1 and check the rules 1 by 1, but if they dont follow sequencing rules then they trigger at the same time and they all hit the same unit before that unit is removed and will never hit anything farther away than 3". So either way it cant hurt anything past 3".

Grammar (english hard for me)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/24 11:11:44


   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Thanks for the feedback , i just wanted to make sure that it wasnt a rule i had misread or another rule that determains the order, from sounds of it it could be read either way and hopefully it something they will resolve in the new codex.

for now im going to play it affect only units within 3 inchs as that makes sense, anything else is silly.

   
 
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