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So now that we know the WK did NOT drop in points or change significantly* is there any reason to revisit it or add it to a list in 8th
*the only changes are that the Sword is 35pts less than before and the Heavy Wrathcannons are str16 instead of 10.

An Alaitoc WK with Waithcannons could be decent to sit back and pop shots at big targets since it wounds everything (that I can thing of) on 2+
Unfortunately, I feel like 2-3 Fire Prisms can achieve this very thing for much less points.

So it looks like the Glaive/Shield WK is the only viable option since nothing else in the Eldar line can move as fast AND hit as hard (so while it is still over costed, at least nothing else in the army can "fill its role")
The added bonus here is that you can use the 35pts it went down to add 2 Starcannons.
Index WK with Glaive/Shield and no shoulder weapons - 487pts
Codex WK with Glaive/Shield and 2 Star cannons - 482pts

Still probably hot garbage, but some of us would like a viable way to put our pain-stakingly painted center piece model back on the table
Thoughts?

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If they're still fast you can get the charge on larger models first. Seems like a needs-to-strike-first kinda model seeing the rules off-hand.

Its more costly than Mortarion, if you could have a WK or Mortarion what one would you pick?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Its more costly than Mortarion, if you could have a WK or Mortarion what one would you pick?

I haven't seen the rules for Mortarion at all, but I can gather from the tone of your post that he is leaps and bounds better than a WK.
However, I don't play Chaos, and if I didn it wouldn't be Nurgle. I do, however, have a magnetized WK that I can play in my Eldar army

I was really hoping that one of the Eldar Stratagems would allow the WK to drop in rather than spend a possible turn getting shot at. Alas, it looks like neither of the deployment stratagems will affect the WK as one if for Infantry/Bikes and the other is Vehicles only.
It makes me want to spend the extra 100+pts (yes, spending MORE points on a WK) to field a Skathach WK because at least it can drop in and do something before it dies.

Speaking of, what is the best CW attribute for a WK? Biel-tan is near worthless, Ulthwe & Iyanden are about equally ok, Alaitoc seems standard for the ranged WKs and Saim-Hann seems only relevant for a Skathach WK to charge after dropping in, but otherwise situational.

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Just know 3+/4++/5+++, 3 powers, Fly, re-roll 1's aura, -1 toughness aura, a insane pistol, etc.. etc...

Getting Strength 16 on the Heavy Wraithcannons does help a bit, it means they now wound T6/7/8 on 2+ and wound T10 (lol) on 3+. The new Fire Prisms are definitely going to be more efficient and overall tougher I feel but they also don't have the situational melee capabilities of the Wraithknight. Still not great but it is better, the Craftworld traits will help it - an Alaitoc Wraithknight is no joke.

I'd imagine the melee build might become popular by virtue of getting a 5+ invulnerable save and the discount. Add Ulthwe's 6+ Feel No Pain or Saim-Hann's re-roll charges on and you've got yourself a half decent decent line-breaker.

I've not read up too much on stratagems, do any of them really interact with Wraithknights?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Just know 3+/4++/5+++, 3 powers, Fly, re-roll 1's aura, -1 toughness aura, a insane pistol, etc.. etc...

Don't forget his melee stats are ludicrous too

An alaitoc wraithknight is an absolute joke XD

Wraithknights probably wouldn't see tables often if they cost 100 points less.

drakerocket wrote:
An alaitoc wraithknight is an absolute joke XD

Wraithknights probably wouldn't see tables often if they cost 100 points less.

At 400pts max (with shoulder guns), I would totally add a WK to my lists. As it stands, I have to spend 650pts just to get to use a WK for 1 turn before getting blown off the table

Caederes wrote:
Getting Strength 16 on the Heavy Wraithcannons does help a bit, it means they now wound T6/7/8 on 2+ and wound T10 (lol) on 3+. The new Fire Prisms are definitely going to be more efficient and overall tougher I feel but they also don't have the situational melee capabilities of the Wraithknight. Still not great but it is better, the Craftworld traits will help it - an Alaitoc Wraithknight is no joke.

I'd imagine the melee build might become popular by virtue of getting a 5+ invulnerable save and the discount. Add Ulthwe's 6+ Feel No Pain or Saim-Hann's re-roll charges on and you've got yourself a half decent decent line-breaker.

I've not read up too much on stratagems, do any of them really interact with Wraithknights?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Just know 3+/4++/5+++, 3 powers, Fly, re-roll 1's aura, -1 toughness aura, a insane pistol, etc.. etc...

Don't forget his melee stats are ludicrous too

The couple that you want and can (from what i've seen) you need a Pysker within 6" to gain Dbl melee attacks (this is the good one IMO, but you need a Psyker in range of the combat) and the other is just a 7" movement (but cant charge) after you shoot. Neither are really good enough for a 500pt unit.

Makes me glad I never spammed Wraithknights during 7th ed. Still, it would be nice to be able to field the one I do have without handicapping myself. :(

It still feels pretty weak to me.
Glaive + dual Star cannon is also what I would go for, hoping the opponent has some nice expensive tanks. It's so sad the glaive doesn't give additional attacks like chainswords. At least you wouldn't feel like you wasted you points when you end up using nothing but the feet.

Do we know if the spiritseer's aura is still the same? If it affected CWE models instead of enemies, it could go well with a WK (it would stay behind and cast powers, while being protected/providing buffs).
And there is still hope that the bonesinger will be decent with wraith constructs.

What I have seen in battle reports is that a WK goes down early in the game by lascannon shots and similar weapons.
Cover is something it hardly gets thanks to the new rules.
I'll leave mine home atm. Not sure if the new codex brings something new.

As sad as it makes me that I won't be using them much in the future I am also glad that I can keep them in my display case without bother.

Probably the most fun model to paint and assemble.

 Galef wrote:

Speaking of, what is the best CW attribute for a WK? Biel-tan is near worthless, Ulthwe & Iyanden are about equally ok, Alaitoc seems standard for the ranged WKs and Saim-Hann seems only relevant for a Skathach WK to charge after dropping in, but otherwise situational.
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Alatoic is the only real option here. I mean, it's not quite as extreme as for Hemlocks, but there's still almost no real game where you prefer any of the others. So in order from worst to best:

Biel-Tan does absolutely nothing except slightly buff shuriken cannons if you were taking those, which you weren't.

You get almost all of the benefit of Saim-Hann by being willing to spend a CP to re-roll one die in a failed charge.

You're probably casting Fortune on your Wraithknight, so you don't get much out of Ulthwe except as a little bit of turn 1 insurance.

Iyanden is just a pretty weak effect. You'll maybe get +1 BS/WS and some extra movement on it for a single turn, probably. It's not like people ignore an 8-wound WK because it's only hitting on a 4+.

Meanwhile, Alatoic is great turn 1 protection and even protects you from lascannons at fairly close range because these can't typically move and shoot without penalty. The only scary things it doesn't help you with are rapid-fire plasma and meltas, but you can avoid these turn 1 and after that you'll have Fortune, at least.

If your going shooting then Alaitoc for sure, Melee then Lyanden so you can attack 2x (Iyanden has that thing where you can have a psycker give a constructs dbl the attacks).

But since that is only once per game, i'd rather just have wraithblades getting that, 60 S7 ap and d3 damage seems better for the points, especially when they can DS and gain +2 to the charge.

My only concern with Alaitoc is that it is a trait that can be ignored if you get close enough and the WK is not cheap enough to keep at range. You NEED that WK to close with the enemy, even a "shooting" variant.
The Skathach WK will almost always be within 12" of several enemy units (unless you get lucky enough to vaporized a couple units on his drop)

 Galef wrote:
My only concern with Alaitoc is that it is a trait that can be ignored if you get close enough and the WK is not cheap enough to keep at range. You NEED that WK to close with the enemy, even a "shooting" variant.
The Skathach WK will almost always be within 12" of several enemy units (unless you get lucky enough to vaporized a couple units on his drop)

Sure, but you're not going to be within 12" of their whole army. Like, what are you worried about? You only need to be 12.1" away from infantry and most vehicles with heavy weapons because if they move they'll be at -1 anyway. You only need to be 17.1" away from even a Leman Russ to make sure it can't shoot you with its turret weapon. There's a pretty narrow band here where the things you're worried about can shoot you at normal BS but you can't charge them and tie them up. The biggest threat to you is something like a Shadowsword that can move 10" and shoot but this is killing any Wraithknight unless you deal with it ASAP -- it has a decent chance of killing an Iyanden WK without an invulnerable save in a single volley.

It's true that Iyanden has that relic. I'd forgotten about it. That's awfully tricky to pull off well but could be useful.

Bleh. My army is painted Sam-Hainn colours, and the attribute is utter rubbish for the style of army I've gone for,

Would it have killed them to make all SH units able to move and fire HW without penalty?

Also, poor WK. Why on earth didn't they drop his base cost? Just beyond dumb.

At least we have some combo's now.

I think its best as Iyanden due to the amount of wounds you can take and still hit on 3's. I think the biggest downside to the WK is its brackets.

Definitely take the sword and board. I wouldnt even take the extra weapons either. Quicken the WK for a 1st turn charge and then profit!

I think its a decent distraction. I dont think we will see many, not because its "bad", but instead because we have so many options now.

its hard to take a WK when we can make nice brigades now. CP for days!

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Galef wrote:
My only concern with Alaitoc is that it is a trait that can be ignored if you get close enough and the WK is not cheap enough to keep at range. You NEED that WK to close with the enemy, even a "shooting" variant.
The Skathach WK will almost always be within 12" of several enemy units (unless you get lucky enough to vaporized a couple units on his drop)

Sure, but you're not going to be within 12" of their whole army. Like, what are you worried about?

Lots of armies can deepstrike serious threats 9" away thus negating the Alaitoc trait. Most flyers can fly right into 12" range on turn 1 too. Aggressive armies will reach you turn1 with a few units, most of their units by turn 2 and all of their army by turn 3.

Assault doesn't care about the Alaitoc trait either.

Then if Alaitoc truly ends up being the popular choice, in a tournament setting you're going to run into the mirror match of Alaitoc vs. Alaitoc.

Something to possibly ponder: the Suncannon is a flat D:2 instead of D: D3. With Starcannons being halved in cost, the Suncannon/Starcannon WK looks interesting, if still probably worse than the melee or wraithcannon WK.

The problem with Suncannon to my mind is that it does not pack a great deal of wallop against vehicles and Eldar are not short of units that can field Starcannons. You are paying a lot for a unit that can murder Primaris Marines and other 2-wound infantry but will struggle to be worth its points against much else. Yes you gain the defensive bonus of the 5++ but at the cost of reducing your firepower against anything but MEQs/TEQs.

Run it aggressively on a flank to shoot, assault and then withdraw in your next turn. Combine with either Alaitoc trait for protection at long range or Ulthwe for a 6+++ and it might last long enough to cause some trouble. Will it be worth its 500+ points? I am skeptical but maybe I should try it before dismissing it completely.

For the price of one wraithknight you can field 3 fire prisms.
It’s not even a contest.

Wyldcarde wrote:
For the price of one wraithknight you can field 3 fire prisms.
It’s not even a contest.

The melee capabilities of the WK should not be dismiss.
However to add to you point, you could get 2 Fire Prims and a melee unit of your choice instead of the WK.

I don’t expect a wraithknight to last longer than a couple of turns. Don’t expect it to cause much damage in close combat in that time.
Would still take 3 fire prisms.

Mine is equipped with suncannon/shield with optional shoulder weapons (will be going starcannon now). I used it to compliment my short ranged wraith weaponry and will still field it as Iyanden. A Bonesinger healing it (or the strategem) to keep it alive longer, also possible combo with Fortune (although I prefer that cast on my wraithblades). I don't like the variable nature of the 2D6 suncannon shots (whereas 4 starcannons yield 8 shots which is above average for the suncannon and only 60pts now). The 2 damage is a bonus as any 2W model will always be taken down now (terminators/primaris) rather than eating 2 shots if the first one happened to be a 1 or 2 rolled.

So basically I'm looking at the following buffs associated with my WK

Non degrading statline until wounds get very low.
Bonesinger and strategem capable of regenerating the wounds.
Slight improvement of both starcannon/suncannon as weapons.
One time use of psytronome to double his kick attacks.

He is a big chuck of points though at 570, and now I have to figure out how to get 3 ranger units in list just to get the CPs I need (dropping a wave serpent helps by using one wraithguard unit in webway)

In an army of wave serpents, wraithlords and wraithguard...enemy heavy weapons will have to choose. I'm just not sure if I have the offensive firepower to help offset this (in my local game group anyway). That 570pts could be better spent on a hemlock and other units, but I will play him occasionally.

 Galef wrote:
Something to possibly ponder: the Suncannon is a flat D:2 instead of D: D3. With Starcannons being halved in cost, the Suncannon/Starcannon WK looks interesting, if still probably worse than the melee or wraithcannon WK.

It also makes you realize that it's the Avenger Gatling Cannon of the Knights, but it's not always heavy 12.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Something to possibly ponder: the Suncannon is a flat D:2 instead of D: D3. With Starcannons being halved in cost, the Suncannon/Starcannon WK looks interesting, if still probably worse than the melee or wraithcannon WK.

It also makes you realize that it's the Avenger Gatling Cannon of the Knights, but it's not always heavy 12.

<wish I didn't pack all my books away for moving> Is the Avenger also -3AP? Also what is relative cost of each weapon?

 Galef wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
For the price of one wraithknight you can field 3 fire prisms.
It’s not even a contest.

The melee capabilities of the WK should not be dismiss.
However to add to you point, you could get 2 Fire Prims and a melee unit of your choice instead of the WK.

This right here is the reason the WK is still not appealing. You can get Reapers/Prisms for range firepower in multiples, and then still have points left over for a close combat unit of choice (wratihblades with axes/shields).

The only WK that is interesting to me right now is the Skathach WK. It can deepstrike. I think if the Codex WK had deepstrike it might make it worth taking off the shelf once in a while.

The SWK with Saim-Hann attribute you can deep-strike and have ~43% charge on arrival. Or if you roll high on once dice (5 or 6) and low on the other just use 1CP to reroll the second dice to improve your odds. This is still a stretch and you lose access to the Str 16 cannons.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Something to possibly ponder: the Suncannon is a flat D:2 instead of D: D3. With Starcannons being halved in cost, the Suncannon/Starcannon WK looks interesting, if still probably worse than the melee or wraithcannon WK.

It also makes you realize that it's the Avenger Gatling Cannon of the Knights, but it's not always heavy 12.

<wish I didn't pack all my books away for moving> Is the Avenger also -3AP? Also what is relative cost of each weapon?

Heavy 12 S6 ap-2 2D, 95pts.