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I haven't read some of the recent fluff, what was the reason for the Haemoculus Covens and Vect turning their back on Ynnead et al? Also, did the Covens exert any political influence on Vect, probably the only organisation that could?

Hum, I think from the Fracture of Biel Tan fluff it was that the Ynnari are eating into the Covens' monopoly on resurrection and soul-saving services to the Dark Eldar.

Fits sort of, but I'd expect the Covens to be more devious than that.

To be honest, the reason I've given it (and the reason why I think all of the other craftworlds are deeply suspicious of the Ynnari) is that the Ynnari are a radical and frankly insane fanatical religious cult.

Ynnari: "Hey guys, we've birthed this God of Death from our soul energy that's promised to save us. Isn't that a great idea?"

Sane eldar: "Wait what?! We don't exactly have the greatest track record with self-created warp entities you know. Khaine tried to genocide us twice while the rest of them basically stood by and did nothing, and then we birthed Slaanesh who in all likelihood has succeeded in genociding us. Now we've birthed a literal God of the Dead and you think this is a good idea?"

Ynnari: "Well, third time's a charm!"

Sane eldar: "We're f*cked. You realise that don't you?"

*Ynnari grins inanely in the way religious nutters do when they're so dead certain that when the rapture/jesus/aliens come they will be saved and you won't.

Weren't the Covens freaked out the Yncarne killed a Haemonculus and all his flesh samples etc died as well?

pm713 wrote:
Weren't the Covens freaked out the Yncarne killed a Haemonculus and all his flesh samples etc died as well?

Neat!

That'd freak me the hell out as a Haemonculus too...

Vect and the Haemonculi are some as old as the fall or older. Think about that. They pre-date the birth of two Gods and saw the death of their old pantheon. They will hold no special respect for those claiming Godhood, they need no gods, they worship no better.

That's why they won't throw their lot in with the Ynnari, because the Ynnari are at their heart a religious cult. To worship a god is to give away the agency over your own fate, something the immensely arrogent lords of the Dark City would never do.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Vect and the Haemonculi are some as old as the fall or older. Think about that. They pre-date the birth of two Gods and saw the death of their old pantheon. They will hold no special respect for those claiming Godhood, they need no gods, they worship no better.

That's why they won't throw their lot in with the Ynnari, because the Ynnari are at their heart a religious cult. To worship a god is to give away the agency over your own fate, something the immensely arrogent lords of the Dark City would never do.

In fairness some will because whether or not a God holds spiritual power over you in 40k they hold a lot of physical power. Some are going to follow it and some are going to try and use it.

Sure, some will.

But not Vect. Vect's best character trait imho is the insistence that people make their own way in the world, claw their way to the top. That's why he threw down the noble houses, that's why the kabalite system is as it is. He might manipulate them, but he'd never join them and he'd never bow to a god.

It's really well written in Path of the Archon, of the interactions between Vect and a Harlequin. The Harlequin speaks of myths and gods and Vect sneers at him, picking him apart. The Harlequin soon decides Vect is one of the most dangerous people in the universe as he tries ever so hard to keep on his good side.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Sure, some will.

But not Vect. Vect's best character trait imho is the insistence that people make their own way in the world, claw their way to the top. That's why he threw down the noble houses, that's why the kabalite system is as it is. He might manipulate them, but he'd never join them and he'd never bow to a god.

It's really well written in Path of the Archon, of the interactions between Vect and a Harlequin. The Harlequin speaks of myths and gods and Vect sneers at him, picking him apart. The Harlequin soon decides Vect is one of the most dangerous people in the universe as he tries ever so hard to keep on his good side.

That's Vect. If Vect does anything with you you are one of 3 things: His servant, being thrown under the bus or utterly insignificant.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Sure, some will.

But not Vect. Vect's best character trait imho is the insistence that people make their own way in the world, claw their way to the top. That's why he threw down the noble houses, that's why the kabalite system is as it is. He might manipulate them, but he'd never join them and he'd never bow to a god.

It's really well written in Path of the Archon, of the interactions between Vect and a Harlequin. The Harlequin speaks of myths and gods and Vect sneers at him, picking him apart. The Harlequin soon decides Vect is one of the most dangerous people in the universe as he tries ever so hard to keep on his good side.

This.

Not Vect. Not anyone who thinks like Vect (which, given the social structure of Dark Eldar society will probably be the majority).

Dark Eldar stand by their might and their might alone. Reliance on an outside entity is nought but a sign of individual weakness, worthy of little but scorn.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Sure, some will.

But not Vect. Vect's best character trait imho is the insistence that people make their own way in the world, claw their way to the top. That's why he threw down the noble houses, that's why the kabalite system is as it is. He might manipulate them, but he'd never join them and he'd never bow to a god.

It's really well written in Path of the Archon, of the interactions between Vect and a Harlequin. The Harlequin speaks of myths and gods and Vect sneers at him, picking him apart. The Harlequin soon decides Vect is one of the most dangerous people in the universe as he tries ever so hard to keep on his good side.

This.

Not Vect. Not anyone who thinks like Vect (which, given the social structure of Dark Eldar society will probably be the majority).

Dark Eldar stand by their might and their might alone. Reliance on an outside entity is nought but a sign of individual weakness, worthy of little but scorn.

Vect is also the Supreme Overlord of Commoragh, there are going to be plenty of Archons who don't like that and don't have the power to do anything about it. I can easily imagine that quite a few of them are using the Ynnari as a way to escape Vect's control and don't actually care about Ynnead.


As to the Covens, whilst initially highly sceptical of Ynnead, beleiving themselves to have full control of all aspects of life and death, they were thoroughly impressed with Ynneads power after their failed attack on the Reborn Warhost within the Eye of Terror, especially since an Haemonculus was completely destroyed down to every last vestige of it's soul and tissue samples stored for resurection. Now they want to capture the Yncarne and disect it and it's soul to take that power for themselves.

The canonical Kabal of the Last Hatred, even before the Ynnari's appearance, were focused on killing off the remaining Eldar and enslaving what is born from the ashes of the Eldar race's extinction (i.e. Ynnead).

Similarly, the Covens want power over life and death and their interest in Ynnead stems more from a desire to gain power and to safeguard themselves danger, such as the apparent ease with which the Yncarne gave permanent death to a Haemonculus.

Lelith Hesperax apparently has joined the Ynnari, though it is hinted this is more from a desire for immortality without having to constantly rely on consuming souls.

Vect is basically hostile to anything that involves him giving up his autonomy to any other entity. The traditional view of Ynnead (before the rise of the Ynnari) was that all the Eldar had to die before Ynnead would be empowered enough to rise and defeat Slaanesh. Vect views this as a fool's hope, and intends on never dying instead of dying and hoping that Ynnead wins.

Very good points all

If anything, this is a pretty damn good demonstration of how divided the eldar cultures must be. Each individual will have these thoughts running through their head, and come to different conclusions about what makes the most sense just as we have.

Also, props to Vect for maintaining the arrogant hard-case party line of the Dark Eldar.

"Slaanesh will consume your soul when you die."
"B*tch please I'm going to live forever."

Wasn’t there also the small matter of Yvraine & co trashing Comorragh on their way out and essentially making Vect look like he was powerless to stop them doing so?

Oddly enough, mafia godfathers tend to be a bit irrational when it comes to their reputation...

(Aaaand now all I can hear is Vect hissing “I’ll get you next time, Yvraine! Next time!” like Dr Claw in Inspector Gadget. Thanks, brain. )

Pilum wrote:
Wasn’t there also the small matter of Yvraine & co trashing Comorragh on their way out and essentially making Vect look like he was powerless to stop them doing so?

Oddly enough, mafia godfathers tend to be a bit irrational when it comes to their reputation...

(Aaaand now all I can hear is Vect hissing “I’ll get you next time, Yvraine! Next time!” like Dr Claw in Inspector Gadget. Thanks, brain. )

In Fracture of Biel-tan, on p. 79, Vect claimed he had already captured Yvraine. He was lying but no one dared to call him out for it in public, though Lady Malys and other rivals were apparently doing their best to undermine his authority.

If you say so, Iracundus, I’ve lent my copy to a friend.

(Note to self: get book back)

Not that it matters atm as I’m away from my stuff, but still.

I don't think Lelith has joined the Ynnari, unless there's been some new fluff over the last 6 months or so that I've missed. She sent some of her Bloodbrides from the Cult of Strife to join the Reborn Warhost ostensibly to show her goodwill but really as a way to hedge her bets. The obvious implication is that she's still in Commoragh which means she's almost certainly hanging around with Vect still, playing both sides.

This is what I like about the Ynnari, their very existence is puting some real pressure on all aspects of the Eldar.

Lelith join up with the Ynnari right at the end of fracture. I distinctly remember it because they remark how the triad of powerful eldar females (Lynanna, Yvraine and Lelith) are becoming synonymous with Lelith, Isha and the Morai-Heg.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Lelith join up with the Ynnari right at the end of fracture. I distinctly remember it because they remark how the triad of powerful eldar females (Lynanna, Yvraine and Lelith) are becoming synonymous with Lelith, Isha and the Morai-Heg.

Except she didn't.

"..in hearing of Yvrains intended destination from her Harlequin contacts, she [Lelith] had sent a force of skilled Arena fighters..." "If these Wyches reported back that the Ynnari truly were able to allay the soul-curse that afflicted the Dark Eldar, then Lelith herself would seek them out and fight for Ynneads cause."

From literally the last page of fluff in Fracture. Goes on to talk about how Yvrain doesn't trust Lelith and suspects she's sent her fighters for purely selfish reason, but needs them anyway. I haven't heard of any new fluff that says Leltih has left Commoragh and joined the Reborn Warhost yet, so I thnk it's a safe bet she's still hedging her bets by supporting Yvrain and Vect.

 Imateria wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Lelith join up with the Ynnari right at the end of fracture. I distinctly remember it because they remark how the triad of powerful eldar females (Lynanna, Yvraine and Lelith) are becoming synonymous with Lelith, Isha and the Morai-Heg.

Except she didn't.

"..in hearing of Yvrains intended destination from her Harlequin contacts, she [Lelith] had sent a force of skilled Arena fighters..." "If these Wyches reported back that the Ynnari truly were able to allay the soul-curse that afflicted the Dark Eldar, then Lelith herself would seek them out and fight for Ynneads cause."

From literally the last page of fluff in Fracture. Goes on to talk about how Yvrain doesn't trust Lelith and suspects she's sent her fighters for purely selfish reason, but needs them anyway. I haven't heard of any new fluff that says Leltih has left Commoragh and joined the Reborn Warhost yet, so I thnk it's a safe bet she's still hedging her bets by supporting Yvrain and Vect.

Found some newer fluff about Lelith:

Membersof every Aeldari faction have joined the Ynnari, but more stand opposed. Amongst the Drukhari,the Haemonculus Covens refuse their vision,desiring the souls of the dead for themselves. The gladiatorial champion Lelith Hesperax has joined the Reborn, along with many of the Wych Cults, while the Kabalites’ reactions to Ynnead’s disciples are varied. Harlequins,naturally,fight on both sides.

Warhammer 8th edition rulebook, p. 121