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Just a thought I've had recently.

I tend to lean towards the 'everyone is distrustful and bordering on conflict with everyone else' interpretation of 40k inter and intra-faction relations, especially when it comes to eldar who are usually depicted as a little too Brighthammer for my liking (usually work together for the common cause of protecting eldar lives, meaning that there's few narrative hooks for conflict of any sort between craftworlds which is boring...).

So, I was thinking about the whole 'craftworlds are led by Farseers who manipulate future events to protect their people' thing, and thought 'what if the destinies of two craftworlds are opposed?' What if by saving eldar from Ulthwe, you have to sacrifice eldar from Saim Hann? What if this isn't just a rare occurrence, but a continual state of balancing the fate of one craftworld off against its fellows?

If this is true, then it's no wonder we have only seen one real alliance between craftworlds in the 10,000 years since the Fall. It also opens up some really nice options for realpolitik and conflict between craftworlds, where neither want to spill eldar blood but both are working to make sure that their people aren't the ones who end up taking the bullet.

What do people think? Neat narrative hook? Terrible idea and I like my eldar to all be friends?

I think it's interesting, especially because it would lead to many plots, and probably plots within plots.

Direct conflict is probably off the table. Even taking part indirectly in an attack against another craftworld seems difficult. But "forgetting" to tell your "friends" that a danger is headed their way, or showing up "a bit too late" to help them (once they've suffered pretty big losses) seems possible. I guess some Eldars would also want to stay completely neutral when another craftworld is under attack, because "they brought it upon themselves", or something like that.
In any case, any harm done to another craftworld would probably be done in a very crafty way.

I could also see farseers lie to their own craftworld about their predictions. A bit like "some other eldars need to die for us to survive, but my fellow craftworlders wouldn't understand, so I'll just hide parts of the truth", which could lead to internal struggles and general mistrust.

This was explored in the recent book Jain Zar, in which the fate of Ulthwe and some smaller Craftworld had rival prophecies relating to two Ork Warbosses. If one survived, Ulthwe would be attacked, the same situation with the other. So they set about a cold war of pushing fate this way and that to ensure each craftworld got their desired outcome.

Jain Zar ended up intervening, getting into very interesting arguments with both a young (and very ambitious) Eldrad and even the Avatar of Khaine, before ensuring the death of both Warbosses, saving both Craftworlds.

But it went to show that Eldrad at least was willing to put Eldar lives on the line to protect Ulthwe.

Very interesting so there's already existing precedent for conflicts of interest between craftworlds.

What I was thinking is that this might be the default state rather than rare issues that are magically solved by a Phoenix Lord deus ex machina.

Perhaps I've been reading too much about the political relations between the major powers prior to WW1, but that's sort of how I imagine it to be.

Absolutely with you that actual armed conflict would be rare, but probably not as rare as people think. Saim Hann have a bit of a reputation for being belligerent, and have gone to war with Kaelor before.

Perhaps it would more take the form of covertly sabotaging other craftworlds' chains of events they set up if they happen to result in your craftworld being in a worse position, or organising your own chains of events that result in someone else attacking your rival craftworld (or their interests).

Something like Korea where the real struggle was between the US and the USSR, but fought using Korean forces as weapons.

Now...to think of a story to put this into action

I believe in Asurmens novel Ulthwe and another rival Craftworld compete because Ulthwe's success meant the downfall of the other Craftworld. But Ulthwe had more Eldar so it was viewed as the preferable option by Eldrad.

pm713 wrote:
I believe in Asurmens novel Ulthwe and another rival Craftworld compete because Ulthwe's success meant the downfall of the other Craftworld. But Ulthwe had more Eldar so it was viewed as the preferable option by Eldrad.

Not suspicious of all with Eldrad being from Ulthwe

That's where I see the politics sneaking in. Yes everyone wants to preserve the eldar race, and you can debate relative losses until you're blue in the face, but I imagine that the skeins of fate are convoluted enough that nothing as as clear cut as 'this action will result in 10 Ulthwe deaths, and this action will result in 9 Saim Hann deaths'

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I believe in Asurmens novel Ulthwe and another rival Craftworld compete because Ulthwe's success meant the downfall of the other Craftworld. But Ulthwe had more Eldar so it was viewed as the preferable option by Eldrad.

Not suspicious of all with Eldrad being from Ulthwe

That's where I see the politics sneaking in. Yes everyone wants to preserve the eldar race, and you can debate relative losses until you're blue in the face, but I imagine that the skeins of fate are convoluted enough that nothing as as clear cut as 'this action will result in 10 Ulthwe deaths, and this action will result in 9 Saim Hann deaths'

True. Nobody will say "They should attack my Craftworld. Ulthwe is much better able to defend itself than you". Not when someone else can do the dying.

"Not when someone else can do the dying"

Perfectly encapsulates the eldar mindset

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

"Not when someone else can do the dying"

Perfectly encapsulates the eldar mindset

To be fair most other races can replace people a lot easier.

pm713 wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

"Not when someone else can do the dying"

Perfectly encapsulates the eldar mindset

To be fair most other races can replace people a lot easier.

See, it makes logical sense human. We both want to defeat Chaos don't we? The most efficient way to do so is for you guys to fight on the front lines where your superior numbers will make the most difference, while you leave the existential and spiritual battle to us eldar.

Don't we make such a good team mon keigh...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

"Not when someone else can do the dying"

Perfectly encapsulates the eldar mindset

To be fair most other races can replace people a lot easier.

See, it makes logical sense human. We both want to defeat Chaos don't we? The most efficient way to do so is for you guys to fight on the front lines where your superior numbers will make the most difference, while you leave the existential and spiritual battle to us eldar.

Don't we make such a good team mon keigh...

The thing is though...the Eldar are right. They are more psychic and know more of the various hidden secrets and artifacts of the galaxy. They may be self serving but a victory for Chaos would be the worst outcome for both races. It may be a raw deal for humanity but it is better than no deal at all and Chaos winning.

Looking into GW's past stories, we find repeated examples of ignorant humans meddling into things they should not touch, sometimes ignoring direct Eldar warnings to not touch, only for things to go horribly wrong. Then the traditional narrative has humans and Eldar working together to undo the mess that honestly the humans caused. Sometimes the humans even then blame the Eldar even though the Eldar had warned against the actions in the first place.

As has been pointed out, we have a few examples of craftworlds squaring off in the past. In general, however, I think that craftworlders would want to keep conflicts to a minimum. Even if you have a really good reason to be matched up against a fellow craftworld, the existence of more craftworlds is generally a good thing. Every craftworld that can either support its own army or else contribute to your own when called upon is a mostly-friendly faction out there making the galaxy just a little bit nicer for you.

Say Iyanden and Saim-Hann hate one another. Even if they really really don't get along, they'd each probably like to have another craftworld out there culling ork populations, pointing humans in the wrong direction, protecting remnants of the old empire, and being chosen as the target for Slaaneshi space marines (poor Lugganath). Even if most of those conflicts don't directly benefit you, you're better off having enemies of your enemies floating around than just plain enemies.

So with that in mind, here are some concepts for how to have eldar "go to war" without "going to war."

* Mind duels. I've seen battle reports where major conflicts between eldar were mostly just a couple of seer councils sitting down and deciding who would win in a fight, then NOT fighting and acting accordingly. Maybe they engage in some limited conflict against one another or against a third party to untangle fate and make it clearer who would win should they go to war, but the body count ends up much lower than actually duking it out. "Nine out of ten attempts to read the future show victory for my craftworld. Guess you guys have to go hold off the tyranids while we recruit backup for you."

*Positioning. Similar to the above but with the emphasis on real world events. Two craftworlds want an aeldari relic that was lost in a patch of webway only accessible from a certain planet. So the race is on to get to that planet. Thing is, getting to that planet means securing positions X, Y, and Z first. So as soon as one craftworld has wiped out the humans at X, Y, and Z, the other craftworld realizes the relic is out of their reach unless they actively commit to a conflict they don't want to be a part of.

*Personal campaigns. In the Gods of Mars series, we see some eldar acting, at least partly, for the personal desires and needs of one of their number. I'm oversimplifying, but basically a seer called in a bunch of favors to get a couple of aspect shrines and a wraith lord on her side. What I'm getting at is that eldar have the freedom to go out murdering with their friends provided it doesn't draw censure from larger or more powerful bodies of eldar. As a result, you could probably have relatively small-scale conflicts between craftworlders where the two sides engage in actual combat.

Picture, for instance, a saim-hann clan that feels it has been slighted by a Lugganath autarch with close ties to some corsairs. So the autarch calls in favors from his pirate buddies and any exarchs that owe him a favor, and they go have an honor duel against the Saim-Hann clan that has been questioning their parentage.

I think there’s some potential to this idea, but also agree that the Eldar would generally shy away from overt conflict unless the skeins of fate decree.

If we’re after general blocs, then I’d go something like this.

Ulthwe - Biel-Tan.
Ulthwe views the Biel-Tani as needlessly provoking attacks from the lesser races when they have The Great Enemy to worry about. Biel-Tan sees Ulthwe as overly focussed on the mistake of the past, and rather than skulk around the galaxy on ships they should look to recreate their race’s glory anew.

Saim-Hann - Alaitoc
Fairly obvious; Alaitoc is rigid and puritan, viewing any deviation from the Path as reenacting their Doom. Saim-Hann is much looser, perhaps closer to those ‘old ways’. For their part, the Wild Riders view Alaitoc as timid, shrinking, hidebound in their internal fear of what might be.

Iyanden
Oh for Isha’s sake, who gives a ****, we’re dying here!


Obviously this is pure fanon, in fact barely that as I’ve thrown it together just from reading this thread, but it might give a base. There’s probably an axis one could make up, much like the famous Political Compass, perhaps of Path adherence (strong/loose) versus Galactic engagement (lots/none) or similar labels. To extend it as an example, Biel-Tan would probably admire Saim-Hann for their energy and general approach to the galaxy while decrying their lack of focus on recreating what was. Alaitoc, perhaps almost the opposite, though seeing them also as too rigid. Iyanden would be an object of pity and a lesson (“see what happens if you don’t get ready ALL THE TIME?”). But again, nothing ‘set’ for me here, just an interesting thought experiment.

Iracundus wrote:

The thing is though...the Eldar are right. They are more psychic and know more of the various hidden secrets and artifacts of the galaxy. They may be self serving but a victory for Chaos would be the worst outcome for both races. It may be a raw deal for humanity but it is better than no deal at all and Chaos winning.

Bang on and doesn't that just make them all the more insufferable perfect invocation of the 'Screw You Elves' trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewYouElves

Wyldhunt wrote:
As has been pointed out, we have a few examples of craftworlds squaring off in the past. In general, however, I think that craftworlders would want to keep conflicts to a minimum. Even if you have a really good reason to be matched up against a fellow craftworld, the existence of more craftworlds is generally a good thing. Every craftworld that can either support its own army or else contribute to your own when called upon is a mostly-friendly faction out there making the galaxy just a little bit nicer for you.

Say Iyanden and Saim-Hann hate one another. Even if they really really don't get along, they'd each probably like to have another craftworld out there culling ork populations, pointing humans in the wrong direction, protecting remnants of the old empire, and being chosen as the target for Slaaneshi space marines (poor Lugganath). Even if most of those conflicts don't directly benefit you, you're better off having enemies of your enemies floating around than just plain enemies.

So with that in mind, here are some concepts for how to have eldar "go to war" without "going to war."

* Mind duels. I've seen battle reports where major conflicts between eldar were mostly just a couple of seer councils sitting down and deciding who would win in a fight, then NOT fighting and acting accordingly. Maybe they engage in some limited conflict against one another or against a third party to untangle fate and make it clearer who would win should they go to war, but the body count ends up much lower than actually duking it out. "Nine out of ten attempts to read the future show victory for my craftworld. Guess you guys have to go hold off the tyranids while we recruit backup for you."

*Positioning. Similar to the above but with the emphasis on real world events. Two craftworlds want an aeldari relic that was lost in a patch of webway only accessible from a certain planet. So the race is on to get to that planet. Thing is, getting to that planet means securing positions X, Y, and Z first. So as soon as one craftworld has wiped out the humans at X, Y, and Z, the other craftworld realizes the relic is out of their reach unless they actively commit to a conflict they don't want to be a part of.

*Personal campaigns. In the Gods of Mars series, we see some eldar acting, at least partly, for the personal desires and needs of one of their number. I'm oversimplifying, but basically a seer called in a bunch of favors to get a couple of aspect shrines and a wraith lord on her side. What I'm getting at is that eldar have the freedom to go out murdering with their friends provided it doesn't draw censure from larger or more powerful bodies of eldar. As a result, you could probably have relatively small-scale conflicts between craftworlders where the two sides engage in actual combat.

Picture, for instance, a saim-hann clan that feels it has been slighted by a Lugganath autarch with close ties to some corsairs. So the autarch calls in favors from his pirate buddies and any exarchs that owe him a favor, and they go have an honor duel against the Saim-Hann clan that has been questioning their parentage.

You're absolutely right about the whole 'better to have more eldar around than not' thing, which would definitely play into it. However, if you look at real-world politics it's very rarely that simple and even allies who are working closely together towards a common purpose (see the allied powers pre-WW1 as a prime example) are manoeuvring behind the scenes to maximise their nation's benefit above that of their allies.

Yes Britain, France and Russia wanted to beat Germany, Italy and Austro-Hungary...but if the Russians and French have the Germans on their doorstep, it's going to take persuasion to get the British to commit fully, especially if in doing so it would open up Britain to attack. Same with every other power's relationship to other powers, and that's in our modern world where quite frankly everything is sunshine and roses compared to 40k

I'm liking the suggestions for low-scale cold war-like conflict mind duels (or politicking for us), positioning, low-scale skirmishes overlooked and 'forgotten about' by higher command. Honour duels especially seems nice and backwards which is fitting with the whole 40k aesthetic

Pilum wrote:
I think there’s some potential to this idea, but also agree that the Eldar would generally shy away from overt conflict unless the skeins of fate decree.

If we’re after general blocs, then I’d go something like this.

Ulthwe - Biel-Tan.
Ulthwe views the Biel-Tani as needlessly provoking attacks from the lesser races when they have The Great Enemy to worry about. Biel-Tan sees Ulthwe as overly focussed on the mistake of the past, and rather than skulk around the galaxy on ships they should look to recreate their race’s glory anew.

Saim-Hann - Alaitoc
Fairly obvious; Alaitoc is rigid and puritan, viewing any deviation from the Path as reenacting their Doom. Saim-Hann is much looser, perhaps closer to those ‘old ways’. For their part, the Wild Riders view Alaitoc as timid, shrinking, hidebound in their internal fear of what might be.

Iyanden
Oh for Isha’s sake, who gives a ****, we’re dying here!


Obviously this is pure fanon, in fact barely that as I’ve thrown it together just from reading this thread, but it might give a base. There’s probably an axis one could make up, much like the famous Political Compass, perhaps of Path adherence (strong/loose) versus Galactic engagement (lots/none) or similar labels. To extend it as an example, Biel-Tan would probably admire Saim-Hann for their energy and general approach to the galaxy while decrying their lack of focus on recreating what was. Alaitoc, perhaps almost the opposite, though seeing them also as too rigid. Iyanden would be an object of pity and a lesson (“see what happens if you don’t get ready ALL THE TIME?”). But again, nothing ‘set’ for me here, just an interesting thought experiment.

Ooh I like it the conflicts of culture (which is often a flash-point for real-world conflict) you've laid out above seem pretty realistic. Also fits with the background of Iyanden being the head of the only real alliance of craftworlds that's ever existed (prior to its extinction-event). Perhaps their tack is that everyone should stop bickering and just get along for a change, but they're so depleted in manpower and influence that they don't exactly hold the political sway they used to have (they were once the most populous and likely most powerful craftworld).

I'm liking the idea of each craftworld looking pretty disparagingly on the outlook of the other craftworlds (to varying degrees). I've sort of done this with my own homebrew Craftworld which have gone through an Iyanden-style extinction event and come out of the other side as something bordering on Biel-Tan style militarism, but without the desire to recreate their empire. They're basically in a total-war type setting simply for survival, without all the high forward-looking goals of Biel Tan. A craftworld that doesn't take any sh*t, basically.

They think that Iyanden are pathetic (they've gone through the same sort of extinction event as them, but they're striving forwards while the Iyandeni are stuck in mourning...despite the fact that mine are probably just doing grief in a different, more destructive way). They think Saim Hann are backwards barbarians who are wasting time and resources maintaining a primitive culture at the expense of effectiveness. They think Alaitoc are wasting time obsessively policing their populace when they could just be conscripted. They think Ulthwe are messing about hand-wringing about this prophesy and that prophesy rather than just doing something about the whole mess. And finally they admire Biel Tan for their military bent, but think that they're a bit player now they're a fractured and leaderless corsair fleet. Still, they're definitely the most amenable to Biel Tan.

Iracundus wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

"Not when someone else can do the dying"

Perfectly encapsulates the eldar mindset

To be fair most other races can replace people a lot easier.

See, it makes logical sense human. We both want to defeat Chaos don't we? The most efficient way to do so is for you guys to fight on the front lines where your superior numbers will make the most difference, while you leave the existential and spiritual battle to us eldar.

Don't we make such a good team mon keigh...

Looking into GW's past stories, we find repeated examples of ignorant humans meddling into things they should not touch, sometimes ignoring direct Eldar warnings to not touch, only for things to go horribly wrong. Then the traditional narrative has humans and Eldar working together to undo the mess that honestly the humans caused. Sometimes the humans even then blame the Eldar even though the Eldar had warned against the actions in the first place.

A pretty good example of that is one of the Ragnar novels mentions the Wolves and Guard fighting off Eldar from a planet and taking one of their tools as a prize. Then it turned out they were reinforcing a prison for a Great Unclean One who later caused a planet wide plague.

To be fair, the other cliché there is:
Eldar: “humans, do not do this thing.”
Humans: “screw you, elves”
Eldar: “we’re not kidding, you must stop.”
Humans: “Why?”
Eldar: “because.”
Humans: “....”
Eldar: “seriously. We mean it.”
Humans: “I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave some moments ago.”
Eldar: “war it is then”
**** SUDDENLY DAEMONS ****
Eldar: “we told you not to fight a war over the ruined altar that’s buried 200m below the surface!! Arrogant mon-keigh!”
Humans: “WTF?”

Pilum wrote:
To be fair, the other cliché there is:
Eldar: “humans, do not do this thing.”
Humans: “screw you, elves”
Eldar: “we’re not kidding, you must stop.”
Humans: “Why?”
Eldar: “because.”
Humans: “....”
Eldar: “seriously. We mean it.”
Humans: “I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave some moments ago.”
Eldar: “war it is then”
**** SUDDENLY DAEMONS ****
Eldar: “we told you not to kill 300 of our people over the ruined altar that’s buried 200m below the surface!! Arrogant mon-keigh!”
Humans: “WTF?”

Haha perfect

If anyone's looking for an explanation for why the eldar say 'because' rather than actually explaining things like a sane person would do, I reckon it's something to do with relative intelligence levels. It's often very difficult for people who are fantastically intelligent to explain things to people who aren't as familiar with what they're on about. It's not a 'this person is too stupid to understand', it's more a case of 'this intelligent person seems to be completely incapable of explaining what they're saying in a way people who aren't completely familiar with the subject at hand'.

So from the eldar's point of view, the conversation above would go:

Eldar: “humans, do not do this thing.”
Humans: “screw you, elves”
Eldar: “we’re not kidding, you must stop.”
Humans: “Why?”
Eldar: “because.” (inner monologue: I mean come on human, it's blindingly obvious)
Humans: “....”
Eldar: “seriously. We mean it.”
Humans: “I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave some moments ago.”
Eldar: “war it is then” (ffs, honestly these humans are so mind-numbingly thick that violence must be the only way to get through to them)
**** SUDDENLY DAEMONS ****
Eldar: “we told you not to kill 300 of our people over the ruined altar that’s buried 200m below the surface!! Arrogant mon-keigh!”
Humans: “WTF?”

“Because” (by the red moon, can’t they FEEL that power in the air? It’s making me so nauseous I can barely stand!”)

“Seriously. We mean it.” (FOUR GECKOS HAVE LITERALLY JUST HOPPED PAST WITH A STEP-STEP-JUMP!!! Are you such PHILISTINES that you can’t even recognise the most basic element of the Dirge of Lullani??!!?? )

Granted, we exaggerate here for humour, but I do feel that the eldar’s perception of their mythic cycles recurring (as mentioned in a Harlequin thread somewhere here) coupled with their utter inability to even conceive of not having psychic senses does affect their attitudes and behaviour. Plus of course they know best because Eldar.

And to tie this back on topic, I think this arrogance is so deep as to easily explain any antipathy between the Craftworlds.
Their way is obviously better than anyone else’s... I mean ok, they’re surviving, if you can even call it that, but WE’RE objectively right.

Except perhaps Iyanden of course. Survival tends to concentrate the mind.

Absolutely right. If there's any all-pervading trait that the eldar have it's arrogance (or self-assuredness, if I want to be kind). It's pretty likely that extends to most other eldar too...

I like the idea that the craftworlders have issues with conceiving full non-psychic communication. Like when they say 'because' above they're assuming you can read all the dire portents and horrendous eventualities running through their mind.

When the humans understandably miss all of that, the eldar assume they're just so thick that they don't get it...

Also worth considering that even non-psychic Eldar communication relies a lot on body language and gestures that the vast majority of humans will have no idea how to read.

It's also worth pointing out that imperials tend to be very bad at actually sitting down to hear out a whole explanation.

ELDAR: Don't do the thing.
HUMAN: Why not?
ELDAR: Well, I looked into the future and...
HUMAN: WITCH! BURN IT!
ELDAR: ... I saw that if you kill a bunch of xenos on that hill over there, bad things will happen...
HUMAN Not killing xenos? HERESY! PURGE THEM!
ELDAR: ... Bad things being that chaos daemons will come pouring out of a temple and drown the planet in blood...
HUMAN: They have knowledge of daemons! CHAOS! DESTROY THEM UTTERLY! FOR THE EMPEROR! WARGHARBLEARBLE!
OTHER HUMAN: Actually, that makes sense. And we have no huge imperative to fight one another as long as you don't...
INQUISITOR: Listening to xenos? HERESY! YOU MUST ALL BE DESTROYED! PREFERABLY ATOP THAT HILL OVER THERE. IF THE XENOS SAY NOT TO DO IT, WE MUST SURELY DO THE OPPOSITE!
ELDAR: You know what? Let's just shoot at each other and hope that you have the good sense to die before you make things worse.

Plus, human souls seem weirdly... corruption prone. Like, there's a story where some human gangers get their hands on some shuriken weapons. Apparently this was such a dire transgression against proper human behavior (or something) that it caused a bunch of daemons to be summoned to their world. Almost. So apparently exposing a human mind to information his boss doesn't approve of him carries a non-zero risk of chaos suddenly becoming involved in whatever you're doing. So do you take the time to be nice and hope you don't get caught up in a chaos infestation, or do you just take the quicker, cleaner, shuriken-shaped approach?

Also, humans are just a pain for eldar to talk to. In Path of the Outcast, it goes into detail about human lighting is painfully artificial compared to craftworld and natural lighting, how their deoderants and perfumes don't so much cover up body odor as lace it with abrasive chemicals, and how their every movement and word seems clumsy and sluggish. So basically, every conversation with a human is like a conversation with a smelly drunk guy while surrounded by neon signs.

Some appropriate hints from the codex on this topic:
Saim-Hann “... often join the warhosts of Biel-Tan... but (they) find the extreme xenophobia of the Swordwind and it’s willingness to slaughter non-combatants distasteful... (with Ulthwe) they quickly grow wary of manipulations and baulk at attacking unprovoked foes, regardless of what future outcomes the seers (of Ulthwe) claim.”

I don’t recall having seen this in prior codexes. There are also the usual references, that Ulthwe are “damned” and “cursed”, Saim-Hann are barbarous, Alaitoc are fanatics, Altansar are tainted and Lugganath are a bunch of pirates.

From the history section, and I admit some are ‘old’ but I’m including them for completeness:
Biel-Tan and Iyanden don’t fully trust each other over Iyanden thinking that fighting Chaos was a tad more important than picking fights with the rest of creation.

The Council of Coalition attempts to unite the Craftworlds, fails and causes a brief civil war. Fingers are pointed at the Drukhari, daemonic meddling or (in Ulthwe’s opinion) because everyon was just too up themselves to get along.

A daemonic incursion of Iyanden fails because virtually the whole race - Drukhari, Ynnari, ‘Quins and Craftworlders - send contingents to defend it. Clearly, Aeldari Above All (reiterated by the last entry where Yvraine tries to unite the race but, in a repeat of the Coalition, is falling apart from arguing when suddenly Chaos. But despite giving the baddies a well-deserved spanking, they all drift away again because, well, Eldar.

Also, to touch on the ‘communications issue’ we drifted into, Eldrad slaughters Imperial explorers who he has foreseen awakening a Necron tomb world (and I would say it implies he does so before they’ve even started). Also, just to show that it’s not just Biel-Tan or Ulthwe, Saim-Hann tell human colonists on Gnosis Prime to go away (they’ve only been there for 1000 years, after all) before giving them a thorough kicking and selling the place to the Drukhari. To be fair, over the page the Wild Riders then suddenly drop out of the skies over an Imperial world beset by Daemons, kick the living bejesus out of them and then bug out before the slack-jawed humans can even say “what?”

 Robin5t wrote:
Also worth considering that even non-psychic Eldar communication relies a lot on body language and gestures that the vast majority of humans will have no idea how to read.

Wyldhunt wrote:


Also, humans are just a pain for eldar to talk to. In Path of the Outcast, it goes into detail about human lighting is painfully artificial compared to craftworld and natural lighting, how their deoderants and perfumes don't so much cover up body odor as lace it with abrasive chemicals, and how their every movement and word seems clumsy and sluggish. So basically, every conversation with a human is like a conversation with a smelly drunk guy while surrounded by neon signs.

Adding all of this together it's no wonder that the two species have difficulty communicating. I like it! It's like realpolitik for 40k first-encounters

Wyldhunt wrote:
It's also worth pointing out that imperials tend to be very bad at actually sitting down to hear out a whole explanation.

ELDAR: Don't do the thing.
HUMAN: Why not?
ELDAR: Well, I looked into the future and...
HUMAN: WITCH! BURN IT!
ELDAR: ... I saw that if you kill a bunch of xenos on that hill over there, bad things will happen...
HUMAN Not killing xenos? HERESY! PURGE THEM!
ELDAR: ... Bad things being that chaos daemons will come pouring out of a temple and drown the planet in blood...
HUMAN: They have knowledge of daemons! CHAOS! DESTROY THEM UTTERLY! FOR THE EMPEROR! WARGHARBLEARBLE!
OTHER HUMAN: Actually, that makes sense. And we have no huge imperative to fight one another as long as you don't...
INQUISITOR: Listening to xenos? HERESY! YOU MUST ALL BE DESTROYED! PREFERABLY ATOP THAT HILL OVER THERE. IF THE XENOS SAY NOT TO DO IT, WE MUST SURELY DO THE OPPOSITE!
ELDAR: You know what? Let's just shoot at each other and hope that you have the good sense to die before you make things worse.

To be fair to humanity there, the vast majority of the time they do encounter someone who can see the future they're a witch who unless burnt is highly likely to explode into a portal to the netherworld and start spewing out daemons, and the vast majority of the time the come across alien species (including the eldar) it does tend to end up with humans getting killed/.eated/harvested/sacrificed unless the humans shoot the aliens first.

It's something I've always thought about the 40k universe. Rampant xenophobia and fanatical witch-hunting isn't a sign of idiocy and backwards behaviour. It's a learnt response to just how awful the galaxy and everything in it is. In any given situation, purging the alien/heretic is the safest potential action in the vast majority of circumstances

Pilum wrote:
Some appropriate hints from the codex on this topic:
Saim-Hann “... often join the warhosts of Biel-Tan... but (they) find the extreme xenophobia of the Swordwind and it’s willingness to slaughter non-combatants distasteful... (with Ulthwe) they quickly grow wary of manipulations and baulk at attacking unprovoked foes, regardless of what future outcomes the seers (of Ulthwe) claim.”

I don’t recall having seen this in prior codexes. There are also the usual references, that Ulthwe are “damned” and “cursed”, Saim-Hann are barbarous, Alaitoc are fanatics, Altansar are tainted and Lugganath are a bunch of pirates.

From the history section, and I admit some are ‘old’ but I’m including them for completeness:
Biel-Tan and Iyanden don’t fully trust each other over Iyanden thinking that fighting Chaos was a tad more important than picking fights with the rest of creation.

The Council of Coalition attempts to unite the Craftworlds, fails and causes a brief civil war. Fingers are pointed at the Drukhari, daemonic meddling or (in Ulthwe’s opinion) because everyon was just too up themselves to get along.

A daemonic incursion of Iyanden fails because virtually the whole race - Drukhari, Ynnari, ‘Quins and Craftworlders - send contingents to defend it. Clearly, Aeldari Above All (reiterated by the last entry where Yvraine tries to unite the race but, in a repeat of the Coalition, is falling apart from arguing when suddenly Chaos. But despite giving the baddies a well-deserved spanking, they all drift away again because, well, Eldar.

Also, to touch on the ‘communications issue’ we drifted into, Eldrad slaughters Imperial explorers who he has foreseen awakening a Necron tomb world (and I would say it implies he does so before they’ve even started). Also, just to show that it’s not just Biel-Tan or Ulthwe, Saim-Hann tell human colonists on Gnosis Prime to go away (they’ve only been there for 1000 years, after all) before giving them a thorough kicking and selling the place to the Drukhari. To be fair, over the page the Wild Riders then suddenly drop out of the skies over an Imperial world beset by Daemons, kick the living bejesus out of them and then bug out before the slack-jawed humans can even say “what?”

Neat definite vindication there about there being ideological tensions between Craftworlds. Small logical leap from there to a full-blown Cold War

Also, I find it interesting that different Craftworlds have different opinions about whether fighting Chaos is more important or not as I've found that same thing here most people seem to think that the eldar should buddy up with the Imperium to defeat their mutual enemies Chaos...handily glossing over the fact that the Imperium has destroyed precisely as many Craftworlds since the Fall as Chaos has.

Yes defeating Slaanesh is the only way to secure the long-term survival of the eldar. Hell no are the Imperium their allies in this. They're pawns to be thrown in the faces of daemons and nothing more. their penance for the number of eldar they've killed...


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Pilum wrote:
Some appropriate hints from the codex on this topic:
Saim-Hann “... often join the warhosts of Biel-Tan... but (they) find the extreme xenophobia of the Swordwind and it’s willingness to slaughter non-combatants distasteful... (with Ulthwe) they quickly grow wary of manipulations and baulk at attacking unprovoked foes, regardless of what future outcomes the seers (of Ulthwe) claim.”

I do think there's a missed opportunity with the Saim Hann fluff here. It seems to fall into the all-too-common trope that barbaric and tribal cultures are somehow more honourable or pure than modern ones, which if you look at the behaviours of the vast, vast majority of tribal cultures in the history of the earth could not be further from the case. I'm not quite sure where the trope came from*, but we've definitely somewhat forgotten what 'barbarian' actually means.

Raiding, pillaging, indiscriminate slaughtering of innocents, warmongering, cannibalism, religious sacrifice. These are traits associated with 'barbarism'**, and are traits that one has the opportunity to apply to Saim Hann, turning our expectations of what the 'noble eldar' are like completely on its head

It;s sort of an idea I had brewing for the whole Dark Age of Sigmar/AoS28 movement for cannibalistic Wood Elves. It's only fluff at the moment, but it goes like this:

Civilised folk seem to forget the Asrai are wild. Or, at least, they fail to grasp what wild truly means. Simply living as a forest hermit, cut off from the bustling hubbub of towns and cities, does not qualify. Domestication runs deep, even among men and elves. Nature, red in tooth and claw. That is the soul of the Asrai. We are the wolves to Sigmar's lapdogs, the ancient forest to his fields, the wilderness reclaiming his ruined fortresses. We are the primordial hunter that stalks through the shadows, and we will feast upon our enemies.

The Gold God's tame men call us by many names. Savage, cannibal, Khornate, they mutter. The Red God's tame men curse us, anger echoing through the boughs. Us wild elves pay them no heed. Meat is meat. They all taste the same.

*Actually, we do sort of know where this comes from. It's got its roots in the 'noble savage' notion of the Victorian era, and has recently found popularity in fantasy universes following Blizzard's re-casting of Orks in the early stages of the Warcraft franchise (starting the whole trend of Orks being a 'barbaric noble warrior culture' rather than actual barbarians).
**Not that they're necessarily absent from 'civilised' cultures, but they're certainly more prevalent in barbaric ones

I ... see where you're coming from there, Ynnead, and I can't deny that there's perhaps an element of that, but I'd argue slightly differently. The snippet doesn't really give the general impression I got from reading the book (my fault, of course), which is that Saim-Hann explicitly thinks the 'lesser races' are beneath their notice (with the exceptions of Orks and, to an infinitely greater degree, Necrons), and that, much like their ritual duels to settle arguments, as far as they're concerned the job is done once the resolution is obvious. When Saim-Hann 'liberated' Gnosis Prime, as mentioned, they did at least say "GTFO or die" first, and having made their point they bugged out and let their Dark Eldar allies have their fun. Why waste time and lives on a foe ... scratch that, a mere bunch of primitives, you've proved to be better than? Remember, the Serpent strikes hard and fast, and then withdraws to avoid retribution...

Don't forget that other bit about Iyanden falling out with Biel-Tan for basically the same reason. To be blunt, it's the difference between forcing terrified civilians to evacuate a city, or watching them flee and then strafeing the refugee columns. To go a bit 'real world' here, if Saim-Hann are merely extremely bigoted, Biel-Tan are full-on Nazi.

Or less 'politically' ... it is said that the Mongols, when they came to a city, gave that place a number of days to surrender, shown by flying a white (? I think) flag above their commander's tent. After that time had passed, a black flag was flown; the city would be taken, the buildings levelled and all souls within put to the sword, regardless of age, sex, rank or physical condition.

Biel-Tan don't even bother putting the tent up.

The tragedy of the 40K Imperium is not that peaceful co-existence with aliens (at least some aliens) is inherently impossible but that humanity has screwed up its own chances at peace because of the trauma it suffered at the hands of some aliens in the past. In 40K, humans are the ones with a reputation for zealous fanaticism, being untrustworthy (since things said to aliens are counted as having no weight), and conducting unwarranted genocide in the name of manifest destiny. Yes, some aliens are nasty, but there are many minor alien species out there and some of these are just minding their own business. See the Interex. If they hear about this nasty Imperium, with its long history of "shoot first", are they likely to greet humans with open arms? This creates a vicious cycle where humans meet hostile aliens, when they might have turned hostile due to humanity's own reputation preceding it.

This is the same in respect to how the Eldar view humanity. The 2nd edition Eldar Codex states that the "brutality and ignorance of mankind appalls the Eldar". There have been so many examples of the humans screwing things up or refusing to listen when the Eldar do try to trust them with the truth. The Eldar have been burned enough times that no wonder they believe humans cannot handle the truth and have to be manipulated. This in turn creates another vicious cycle where the manipulation breeds further mistrust and xenophobia on the part of humans.

The grimdarkness is in the fact that there is a chance for light but humanity screws it up, not that there was never any chance in the first place. Similarly, the what could be more ironic than the Imperium persecuting the Star Child followers under the mistaken belief they are a Tzeentchian plot? Many readers seem to have simply taken at face value that old blurb about supposedly an Inquisitor "discovering" similarities between a Star Child cult led by Sensei to a Tzeentch cult purged elsewhere as evidence the Star Child cult was just a front. But would Tzeentch really be that transparent? Why not set up a Tzeentch cult, with superficial similarities, and let it be purged so that the Imperium hunts down the children of its own Emperor, hunting and trying to purge their own hope of salvation. That strikes me as more Tzeentchian and darker than if there had never been hope for salvation in the first place.

To be fair humanity overall can't really be blamed. Most interactions with Xenos were either mutually hostile, neutral or alliances. There didn't seem to be much of Humanity actively seeking war. Then came the Big E and he made things as bad as they are.