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Hey guys,

So I've been mucking around with similar lists to this and have had some decent success (though not always wins) with them. So here it is:

Patrol Detachment [ Black Templars ] [ 777 Points ]
High Marshal Helbrecht - 170 Points

Emperor's Champion - 75 Points

Crusader Squad - 109 Points
1x Plasma Pistol + Power Fist
1x Power Fists + Bolt Pistol
1x Plasma Gun
Remainder are equipped w/ Bolt Pistol + Chainsword

Crusader Squad - 109 Points
1x Plasma Pistol + Power Fist
1x Power Fists + Bolt Pistol
1x Plasma Gun
Remainder are equipped w/ Bolt Pistol + Chainsword

Land Raider Crusader - 314 Points
Multi-Multa
Twin-Linked Assault Cannon
Two Hurricane Bolter Sponsons


Spearhead Detachment [ Crimson Fists ] [ 1,223 Points ]
Primaris Librarian - 93 Points

Intercessor Squad [ 5x Marines ] - 114 Points
5x Stalker Bolt Rifles
Power Sword

Intercessor Squad [ 5x Marines ] - 114 Points
5x Stalker Bolt Rifles
Power Sword

Devastator Squad - 165 Points
4x Lascannons

Devastator Squad - 165 Points
4x Missile Launchers

Vindicator - 143 Points
Demolisher Cannon
Hunter-Killer Missile
Storm Bolter

Vindicator - 143 Points
Demolisher Cannon
Hunter-Killer Missile
Storm Bolter

Vindicator - 143 Points
Demolisher Cannon
Hunter-Killer Missile
Storm Bolter

Vindicator - 143 Points
Demolisher Cannon
Hunter-Killer Missile
Storm Bolter

/ End List

I have used the Primaris Librarian as my Warlord on more than one occasion (with different slightly lists) and given him the Storm of Fire Warlord Trait (the TL;DR is and a To Wound of 6+, units close enough to him gain -1 to their AP). This has worked rather nicely with the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics that the Crimson Fists use. Since in this list he will be surrounded by both infantry and vehicles, it will be effectively impossible to target him without weapons like Sniper Rifles which can be played around since he is only one model.

I've put four Vindicators on the list so that even if they decide to focus on the Vindicators, they will more than likely have to sink a large amount of fire power into them in order to even destroy one let alone the two they'd need to prevent me from using the Linebreaker Bombardment. It also means that it's in their best interests to spread out their army, making it harder for them to focus fire on the Vindicators and easier for me to focus on clearing objectives. On the off chance that they do manage to not only get Turn 1 and destroy two Vindicators, most of their firepower will undoubtedly have been spent on this, meaning I'll still have a lot of fire power to lay down on them. And if they have their units clumped up close enough to my Vindicators for whatever reason, then - Linebreaker or no Linebreaker - I can still lay down good damage.

Thoughts?

Cheers

Definitely two of my favorite chapters. You forgot your third troop for the battalion though. Aside from that I would consider dropping the stalker bolt rifles, but honestly I would drop the Intercessors altogether. Unless you were going for a second battalion. The devs will do more work, especially since you have a LR Crusader full of crusader squads. It may be worth taking a tech marine for all the Vindis and the LR also.

 Captain Garius wrote:
Definitely two of my favorite chapters.

Good stuff!! haha

 Captain Garius wrote:
You forgot your third troop for the battalion though.

That is true! Thanks for pointing that out. It would be a Patrol, not a Battalion. I'll miss the command points, but I'm trying not to rely on Command Points as much. I'll correct it after posting this.

 Captain Garius wrote:
Aside from that I would consider dropping the stalker bolt rifles, but honestly I would drop the Intercessors altogether. Unless you were going for a second battalion. The devs will do more work, especially since you have a LR Crusader full of crusader squads.

To be honest I was hoping to make use of the Bolter Drill Strategem as well as use them as a Guard of sorts for my Warlord. Plus the combination of the AP -2 of the Stalker Bolt Rifles and Ignoring Cover due to Chapter Tactics is rather nice. But in spite of what I said earlier about having less of a reliance on Command Points, would it be more beneficial to have the Intercessors part of the Battalion rather than the Spearhead and use them in exactly the same way (as a Guard of sorts for the Primaris Librarian)?

 Captain Garius wrote:
It may be worth taking a tech marine for all the Vindis and the LR also.

Possibly. I'll play around with removing the Intercessors and adding in a Techmarine to see exactly what I come up with.

The problem with Intercessors is that they are essentially harder to use Sternguard. They are tougher with slighly less offensive power, but more importantly can't ride in most transports. Bolter drill is great, but I find it most useful on Sternguard or Centurions. The biggest problem with the Stalker is that if you move you are now hitting on 4's since they are heavy, plus you can never rapid fire them which makes Bolter Drill worse. I love the idea of the Stalker, but in practice you would be better off with Sternguard for offence, or the Bolt Rifle for defence.

I really love command points, and I would be hesitant to get rid of too many. Especially with plans on using Bolter Drill, and the implied plan of using Linebreaker Bombardment since you have the Vindis. Typically you will want like 4 dice for rerolls, and there will be situational used of the other stratagems too. I try not to leave home with less than 8 (including the 3 for battleforged). For me that is usually a Battallion plus 2 of the following: Vanguard, Spearhead, Outrider. If I am taking expensive units I'll cut one of the latter but CP's are super useful.

I agree with the above, love me Imperial Fists and anyone descended from them.

That being said, here's what I suggest, but it makes it an entirely Crimson Fist army, no Black Templar so if that is a deal breaker feel free to ignore the following:

1) Your intercessors, I think what you were trying to go for was the -2 AP at long range, with enough shots that's enough of a threat to up to T7 that it can't be ignored. Instead I'd go with one 10 man Sternguard with special issue boltguns. Still have the -2 AP for slightly less range, and can rapid fire up to 15" which is pretty far. The reason I'd group them up is so you can use the Strategem that let's them add 1 to wound rolls for the whole squad. That means they can wound up to T7 on a 4+, making them much more effective for this. You lose some wounds, but I think that is acceptable, especially since what I think you were going for was the shots not the durability of the unit, otherwise you would have stuck with Bolt Rifles. Also, this saves you 44pts, if you put a Power Sword on the Sgt, 48 if you don't.

2) I'd replace the Dev squads with 2 Venerable Dreads, TWLC & ML. You'll still have 4 Lascannon shots, lose 2 ML shots, but likely make that up with the 2+ to hit which really seems to make a difference, especially if you're moving and shooting. Also, you go from 10 T4 wounds that lose a lot of firepower with every wound, to 16 T7 Wounds that stay effective fully until they drop. Granted, will suck if you run up against Eldar Hemlocks or some other god awful thing they have that dishes mad damage to single targets, but the Dev's wouldn't fare that much better. This will cost you 10 points you saved from taking the Sternguard.

3) Swap Helbrecht for Kantor, same price. This unit clearly intends to go CC, and Pedro will add 1A to each unit around him. This is important later.

4) Swap Emperor's Champ for Company Champion. Spend 1CP to get an additional artifact, give Pedro Kantor the Fist of Vengence so he's hitting on a 2+ for 3 damage each time, give the Champion the Shield Eternal, upgrading his combat shield to a 3+ that halves the damage he takes. Greatly increases his survivability, and with the extra attack he gets from Kantor this will hopefully make up for the weaker unit. 4A with 3+ Invul seems a decent trade off for being slightly less hurty than the EC, especially since it saves you another 20 pts.

5) Losing the 2 crusader squads gives us 218 pts to play with, plus the 50 saved from the other changes. I'm a little fuzzy with the points for Black Templar so I'm not sure how many units those squads had, but you have 4 power fists, 2 of which I'm assuming were on Sgts, a total of 6 fist attacks. I'd go with the following squad in with Pedro:

2 x 5 Company Veterans

- Thunder Hammer + Plasma Pistol on Sgt
- Plasma Pistol + Power Axe x2
- Plasma Pistol + Chainsword x1
- Bolt Pistol + Chainsword x1

8 Thunderhammer attacks vs 6 Powerfist attacks
8 Plasma Pistol Shots vs. 2 Plas Pistols and 2/4 Plasma shots(that don't work in CC)
2 Pistols shots vs. 6 Pistol Shots(hey can't win em all)
12 Axe attacks at +1S and -2 AP vs. 0 Axe Attacks
16 Normal attacks vs 10 Normal attacks

Also the Vets have the very under rated bodyguard ability and can do wonders to keep either Kantor or the Champion on their feet, all for the same overall price. Sorry if that was too long. Cheers and good luck to the sons of Dorn!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, in my list for the Vet squad, I just realized they are Crimson Fists not Crimson Hammers and Axes. If you want to stay in character:

2 x 5 Company Veterans

- Power Fist + Plasma Pistol x2
- Plasma Pistol + Chainsword x2
- Bolt Pistol + Chainsword x1

14 Powerfist attacks vs 6 Powerfist attacks
8 Plasma Pistol Shots vs. 2 Plas Pistols and 2/4 Plasma shots(that don't work in CC)
2 Pistols shots vs. 6 Pistol Shots(hey can't win em all)
24 Normal attacks at S4 vs 10 Normal attacks at S5

There, that should keep it fluffy!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you're willing to part with the Land Raider, you could take fit all that mess in 2 Razorbacks, Twin AC, Stormbolter, Hunter Killer Missiles, Split one of the existing 5 man Intercessors into 2 x 5 Tac Squad with Lascannons. Then you'd meet Battalion req's, pick up 2 CP, keep some long range hurtin and crowd suppression, and save 30 pts to boot.

You can't give Pedro the Fist since he already has a Relic; his bolter. I usually give the Relic Fist to my Lieutenant.

So true. Well then we have an extra CP to spend!

@Gwarok: I'll have to give the changes you've proposed a try when I get around to buying the models. In the mean time, I have tried a similar setup in terms of the Crusader Squads in a different list last week and the Plasma Guns were not as good as I thought they'd be.

And I'd rather Keep the Black Templars theme - particularly the EC and Helbrecht for a few reasons:

First - I'm a Black Templars player first haha

Second - The +1 Strength to all models within 6" of Helbrecht is useful because in many scenarios I've played in and am likely to play in, it can improve the To Wound roll for all models. This is particularly important on the EC, especially when he's fighting a Character or even the enemy Warlord. A re-rolling 2+ To Wound on a Toughness 4 Warlord is amazing, especially when its AP -3 and D3 Damage per Attack.

Thirdly - Regardless of whether or not they're fighting Characters, both the EX and Helbrecht have pretty good profiles in combat.

Replacing the Crusader Squads with the Company Veterans would be pretty solid, especially with the Black Templar's Chapter Tactics.

 IllumiNini wrote:
@Gwarok: I'll have to give the changes you've proposed a try when I get around to buying the models. In the mean time, I have tried a similar setup in terms of the Crusader Squads in a different list last week and the Plasma Guns were not as good as I thought they'd be.

And I'd rather Keep the Black Templars theme - particularly the EC and Helbrecht for a few reasons:

First - I'm a Black Templars player first haha

Second - The +1 Strength to all models within 6" of Helbrecht is useful because in many scenarios I've played in and am likely to play in, it can improve the To Wound roll for all models. This is particularly important on the EC, especially when he's fighting a Character or even the enemy Warlord. A re-rolling 2+ To Wound on a Toughness 4 Warlord is amazing, especially when its AP -3 and D3 Damage per Attack.

Thirdly - Regardless of whether or not they're fighting Characters, both the EX and Helbrecht have pretty good profiles in combat.

Replacing the Crusader Squads with the Company Veterans would be pretty solid, especially with the Black Templar's Chapter Tactics.

All excellent reasons to keep the Black Templars! Good luck with the list, I look forward to hearing about its crushing successes as a batrep.