Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been trying to figure out what the purpose and the game plan of his model selection is, I couldn't find any youtube videos of any games being played out, wanted to see if anyone had any inside on his list.
Link to list: https://imgur.com/a/h9UCL

Smite spam+plasma scions+conscript wrap+taurox dakka+celestine

Well, what could he want to do with that...?

It's the best units in the game for the Imperium, jammed together in one list. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill to play, but it's not exactly reinventing the wheel in terms of army building.

Why is Celestine so good?

It looks like Smite Spam, with some ability to grab objectives....pretty straight foward. It'll take a fair bit of skill, but that is what Tourneys are for.

Razerous wrote:
Why is Celestine so good?

Very hard to kill so can anchor your line in an army which doesn't have any proper heroic units and provides a nice aura buff while doing so.

That list has a couple of heavy weapons and uses volley guns to make up for low numbers of troopers but is mainly smite spam with 8 casters and a couple of assasins likely staying in close to Celestine to benefit from her aura.

In my opinion its a stupid abuse of the rules and a symbol of just how high end tournament play ruins how the game is meant to be played.

Im not saying that everyone should be magic fluff players but this stuff is just too much and really breaks the spirit of the game.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
In my opinion its a stupid abuse of the rules and a symbol of just how high end tournament play ruins how the game is meant to be played.

Im not saying that everyone should be magic fluff players but this stuff is just too much and really breaks the spirit of the game.

How so? That Smite is so good?

Razerous wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
In my opinion its a stupid abuse of the rules and a symbol of just how high end tournament play ruins how the game is meant to be played.

Im not saying that everyone should be magic fluff players but this stuff is just too much and really breaks the spirit of the game.

How so? That Smite is so good?

That, and half the army is independent characters, I wouldn't doubt if the eversors are there to soak up shots for the Primaris Psykers too. Mostly this list is defined as using advantageous game design rules like smite, mortal wounds, and character tag and breaking them to the point its a strategy, instead of you know, using your actual army as a strategy and playing the game.

This is captive inquisitor servo skulls 2.0

Using an army with Character tags is a strategy, and a notably good one.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make his list any less effective, or provenly powerful.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Using an army with Character tags is a strategy, and a notably good one.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make his list any less effective, or provenly powerful.

I think some players don't like it because it is an effective way to play the game, but it does not jive with their idea about what the game should be about. Some people like Brandon Grant look at the game abstractly. Some things are better than others and some rules are better the others. Their army lists accumulate the units with the best rules and their strategies employ interactions with rules that are most favorable. If the result looks nothing like the fluff, that doesn't matter. Other players want to be immersed in the experience of being a general on a fictitious battlefield where a list should look like the fluff. These views are frequently in-congruent and lead to unfun experiences when the two types of players have a game. Naturally both sides think the other is wrong. Best case scenario, they stay away from each other and let the other experience the game however they want.

It’s an army for a tournament, not friendly play. You can’t criticise a player for bringing a tournament army to a tournament.

However, if tournament armies are miles away from what they should look like according to the fluff, something is wrong. Rules are designed so that armies in use resemble armies in the fluff, and at tournaments they very often don’t. A particular problem I think is that characters can shield other characters, meaning culexus assassins can be abused quite a lot.

I’ll be really interested to see if there are any significant changes to character rules or points values in chapter approved. GW has so far taken a pretty strong line on outlier armies like storm raven spam, so we’ll see if that continues.

Except let's be honest how many times have GW changed their fluff. Most things have been justified somewhere BA necron alliance anyone. Most complaints about fluff are annoying and have nothing to do with the actual fluff. I've heard many complaints about the warcon in 7th but it was fluffy. What armies should look like is very subjective and when people were given formations to tell you what they should look like people hated it as it caused to much consistency.

Smite spam isn't broken its strong vs elite/AV but place it vs hoard and it''s pretty weak.

U02dah4 wrote:
Except let's be honest how many times have GW changed their fluff. Most things have been justified somewhere BA necron alliance anyone. Most complaints about fluff are annoying and have nothing to do with the actual fluff. I've heard many complaints about the warcon in 7th but it was fluffy. What armies should look like is very subjective and when people were given formations to tell you what they should look like people hated it as it caused to much consistency.

Smite spam isn't broken its strong vs elite/AV but place it vs hoard and it''s pretty weak.

Wouldn't call 5 dakka tauroxes bad against hordes. He has that covered too. Overall a great list.

Smite is not overpowered on a 100+ points librarian or farseer. The problem is that primaris psykers and malefic lords are severely undercosted, allowing people to bring 8-10 smite-bots in a TAC list.

And no, there is nothing wrong with bringing a super-duper competitive list to a tournament. That is what tournaments are for.

I have no problem with tourney lists, in 5th I was all about them. However, it seems like 8th s system replaced Deathstars (a problem in 6th and 7th from what I'm told) with wonky character interactions which breaks the spirit of the game. I know they put in character blocking to prevent them from being sniped, and I'm pretty sure they removed IC's being attached to units because the killiness of stuff would make more IC's useless.

They certainly dug themselves into a hole didn't they.

Its a tough as nails list though.

 Fueli wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Except let's be honest how many times have GW changed their fluff. Most things have been justified somewhere BA necron alliance anyone. Most complaints about fluff are annoying and have nothing to do with the actual fluff. I've heard many complaints about the warcon in 7th but it was fluffy. What armies should look like is very subjective and when people were given formations to tell you what they should look like people hated it as it caused to much consistency.

Smite spam isn't broken its strong vs elite/AV but place it vs hoard and it''s pretty weak.

Wouldn't call 5 dakka tauroxes bad against hordes. He has that covered too. Overall a great list.

Smite spam is bad vs hoards I make no claim as to the rest of the list. However most good lists don't just use one tool and you take the tauroxe's to deal with the things smite can't


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:
Smite is not overpowered on a 100+ points librarian or farseer. The problem is that primaris psykers and malefic lords are severely undercosted, allowing people to bring 8-10 smite-bots in a TAC list.

And no, there is nothing wrong with bringing a super-duper competitive list to a tournament. That is what tournaments are for.

100pt+ librarians are just bad but also factor in increased survivability storm bolter and actual damage output in CC which primaris don't get

Well let's see 40pt primaris psyker

Fails to cast smite 1/6 of the time and (even then will often get denied the witched which I won't factor in).

Assuming expectancy of 2 mortal wounds it will make its pts back vs AM infantry in 6 turns or AM conscripts in 8 turns

Compared to an infantry squad which will Las gun 3.33 a turn in rf range and make the pts back in 3 turns while giving you treble the w count.

Sure they are far more pts effective vs vehicles but any decent player should keep a large screen of infantry in the way and it has to target the nearest model

U02dah4 wrote:

 Fueli wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Except let's be honest how many times have GW changed their fluff. Most things have been justified somewhere BA necron alliance anyone. Most complaints about fluff are annoying and have nothing to do with the actual fluff. I've heard many complaints about the warcon in 7th but it was fluffy. What armies should look like is very subjective and when people were given formations to tell you what they should look like people hated it as it caused to much consistency.

Smite spam isn't broken its strong vs elite/AV but place it vs hoard and it''s pretty weak.

Wouldn't call 5 dakka tauroxes bad against hordes. He has that covered too. Overall a great list.

Smite spam is bad vs hoards I make no claim as to the rest of the list. However most good lists don't just use one tool and you take the tauroxe's to deal with the things smite can't


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:
Smite is not overpowered on a 100+ points librarian or farseer. The problem is that primaris psykers and malefic lords are severely undercosted, allowing people to bring 8-10 smite-bots in a TAC list.

And no, there is nothing wrong with bringing a super-duper competitive list to a tournament. That is what tournaments are for.

100pt+ librarians are just bad but also factor in increased survivability storm bolter and actual damage output in CC which primaris don't get

Well let's see 40pt primaris psyker

Fails to cast smite 1/6 of the time and (even then will often get denied the witched which I won't factor in).

Assuming expectancy of 2 mortal wounds it will make its pts back vs AM infantry in 6 turns or AM conscripts in 8 turns

Compared to an infantry squad which will Las gun 3.33 a turn in rf range and make the pts back in 3 turns while giving you treble the w count.

Sure they are far more pts effective vs vehicles but any decent player should keep a large screen of infantry in the way and it has to target the nearest model

Smite spam is a huge part of the meta, and a huge liability for elite infantry lists like GK, Necrons, Space Marines, Primaris Marines that all has models of 12+ points per wound. I am 95% certain that both malefic lords and primaris psykers will cost 60+ points after chapter approved. Or maybe they will get a mini-smite like the Eldar Warlock or Grey Knights.

That smite is weak against guardsmen is correct, but it is also pretty irrelevant.

There's been rumours about limiting smites you can cast or having it affected by diminishing returns, so that first one succeeds normally, second one requires a six and so on.

 Fueli wrote:
There's been rumours about limiting smites you can cast or having it affected by diminishing returns, so that first one succeeds normally, second one requires a six and so on.

Well, Orks would certainly love that.

The new Tyranid Kronos hive fleet would be hard counter to this. His smite spam and pyskic phase would be shut down. Hordes out the rest of the list, and take a good Melee HQ for Celestine and I think it would be a tough nut to crack.

Marines are part of the meta how strange