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I've been searching for the malefic lord without results, is he a FW model book?? Do you find him in the index datasheets??? Have no idea where he comes from

Index: Imperial Armour: Astra Militarum. Renegades & Heretics army list.

So they are FW, can't run them in most of the tournements I play

Whilst I personally think 'No FW' is a tad silly, especially in the face of Papa Smurf, Magnus and Morty, I'll concede these obnoxious little Smite-bots need some fixing (or Smite needs to be OPT)

If you make smite OPT then you have killed off Grey Knights as a viable army (and they're already an endangered specieds).

I like Malefic lords costing in a Power level scenario where they cost 4PL they should be about 80 Pts maybe even 90.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
If you make smite OPT then you have killed off Grey Knights as a viable army (and they're already an endangered specieds).

Fair point, I just think Smite is a tad botched, it feels like it should be a fall back power so Psykers can always contribute but its turned into a source of fairly reliable MW dakka

It's worth noting that a Primaris Psyker is 28 points (without his staff) and comes with a laspistol and 5+. He is also WS 3+ and BS 3+.

So the Malefic Lord is paying 2 pts for +1 toughness and +1 save, which is about right, while losing a laspistol and 1 WS and 1 BS.

I know I am in the minority but I actually think they're fairly costed. If there is a problem with them, then there's a problem with the psychic system.

A primaris psyker is 40 pts. You cant use him without his stave.

p5freak wrote:
A primaris psyker is 40 pts. You cant use him without his stave.

Right, but you're paying 12 pts for the stave.

The Malefic Lord has no wargear.

Comparing a Primaris with expensive wargear with a Malefic lord armed with "bare fists" is a losing proposition.

It's like saying a Predator with no guns is too cheap compared to a Leman Russ with battlecannon and heavy bolter.

The primaris is 28 points for a better WS and BS but worse T and Save compared to the Malefic Lord's 30 points.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

p5freak wrote:
A primaris psyker is 40 pts. You cant use him without his stave.

Right, but you're paying 12 pts for the stave.

The Malefic Lord has no wargear.

Comparing a Primaris with expensive wargear with a Malefic lord armed with "bare fists" is a losing proposition.

It's like saying a Predator with no guns is too cheap compared to a Leman Russ with battlecannon and heavy bolter.

The primaris is 28 points for a better WS and BS but worse T and Save compared to the Malefic Lord's 30 points.

I read this and think about comparisons with the Chaos Sorcerer, who is 102 points with a force sword, bolt pistol, grenades, power armor, and better WS / BS / S / Ld. Unlike the Malefic Lord, he doesn't have Warp Possession. I am not sure the addition of ranged weapons and better stats justifies the increased cost.

There's no balance between psykers of any army. If I were using the Sorcerer as a guide, the ML would cost at least 60 points and the Primaris psyker would cost at least 100 points. If I was using the Primaris psyker as guide, the CS would cost around 50 points and the ML would be fairly costed.

Unhappy with where each one is at, but don't believe the ML is overcosted. If anything, the other ones are off by +/- 50%.

The Maelific Lord also has no synergy with anything , and no faction stratagems. But can summon daemons.. Which is awesome in narrative/open But so-so in matched play

balancing is hard haha.

I do think, at least compared to the Primaris Psyker, the Malefic Lord is fair.

Whether or not the Primaris Psyker is fair is another matter entirely.

I would just add text to his warp possession rule, that he gets perils on every double, so his chances to end himself rightly were a balancing factor to his cost.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

p5freak wrote:
A primaris psyker is 40 pts. You cant use him without his stave.

Right, but you're paying 12 pts for the stave.

The Malefic Lord has no wargear.

Comparing a Primaris with expensive wargear with a Malefic lord armed with "bare fists" is a losing proposition.

It's like saying a Predator with no guns is too cheap compared to a Leman Russ with battlecannon and heavy bolter.

The primaris is 28 points for a better WS and BS but worse T and Save compared to the Malefic Lord's 30 points.

You are very much missing the point. Unlike weapons on a tank, no-one cares about the staff, it is essentially a non-optional tax.

The primaris is 33% more expensive, smites the same and has a worse T and Sv.

That points difference gets you increased WS, BS and the staff - all of which would be discarded if there was an option to do so.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

p5freak wrote:
A primaris psyker is 40 pts. You cant use him without his stave.

Right, but you're paying 12 pts for the stave.

The Malefic Lord has no wargear.

Comparing a Primaris with expensive wargear with a Malefic lord armed with "bare fists" is a losing proposition.

It's like saying a Predator with no guns is too cheap compared to a Leman Russ with battlecannon and heavy bolter.

The primaris is 28 points for a better WS and BS but worse T and Save compared to the Malefic Lord's 30 points.

You are very much missing the point. Unlike weapons on a tank, no-one cares about the staff, it is essentially a non-optional tax.

The primaris is 33% more expensive, smites the same and has a worse T and Sv.

That points difference gets you increased WS, BS and the staff - all of which would be discarded if there was an option to do so.

Yes, this is true...
so are you saying that a Malefic Lord should be more expensive "just because?"

A general premise of a points cost in a game is that better stats and wargear cost more points. Even if you'd rather not pay for them, you do anyways. E.g. a WS6+ guardsman would probably be a point cheaper than the current WS4+ version and everyone would choose it!

Are you disagreeing with the fundamental premise that worse stats and wargear = cheaper model?

He is saying that the model could be WS7+ BS7+ Ld 0 and it wouldn't matter because Smite doesn't depend on them

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

p5freak wrote:
A primaris psyker is 40 pts. You cant use him without his stave.

Right, but you're paying 12 pts for the stave.

The Malefic Lord has no wargear.

Comparing a Primaris with expensive wargear with a Malefic lord armed with "bare fists" is a losing proposition.

It's like saying a Predator with no guns is too cheap compared to a Leman Russ with battlecannon and heavy bolter.

The primaris is 28 points for a better WS and BS but worse T and Save compared to the Malefic Lord's 30 points.

You are very much missing the point. Unlike weapons on a tank, no-one cares about the staff, it is essentially a non-optional tax.

The primaris is 33% more expensive, smites the same and has a worse T and Sv.

That points difference gets you increased WS, BS and the staff - all of which would be discarded if there was an option to do so.

Yes, this is true...
so are you saying that a Malefic Lord should be more expensive "just because?"

A general premise of a points cost in a game is that better stats and wargear cost more points. Even if you'd rather not pay for them, you do anyways. E.g. a WS6+ guardsman would probably be a point cheaper than the current WS4+ version and everyone would choose it!

Are you disagreeing with the fundamental premise that worse stats and wargear = cheaper model?

Where the wargear is irrelevant to the model's primary purpose, yes.

The malelific lord and the primaris both have two requirements - cast powers and not die too easily.

The malelefic lord is better at this while being cheaper.

That staff is 100% tax which would be fine if the ML also got something similar. As it is the ML is better and cheaper. Suggesting that it's okay points wise if you ignore the mandatory staff just doesn't work since the staff adds nothing and is mandatory.

ITT: wargear and stats should be free and cost no points if they are deemed "irrelevant" for a model's purpose by some arbitrary measure.

I am fairly certain that having a lasgun, ws, and bs irrelevant to the conscript's purpose; can they be 1pt per model?

If I was a TO. I would make this sweeping change. Any character psyker that has access to full smite on a 2d6 has it's base cost before weapons increased to 60 points.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
ITT: wargear and stats should be free and cost no points if they are deemed "irrelevant" for a model's purpose by some arbitrary measure.

I am fairly certain that having a lasgun, ws, and bs irrelevant to the conscript's purpose; can they be 1pt per model?

Your argument earlier says that a conscript alternative with no gun and WS, BS 6 could be 1 or 2 points and that would be balanced. Do you agree with that?

Tax stats/wargear must be considered when comparing units (as opposed to your previous handwaving of the staff). Therefore the Malefic Lord is too cheap compared to a Primaris - one or the other should be fixed. It is not acceptable to have the ML be substantially cheaper whilst being superior. Either make the staff optional or, better, give the ML some tax wargear (or just a bump in points).

This is really very simple - if you have two units that are the same price and very similar but one of them has a (relatively) expensive piece of mandatory wargear that's basically useless then the one without the tax is flat out superior.

I think what he is saying is that while a Primaris Psycher is more "dangerous" thanks to the Staff and Laspistol, the Malefic Lord is more survivable thanks to T 4 and a 4+ Invulnerable save (vs 5+ Armor Save). Given that boosted survivability there is no reason the ML should be 25% cheaper than the PP.

As to both being too cheap due to Smite Spam is an entirely different discussion.

A Malefic Lord is actually 2 points more expensive if you ignore wargear, and yes, wargear rightly costs points when compared to a model that doesn't have wargear.

The ML is 10points cheaper. You cannot ignore mandatory wargear.

The value in what you get in the two models is completely disproportionate, one is far more efficient.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
The ML is 10points cheaper. You cannot ignore mandatory wargear.

The value in what you get in the two models is completely disproportionate, one is far more efficient.

I am not ignoring mandatory wargear.

If the Primaris is 10 points more for the exact same efficiency but is 2 pts cheaper without wargear, then the wargear is overcosted.

The Primaris is 10 points more and worse.

The problem is not that the wargear is overcosted, the problem is that the wargear is a substantial part of the model's cost, contributes almost nothing to it's function and mandatory while a similar model lacks that tax.

If they both had it or if it was optional then the disparity would be much smaller.

There would still be a disparity because the toughness and save is worth more than 2pts over the WS and BS for these models.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
The ML is 10points cheaper. You cannot ignore mandatory wargear.

The value in what you get in the two models is completely disproportionate, one is far more efficient.

I am not ignoring mandatory wargear.

If the Primaris is 10 points more for the exact same efficiency but is 2 pts cheaper without wargear, then the wargear is overcosted.

They are both under-costed by about 40-50%.

Maelific Lords going up to 80 pts.
"Balance"

Finally - thank you GW!

To answer the OP I think you could find them in the dumpster once chapter approved comes out.