Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lets take a look at these stratagems.

-Eldar have a new one called forewarned 2CP. Allows a unit within 6" of a farseer to get a free turn of shooting against any enemy unit that deep strike that turn. Unlimited range, no negatives to hit.
Think 10 man dark reapers....
-Space marine have auspex scanner 2 CP. Allows a space marine unit to shoot at a unit entering from reserves at -1 to hit if they are within 12 inches. So -1 to hit and extremely short range...the enemy has to willing drop within range of a super unit that still wont be able to hit them with -1 to hit. for the same cost.

uhh what?

-Only raven guard can use the infiltrate just before the beginning of the game stratagem.
-Any Eldar craft-world can use the webway portal.

Then we have Chapter tactics rule which only affects infantry bikers and dreads - Not our tanks...which are actually the only thing that is competitive in our codex. Which is also sad. Every other army? Unlimitted access to their army traits. The only thing the marines have is Guilliman. Is chapter approved going to fix all this?

Worst compared to what?
What DG or GK have of comparable?

I still think it's pretty well balanced when you consider how expensive some of the Eldar choices are still.
The "intercept" stratagem is a bit odd though, I'll give you that. If fits thematically, but the Marine one really should only be 1CP.

Also, let me adjust this statement for you:
-ANY, up to half your army of Raven Guard can use the infiltrate just before the beginning of the game stratagem.
-Up to 2 max Eldar craft-world units can use the webway portal

As for "Chapter Tactics" only applying to Infantry and Dreads: Keep in mind that all the CWE traits (except Alaitoc) are very specific and not all that great for the whole army
We have 1 good "all purpose" trait and 4 "meh" ones that you have to build your army to use. Marines have what? 7 and at least 3-4 really good ones.

-

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Worst compared to what?
What DG or GK have of comparable?

Gk codex is terrible. It's strategmes are very good in comparison to the marine book though. In comparison I know greyknights can deep strike any 1 unit plus most their army can deep strike anyways. Some are just rehashes from the space marine book though. DG I don't know much about. AdMech/AM/Eldar I have very familiar with and their strategems just blow space marines out of the water with army wide access to their army trait.

I'm still going to disagree with the SM codex being the worst. GK is hands down.

That being said, I'm going to agree that there's a noteworthy gap in capabilities between those two stratagems though, and for the same price.

 Galef wrote:
I still think it's pretty well balanced when you consider how expensive some of the Eldar choices are still.
The "intercept" stratagem is a bit odd though

Also, let me point fix this statement for you:
-ANY raven guard can use the infiltrate just before the beginning of the game stratagem.
-Up to 2 max Eldar craft-world units can use the webway portal

As for "Chapter Tactics" only applying to Infantry and Dreads: Keep in mind that all the CWE traits (except Alaitoc) are very specific and not all that great

-

Well Ulthwe for example might not be that great but it's better than the iron hands because it applies to vehicals and artillery as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:
I'm still going to disagree with the SM codex being the worst. GK is hands down.

That being said, I'm going to agree that there's a noteworthy gap in capabilities between those two stratagems though, and for the same price.

To be fair greyknights are just space marines with a different army trait. They get some new units and lose a lot of units. I still rank them higher than space marines as long as you don't bring guilliman to the table. For example my greyknights are 2-0 against my friends salamanders. They don't feel underpowered against marines - just everything else.

 Galef wrote:
I still think it's pretty well balanced when you consider how expensive some of the Eldar choices are still.

Also, let me point fix this statement for you:
-ANY raven guard can use the infiltrate just before the beginning of the game stratagem.
-Up to 2 max Eldar craft-world units can use the webway portal

Clarification:
Raven Guard one applies strictly to keyword "INFANTRY" units. So while it might allow more than 2 units at a time, it doesn't apply to Bikers or anything else.

I don't think SM players can make any claims until every army has a codex. Then, as soon as that happens, it'll be SM's turn to get a new one.

Yep, SM codex confirmed worst.

I expect them to immediately never win a tournament again forever until this travesty of a codex is replaced.

Furthermore, if I ever lose to an SM army in a casual game, I will hang my head in shame, such is the horrible, awful, complete failure that is the SM codex. In fact, I will pity my opponent even as he tables me for having such a god-awful codex.

If only Space Marines could be like the Sisters of Battle and have a /good/ army for once, that is well-updated and has its own stratagems, new model line to go with 8th, and awesome <Order> tactics for the six major orders, as well as regular releases and a nice unit variety.

Guess someone's gotta be bottom dog though.

My hypothesis is that the SM Codex was intentionally made bland and underpowered, because people will buy Marines regardless of rules, while making all other factions seem stronger by comparison, thus driving up sales of non-Marines.

I'm not sure the word proof was exactly right here

Guilliman and his Assault Cannons seem pretty respectable to me.

 Eldarain wrote:
Guilliman and his Assault Cannons seem pretty respectable to me.

Every codex release makes it less viable, imo. I've constructed a couple of lists that can smoke it with no special characters by just packing in many, many lascannons.

Martel732 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Guilliman and his Assault Cannons seem pretty respectable to me.

Every codex release makes it less viable, imo. I've constructed a couple of lists that can smoke it with no special characters by just packing in many, many lascannons.

So you can beat a tournament winning list with other units from the same book. So it's an awful codex?

I'm wondering how many unit choices the other books have vs. the Space Marine book, which has so many that it splits them out into FOC sections for point values.

Martel732 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Guilliman and his Assault Cannons seem pretty respectable to me.

Every codex release makes it less viable, imo. I've constructed a couple of lists that can smoke it with no special characters by just packing in many, many lascannons.

Please share these lists - thanks!

If BA can do it, I suspect IG can do it 5 X better.

Well, if they get rid of Guilliman, Devestator squads, as well as StormRavens, AC Razorbacks and Destructor Predators.

Grey Knights are hands-down a problem in comparative power levels with the released Codex's so far.

Those wallowing in the land of Index are feeling the pinch, so I would not get too upset yet.

I am wanting to look at the Eldar codex a bit closer to see where they wound up in the scheme of things after being one of the top lists for a while.

 Eldarain wrote:
Guilliman and his Assault Cannons seem pretty respectable to me.

I made a special note on guilliman in the original post. He is wildly better than everything in there and barely makes a competitive army with what he has to buff. I repeat again the question that no one can ever answer. What would be the result if we put Guilliman in the AM codex and he buffed AM catachans like he buffs ultra marines?

 Alpharius wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Guilliman and his Assault Cannons seem pretty respectable to me.

Every codex release makes it less viable, imo. I've constructed a couple of lists that can smoke it with no special characters by just packing in many, many lascannons.

Please share these lists - thanks!

One has

Captain
Primaris Lieutenant
3 X autolas preds
4 X tac squads w/ lascannon, power weapon
2 X tac squads w/ grav cannon, power weapon
3 X twin las razorbacks
Stormraven, lascannons, typhoon, hurricanes.

Pretty sure this can beat the girlyman list. It loses to lots of other things, though, especially -1 to hit lists. This list was built to fight IG lists, by the way. It just happens to do well vs that Rowboat list, too.

There's probably 20 different ways to do what this list does with IG that's better, though.

 Talizvar wrote:
Well, if they get rid of Guilliman, Devestator squads, as well as StormRavens, AC Razorbacks and Destructor Predators.

Grey Knights are hands-down a problem in comparative power levels with the released Codex's so far.

Those wallowing in the land of Index are feeling the pinch, so I would not get too upset yet.

I am wanting to look at the Eldar codex a bit closer to see where they wound up in the scheme of things after being one of the top lists for a while.

I'm not a huge fan of "must include" types of units within codexes. I would prefer if the power was a lot more evened out in the Marine book. Ontop of units though, some of the chapter tactics are pretty... naff.

 Talizvar wrote:
Well, if they get rid of Guilliman, Devestator squads, as well as StormRavens, AC Razorbacks and Destructor Predators.

Grey Knights are hands-down a problem in comparative power levels with the released Codex's so far.

Those wallowing in the land of Index are feeling the pinch, so I would not get too upset yet.

I am wanting to look at the Eldar codex a bit closer to see where they wound up in the scheme of things after being one of the top lists for a while.

They are in the top again. Comparable power level to AM - though not in a brute force way. They have the tools to win games though.

Also Guilliman is the only unit you need to remove from codex space marines to make it completely nonviable competitively.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Also Guilliman is the only unit you need to remove from codex space marines to make it completely nonviable competitively.

Hence the angst of a SM player that has everything VERY Black Templar.
The temptation to be drawn to the "blue-side" is great with that one model.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I still think it's pretty well balanced when you consider how expensive some of the Eldar choices are still.
The "intercept" stratagem is a bit odd though

Also, let me point fix this statement for you:
-ANY raven guard can use the infiltrate just before the beginning of the game stratagem.
-Up to 2 max Eldar craft-world units can use the webway portal

As for "Chapter Tactics" only applying to Infantry and Dreads: Keep in mind that all the CWE traits (except Alaitoc) are very specific and not all that great

-

Well Ulthwe for example might not be that great but it's better than the iron hands because it applies to vehicals and artillery as well.

True, but almost all Eldar vehicles have access to Spirit Stones, which give a 6+FNP that the Ulthwe trait cannot combine with. Unless they have FAQ's it, I believe Iron hands Venerable Dreads have a 3+/6+++/6+++

 Kanluwen wrote:
Clarification:
Raven Guard one applies strictly to keyword "INFANTRY" units. So while it might allow more than 2 units at a time, it doesn't apply to Bikers or anything else.

The Webway stratagem also only applies to Infantry, soooo....
Of course, we also have the Cloudstrike stratagem that works on vehicles, but you cannot use both stratagems in the same game.

My overall point is that Marines and Eldar are different and have different things, as they should. Marines may have a worse A, but Eldar have a worse B, just as Marines have the best X, while Eldar have the best Y.

-

It's hard to take too many complaints about Space Marines seriously. That said, there is some disconnect in the way some things are applied inconsistently across books, such as traits applying to tanks and whatnot. Whether that was intentional or not, who knows, but it also doesnt appear to be crippling for SM's either. If anything id expect Eldar to get nerfed on some of those counts (particularly the fire prism stratagem seeing as how nearly every Eldar army list is autoincluding two).

Lets also take a second and acknowledge that comparing anything to Eldad is always something of a losing battle. They always seem to have powerful buff/faction abilities, exceptions and gimmicks. They are, by far, the single best treated faction in the history of this game, with respect to rules and power at least (not so much models).

But the Marines seem to be doing ok overall, certainly better than GK's and most index lists.

I really like the way Drukhari play compared to marines right now.

The point i was making is that marines can't deep strike a vehicle with a stratagem - and only raven guard can use special infiltration on an infantry unit.

Any Eldar faction can deep strike any vehicle they want (I think they can do 2 for 3 command points). As well as any 1 or 2 infantry/biker. There is a lot more disparity in the codex too. This isn't just a case of this army does this better but that one does this thing better


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I really like the way Drukhari play compared to marines right now.

They are much better than marines. A few stratagems, army traits, and points adjustments and they are at AM level.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The point i was making is that marines can't deep strike a vehicle with a stratagem - and only raven guard can use special infiltration on an infantry unit.

Any Eldar faction can deep strike any vehicle they want (I think they can do 2 for 3 command points). As well as any 1 or 2 infantry/biker. There is a lot more disparity in the codex too. This isn't just a case of this army does this better but that one does this thing better

You could always run some IG technically. It's a really lame solution, and the ally rules need some serious work, but you could do it and hope Chapter Approved has some small changes. In the meantime, at least your army is still in the top 20% of armies right now. So at least there's that.

I think he's projecting into the future a bit here. The Tyranid codex sounds completely superior to marines and the Eldar codex already is.

Also, I know what the likely BA tactic is, and it's 100% worthless, so put BA down next to GK.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's hard to take too many complaints about Space Marines seriously. That said, there is some disconnect in the way some things are applied inconsistently across books, such as traits applying to tanks and whatnot. Whether that was intentional or not, who knows, but it also doesnt appear to be crippling for SM's either. If anything id expect Eldar to get nerfed on some of those counts (particularly the fire prism stratagem seeing as how nearly every Eldar army list is autoincluding two).

Lets also take a second and acknowledge that comparing anything to Eldad is always something of a losing battle. They always seem to have powerful buff/faction abilities, exceptions and gimmicks. They are, by far, the single best treated faction in the history of this game, with respect to rules and power at least (not so much models).

But the Marines seem to be doing ok overall, certainly better than GK's and most index lists.

Because of guilliman - if he actually the primarch of the catachans - they would literally win every game automatically in 1 turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I think he's projecting into the future a bit here. The Tyranid codex sounds completely superior to marines and the Eldar codex already is.

yeah I am - already know what the tyranid codex has.

You know those guilliman razorbacks that everyone is so hot on? Meet Dakka fex. It does more damage than a guilliman razorback without even being buffed by anything. because it has twice the shots at the same strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I think he's projecting into the future a bit here. The Tyranid codex sounds completely superior to marines and the Eldar codex already is.

Also, I know what the likely BA tactic is, and it's 100% worthless, so put BA down next to GK.

Because you are space marine - you will have crap rules. That much is a given. However - it appears we are in power creep mode. You might just get lucky!

FYI Guilliman lists didn't crack the top 5 in the last major tournament in socal. It was won by AM, followed by a couple chaos lists.