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Don't have an Ultramarine force myself but I always found the community's distaste for them perplexing. It seems like Matt Ward was what really got people's goat and the use of them in the promotional material. I always saw them the same as every other space marine chapter, they're just a spin on a historical group or animal.

White Scars=Space Mongols
Ultramarines=Space Romans
Dark Angels=Space Knights
Space Wolves=Obligatory Viking Faction
Salamanders=... well, space salamanders

and so on.

So idk, do people still hate on the little blue men, or have they let the Matt Ward stuff go?

Blavk Templars are space knights.

And yes the hate is there. As such, this topic is probably asking for trouble.

They are the most boring chapter literally the only way to make them interesting is to have one that goes and ignores the rules that define the chapter.

Matt ward saying all other chapters look up to them is where the hate started before that we just ignored them.

As for space romans no they arnt they are far too watered down from what real romans were like.

Death to all smurfs!

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Blavk Templars are space knights.

And yes the hate is there. As such, this topic is probably asking for trouble.

Both kind of are, there is some crossover in their design. Templar are more specifically crusader designed though.

and yeah it seems so, apparently a touchy subject.


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hobojebus wrote:
They are the most boring chapter

what makes you think that? I just don't see how they are any different then all other chapters?.

I'm not sure what watered down means in the context of 40k. If White Scars or Space Wolves acted at all like their historical counterparts they would be chaos legions. I would argue all chapters are "watered down", its more about the aesthetic.

They're a mary sue chapter, led by a plot armor covered gary sue in the form of Gulliman.

Loyalist Marines in general are pretty dull, and Ultramarines are the "most" Loyalist Marines, which makes them the dullest of them all.

Yes

I hate all space marines, but the ultrasmurffs are just so much more fun to hate on.

GW does them no favors, look at the codex schedule. Chapter codices coming out two in one month meanwhile core xenos factions are looking at their indexes.

Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

clownshoes wrote:
Yes

I hate all space marines, but the ultrasmurffs are just so much more fun to hate on.

GW does them no favors, look at the codex schedule. Chapter codexs coming out two in one month meanwhile core xenos factions are looking at their indexes.

Considering that Space Marines make up over 50% of all total GW product sales it kinda makes good business sense to see to the largest population of players first with a new codex and set of rules. Also lets not forget the index are still pretty darn good already so its not as if the xeno factions are unplayable. Besides within two three months time all of 8th edition will be updated to new rules.

lliu wrote:
Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

As much as I disliked him, he made a valuable point: The Ultramarines are not perfect. While we don’t turn into vampires/werwolves/traitors like some other chapters, we have our flaws. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. Overconfidence. Sicarius summed up the “dark” side of the Ultras very well.

Being the poster boys has also made them a victim of a lot of poor writing. A lot of our characters can be summed up as “I’m the best <blank>” even when they shouldn’t be. I just chalk that up to the fact that all the books are basically in-game non-reliable propaganda. And the fact they they get most of the limelight, means they get a proportional share of the crap writing.

But if you want the real mary sue/plot armor chapter, look to the Space Wolves. They are FAR worse in that regard then the Ultras.

I think a lot of the Ultra hate is just echos of 5th, and Ward’s really bad fluff/comments. The echo chamber of the internet and memes won’t let that dies, and it’s something the edgy kids can hang on. I’ve never seen anyone who actually hates the ultras. A lot will toss jokes out, but without any malice behind them.

 Nevelon wrote:
The echo chamber of the internet and memes won’t let that dies, and it’s something the edgy kids can hang on. I’ve never seen anyone who actually hates the ultras. A lot will toss jokes out, but without any malice behind them.

And that sums up a lot of internet hate.

I seriously doubt there's many who honestly hate marines or ultramarines. Jealous of their priority in release schedules and their number of models and upgrades; but actual real hate I doubt there's many. A vocal few who might well scream loud online where its easy to dominate a discussion by just posting lots or by making a few websites.

Vanilla Marines are boring to play.
GW uses UM as showcase army for the gaming system of 40k praising their strength and ''boldness''.

I don't like SM in general, with the exception of a couple of specific independent chapters, which are SW and BA.

But I really hate ultramarines. How they look, their style of play, how they are common and overpowered.

Their LoW is IMHO the ugliest miniature in the entire GW catalogue.

 Blackie wrote:
I don't like SM in general, with the exception of a couple of specific independent chapters, which are SW and BA.

But I really hate ultramarines. How they look, their style of play, how they are common and overpowered.

Their LoW is IMHO the ugliest miniature in the entire GW catalogue.

Marines over-powered, lol wut?

I'm pretty sure I could take on and win pretty easily with 1500 Deathguard/CSM/Renegades vs 2000 Space Marines

Guilliman is a travesty of a figure. Other than that - never seen Ultramarines played in person (which is odd considering how many Guillimans seem to show up...).

They are the most milquetoast of the Space Marines but I don't see any reason to hate them. I despise the model range/aesthetic of Space Wolves ten fold more.

Space marine minis aren’t that bad are they? Or it’s cause I play dark angels. Either way, Guilliman is a really really bad sculpt. The face is just... scarring to look at.

Space Marines, to me, are a lot like that one kid you'd play pretend with in the playground who would go "my thuperhero hath all the powerth. He'th the betht at everything."

and when you say what your character is the best at, he'd interrupt and go "Nuh uh, my thuperhero is the betht at that! He'th got all the powerth!"

Ultramarines just add that little extra layer of generally attracting the kind of player who starts up one of those RPG games where you have sixty thousand different ways to customize your characters face, and hair, and eyes, and skin tone, and who just looks at the first preset character and goes "eh, this one looks good."

The "hate" for Ultramarines I think is due to Games Workshop laziness: it is easier to focus on one "faction" as the "poster-boy" for Space Marines and they are it.
There are many people who play SMs and you can get pretty sick of seeing them everywhere like they are the only group out there.
Playing any other army you feel like a bit of a stepson to the family: included but not favored.

Space Marines are in general cool and some Chapters have interesting lore.

Ultramarines are not one of them. They lack that certain "hook" the other loyalist chapters have. Imperial Fists are tough and determined siege experts. Raven Guard are swift and strike from the shadows. Space Wolves are boisterous space vikings. White Scars ride on bikes, man. Bikes. Black Templars are zealous space knights. Blood Angels are warrior poets who may enter blood frenzy. Legion of the Damned are just metal.

And Ultramarines...? Well, they're blue. And apparently everyone in the imperium looks up to them because of that fact? I suppose one sub-faction among like a thousand of them has to be the generalist faction but I think they could have done a better job with the Ultramarine fluff. And then these guys are elevated to be the gold standard? Of the Space Marine Chapters? Of the Imperium? Of the whole game and setting? C'mon.

Ultramarines are the 40k embodiment of the New England patriots. That is why they are hated.


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 RedCommander wrote:
Space Marines are in general cool and some Chapters have interesting lore.

Ultramarines are not one of them. They lack that certain "hook" the other loyalist chapters have. Imperial Fists are tough and determined siege experts. Raven Guard are swift and strike from the shadows. Space Wolves are boisterous space vikings. White Scars ride on bikes, man. Bikes. Black Templars are zealous space knights. Blood Angels are warrior poets who may enter blood frenzy. Legion of the Damned are just metal.

And Ultramarines...? Well, they're blue. And apparently everyone in the imperium looks up to them because of that fact? I suppose one sub-faction among like a thousand of them has to be the generalist faction but I think they could have done a better job with the Ultramarine fluff. And then these guys are elevated to be the gold standard? Of the Space Marine Chapters? Of the Imperium? Of the whole game and setting? C'mon.

They are experts at everything - their "Special trait" is being master tacticians though. Every chapter that doesn't drink blood or become werewolves aspires to be like the ultra marines - evident by the fact that they have the most chapters built after them - and by the fact they literally tell you that every chapter aspires to be like the ultra marines. Some people just don't by into all the discipline and order the ultras put out - they prefer their armies to be messy and emotional.

the_scotsman wrote:Space Marines, to me, are a lot like that one kid you'd play pretend with in the playground who would go "my thuperhero hath all the powerth. He'th the betht at everything."

and when you say what your character is the best at, he'd interrupt and go "Nuh uh, my thuperhero is the betht at that! He'th got all the powerth!"

If there's a Chapter that does that, it's the Space Wolves.

Bigger than most other Chapters? Yup.
Gets to practically rebel against the Inquisition and get off scot free? Yup.
Gets to be wild and feral, but only because they're so smart and cunning? Yup (this is true, by the way. The Space Wolves claim that all their wildness and savagery is just a method to lull the enemy into a false sense of security?)
"We don't have PSYKERS we have RUNE PRIESTS who don't use the Warp so we're pure but your psykers aren't".
Has the oldest Space Marine alive.
The terribly uninspired naming structure.
Flanderisation of their Wolf aspect.
Experts in close combat, ranged warfare (because their veterans are the ranged specialists), naval warfare, psychic/anti-psychic warfare (because we don't use the warp), armoured warfare, etc etc.
Returned powerful mutated warriors who the Imperium largely accepts, because...?

The list goes on. Space Wolves are far worse written than Ultramarines.

Ultramarines just add that little extra layer of generally attracting the kind of player who starts up one of those RPG games where you have sixty thousand different ways to customize your characters face, and hair, and eyes, and skin tone, and who just looks at the first preset character and goes "eh, this one looks good."

Is that a problem? If the preset is what people want, then why is that a problem?

You're largely missing that Ultramarines are only "bland" because of overexposure. Because they're the most frequently seen, their style is seen as generic, when it couldn't be further from the truth. Take the HH series, where Ultramarines aren't exposed so much, and see how their culture differs from every other Legion. They have a distinct style, which is allowed to show because they aren't being treated as the poster boys.

RedCommander wrote:Space Marines are in general cool and some Chapters have interesting lore.

Ultramarines are not one of them.

Citation needed. Of course, that IS subjective, but have you actually read a HH book on the Ultramarines?

They lack that certain "hook" the other loyalist chapters have. Imperial Fists are tough and determined siege experts. Raven Guard are swift and strike from the shadows. Space Wolves are boisterous space vikings. White Scars ride on bikes, man. Bikes. Black Templars are zealous space knights. Blood Angels are warrior poets who may enter blood frenzy. Legion of the Damned are just metal.

And Ultramarines...? Well, they're blue. And apparently everyone in the imperium looks up to them because of that fact?

No they're looked up to because of the fact their Primarch wrote the Codex - the strategic manual pretty much every Space Marine Chapter adheres to, and that their battle-record is second-to-none, during the Great Crusade and after it. The Ultramarines are incredibly disciplined and by-the-book - and THAT'S probably why there's such a stigma.
In Western culture now, it's seen as a negative to follow the rules and be the straight-man. Chapters like the Space Wolves who "stick it to the man" and generally rebel are popular for that, the White Scars and Raven Guard popular for their wildness and, in the latter's case, edginess. Most of the others are flanderised around a certain style (Salamanders with their flames, White Scars with their bikes etc etc), but Ultramarines aren't flanderised to their Roman/Greek nature. Instead, they're taken to the extreme of "stick to the book and be orderly", which isn't often supported in pop culture. Being a generalist means that they're not as cool or edgy compared to most Chapters who exaggerate their style.

I suppose one sub-faction among like a thousand of them has to be the generalist faction but I think they could have done a better job with the Ultramarine fluff. And then these guys are elevated to be the gold standard? Of the Space Marine Chapters? Of the Imperium? Of the whole game and setting? C'mon.

Again, I am sure that if another Chapter was placed in the seat of "generalist", the Greco/Roman aspects of the Ultramarines would be able to show off more. By being the poster boys, GW has to make sure they're not TOO unique so that they can be used a baseline of what a Standard Space Marine is.


Again, as Nevelon said, they do have a very real weakness in universe. Their own adherence to the Codex, their pride, hubris and glory can get the better of them. Unlike a great many Chapters who say they have a downside, only the Ultramarines have that downside affect them from a meta level too. They don't need crippling mutations or a dark secret to be flawed. Sometimes, their own success can be a breeding ground for more issues. Hell, the Battle for Macragge during the Tyrannic Wars showed that they had a very real inflexibility with the Codex, something they worked on after the battle. That's called character development.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:Space Marines, to me, are a lot like that one kid you'd play pretend with in the playground who would go "my thuperhero hath all the powerth. He'th the betht at everything."

and when you say what your character is the best at, he'd interrupt and go "Nuh uh, my thuperhero is the betht at that! He'th got all the powerth!"

If there's a Chapter that does that, it's the Space Wolves.

Bigger than most other Chapters? Yup.
Gets to practically rebel against the Inquisition and get off scot free? Yup.
Gets to be wild and feral, but only because they're so smart and cunning? Yup (this is true, by the way. The Space Wolves claim that all their wildness and savagery is just a method to lull the enemy into a false sense of security?)
"We don't have PSYKERS we have RUNE PRIESTS who don't use the Warp so we're pure but your psykers aren't".
Has the oldest Space Marine alive.
The terribly uninspired naming structure.
Flanderisation of their Wolf aspect.
Experts in close combat, ranged warfare (because their veterans are the ranged specialists), naval warfare, psychic/anti-psychic warfare (because we don't use the warp), armoured warfare, etc etc.
Returned powerful mutated warriors who the Imperium largely accepts, because...?

The list goes on. Space Wolves are far worse written than Ultramarines.

Ultramarines just add that little extra layer of generally attracting the kind of player who starts up one of those RPG games where you have sixty thousand different ways to customize your characters face, and hair, and eyes, and skin tone, and who just looks at the first preset character and goes "eh, this one looks good."

Is that a problem? If the preset is what people want, then why is that a problem?

You're largely missing that Ultramarines are only "bland" because of overexposure. Because they're the most frequently seen, their style is seen as generic, when it couldn't be further from the truth. Take the HH series, where Ultramarines aren't exposed so much, and see how their culture differs from every other Legion. They have a distinct style, which is allowed to show because they aren't being treated as the poster boys.

I don't disagree that Space Wolves are horribly written Marty Stues. There are two things that make me dislike them less:

1) Viking Marines can be a pretty cool look. Some of their stuff, like the Axe/Shield dread, and generally speaking anything that isn't a giant cartoon wolf, is fairly neat looking.

2) most of their special characters are norse gods in space marine form. That's a neat schtick. Some are admittedly just "commander guy with a name" but Thor in terminator armor, Loki in power armor, Odin as a space wizard are kind of nifty looking.

By contrast, the Ultramarine characters are:

-A Captain, BUT CAPTAINIER!
-A librarian, BUT LIBRARIANER!
-A chaplain, BUT CHAPLAINIER!
-A tank commander, BUT TANK COMMANDERIER!
-A scout, but SCOUTIER!
-A dude sitting at home and crying into his powerfists because he's been replaced with a newer, sexier Marty Stu
-The Alpha Marty Stu, the bestest bestest best at everything!

As to "why is choosing the preset character in an RPG game a problem"... I mean, it's not, theoretically. It's just kind of...limited. The distinction between this game system and others is that you actually build your soldiers, paint them however you like, limitless possibilities (at least, if you include the ability to sculpt your own stuff, go to third party bits, etc). Going with Ultramarines is a little like taking a tactical squad box and very carefully and meticulously replicating every wargear and pose combination shown on the box, not wanting to deviate from the standard in any way.

Ultramarines are the default version of the default faction, and are therefore the lowest possible bar for creativity in 40k. And I don't particularly care about "30k makes them interesting" - to me, that's kind of analogous to "the plot of Phantom Menace makes perfect sense if you just read the expanded universe novels! Also Darth Maul is a super interesting character!"

brettdavis1991 wrote:
Don't have an Ultramarine force myself but I always found the community's distaste for them perplexing. It seems like Matt Ward was what really got people's goat and the use of them in the promotional material. I always saw them the same as every other space marine chapter, they're just a spin on a historical group or animal.

White Scars=Space Mongols
Ultramarines=Space Romans
Dark Angels=Space Knights
Space Wolves=Obligatory Viking Faction
Salamanders=... well, space salamanders

and so on.

So idk, do people still hate on the little blue men, or have they let the Matt Ward stuff go?

They were hated on before Ward, but he really cranked it up. They were always somewhat disparaged as the beginners kiddie army, had relatively boring fluff, and were just kind of uninteresting. Ward cranked them up to 11, and now they've got their Primarch back who also is used as a major powergaming element.

Some of the Codex writing has not helped but IMO the Codex writing (and that's a generous term) has been worse for the snowflake Chapters

My Space Wolves went from being Space Vikings to a frankly laughable parody of themselves whilst also becoming increasingly super at everything and no-one could mess with them. Stupid thinks like the WOLFY wolf wolves riding on Wolves with wolf swords were one thing but the fact that suddenly they had a space fleet with hundreds of ships (!) and multiple star forts does not help when even chapters like the UM have maybe twenty ships. I still have my Space Wolves but have refused to buy almost any of the new models.

Blood Angels had a similar flavour infusion which tried very hard to ruin nay kind of background they had developed.

My Dark Angels have become more and more dubious and to my mind uninteresting - their own Super Special Flavour units have not helped. The whole Deathwing story seems to have been lost in a gloomy EMO fantasy.

Ultras have had less SSF units - Praise the Emperor and not Flanderisation turned up to THE MAX!

 Mr Morden wrote:
Some of the Codex writing has not helped but IMO the Codex writing (and that's a generous term) has been worse for the snowflake Chapters

My Space Wolves went from being Space Vikings to a frankly laughable parody of themselves whilst also becoming increasingly super at everything and no-one could mess with them. Stupid thinks like the WOLFY wolf wolves riding on Wolves with wolf swords were one thing but the fact that suddenly they had a space fleet with hundreds of ships (!) and multiple star forts does not help when even chapters like the UM have maybe twenty ships. I still have my Space Wolves but have refused to buy almost any of the new models.

Blood Angels had a similar flavour infusion which tried very hard to ruin nay kind of background they had developed.

My Dark Angels have become more and more dubious and to my mind uninteresting - their own Super Special Flavour units have not helped. The whole Deathwing story seems to have been lost in a gloomy EMO fantasy.

Ultras have had less SSF units - Praise the Emperor and not Flanderisation turned up to THE MAX!

I'm glad we can agree that the space wolves are actually the lamest of all chapters when it comes to fluff and marysuism.

In all honesty, I don't hate them, they're just boring. There is no edge of sour taste to them as a faction. No notable gene seed mutation, no dark secrets, their minis are literally the vanilla SM minis. They are the 40k equivalent of oatmeal with a side of water.

I'll take overly perfect Blue Space Romans over Wolfy McWolferson McMurderWolf any day of the week.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Some of the Codex writing has not helped but IMO the Codex writing (and that's a generous term) has been worse for the snowflake Chapters

My Space Wolves went from being Space Vikings to a frankly laughable parody of themselves whilst also becoming increasingly super at everything and no-one could mess with them. Stupid thinks like the WOLFY wolf wolves riding on Wolves with wolf swords were one thing but the fact that suddenly they had a space fleet with hundreds of ships (!) and multiple star forts does not help when even chapters like the UM have maybe twenty ships. I still have my Space Wolves but have refused to buy almost any of the new models.

Blood Angels had a similar flavour infusion which tried very hard to ruin nay kind of background they had developed.

My Dark Angels have become more and more dubious and to my mind uninteresting - their own Super Special Flavour units have not helped. The whole Deathwing story seems to have been lost in a gloomy EMO fantasy.

Ultras have had less SSF units - Praise the Emperor and not Flanderisation turned up to THE MAX!

I'm glad we can agree that the space wolves are actually the lamest of all chapters when it comes to fluff and marysuism.

Sadly that is pretty much where they are now :(

Hating on Ultramarines - I view it as a civic duty to the 40k gaming community as a whole.

Also, Brontosaurus Carl must have some awesome cloning, and very frowned upon, Dark Age cloning archeotech kicking about as Papasmurf seems to be everywhere at once from what I hear.

My hate for UM also stems from the fact we have two "that guy"s locally...Who both run nothing but Gulliman + UM.