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now that Roboute realizes that the Emperor only saw his sons as tools

I think Guliman understand perfectly well why Horus did what he did. Horus was an idiot. He saw what the emperor was up against. The horror that they where fighting. In that realisation Horus gave up. Oh yeah, he put other labels on it. But instead of coming to the realisation that it was a hard fight, but a fight worth fighting he gave up. Blamed the emperor. Sided with random enthropic elements in the universe.

Although I supose my objection to horus is more in the veins of Nietche, I think Batman says it fine here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efub89RMgvQ

I'll grant you the emperors biggest mistake was not entrusting the Primarchs with the thorugh. Especialy when they figured it out on their own. But I suppose it was one of those senaries where drawing an attension to something could potensially make it worse.

Was the plan perfect? No. Does that give you the right to object? Yes. Could somebody else have done it better at the time? We don't know. When somebody else is in charge verybody is a backseat driver.

Horus did it mostly because he got possessed

Well I don't know about possessed, but certainly his brush with Chaos on Davin certainly amplified all the doubts and negative emotions he had about the Emperor and his cause.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to the OP question; I think because Roboute lacks the imagination and charisma of Horus he isn't treated by, and doesn't understand, the world in the same way.

However he might have his own crisis of conscience about whether humanity are even worth saving as he doesn't like what humans have done with the Imperium.

 Kroem wrote:

However he might have his own crisis of conscience about whether humanity are even worth saving as he doesn't like what humans have done with the Imperium.

He's already gone through his 'why am I still alive to see this' phase. He got over it.

Guilliman might understand my Horus turned but he'd never agree with it. He values humanity too much and ultimately the Emperor was working for the betterment of humanity. He'd focus on the greater good rather than let his own ego cause a massive civil war.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Kroem wrote:

However he might have his own crisis of conscience about whether humanity are even worth saving as he doesn't like what humans have done with the Imperium.

He's already gone through his 'why am I still alive to see this' phase. He got over it.

Guilliman might understand my Horus turned but he'd never agree with it. He values humanity too much and ultimately the Emperor was working for the betterment of humanity. He'd focus on the greater good rather than let his own ego cause a massive civil war.

What the Emperor was doing is hardly that clear cut. How is Roboute seeing Xenos allies now? The same as the Crusade?

Oddly, the very state of The Imperium has given Roboute purpose beyond The Great Crusade, that of working to reclaim what has been lost, in every sense.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oddly, the very state of The Imperium has given Roboute purpose beyond The Great Crusade, that of working to reclaim what has been lost, in every sense.

You've just described the great crusade again. He's redoing the emperor's work, not making something new.

 Niiai wrote:
I think Guliman understand perfectly well why Horus did what he did. Horus was an idiot. He saw what the emperor was up against. The horror that they where fighting. In that realisation Horus gave up. Oh yeah, he put other labels on it. But instead of coming to the realisation that it was a hard fight, but a fight worth fighting he gave up. Blamed the emperor. Sided with random enthropic elements in the universe.

Although I supose my objection to horus is more in the veins of Nietche, I think Batman says it fine here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efub89RMgvQ

I'll grant you the emperors biggest mistake was not entrusting the Primarchs with the thorugh. Especialy when they figured it out on their own. But I suppose it was one of those senaries where drawing an attension to something could potensially make it worse.

Was the plan perfect? No. Does that give you the right to object? Yes. Could somebody else have done it better at the time? We don't know. When somebody else is in charge verybody is a backseat driver.

Well said.

Sure, the Emperor wasn't the best dad ever but that's still not a good enough reason to do what Horus did.

In the end, Emperor's ideals are more important than the man himself and this is something that Guilliman understands.

Horus and Gulliman are very differant at their core. at Horus' core is a great deal of personal ambition, he strives to be the best etc. Gulliman is differant, he;'s a builder, his ambition is more to build things, etc Gulliman is more intreasted in building a stable secure government then being lauded for being awesome

Although I do not think that Meyers Briggs personalaty trsts hold much water, I would say he fits the description of INTJ.

I'm gonna believe that Roboute understood perfectly but had extraordinarily different view on how to express it compared to Horus. Horus is a warmaster and rebelled through war. Roboute is an empire builder and rebelled by building his own separate empire. Then later became a spiritual liege which muddled things up.

Not sure how that posted prematurely

Horus' "reason" was getting shanked by a Chaos-tainted blade and then going on a Chaos initiated LSD trip which completely duped him into turning on the Imperium (and depended upon him being an idiot apparently who couldn't see through a blatant ruse). So unless Guilliman gets shanked by a daemon blade and goes on a Chaos drug trip, I don't think he's going to be seeing Horus' "motivations", which was really just being strung along like a puppet.

Snorting warp stone dust like a skaven boss is great head canon. I'm gonna hold on to that idea.

All the Primarchs had Daddy Issues. How do you think they all reacted when Daddy sad "You are all the greatest! Except Horus! He is the Greatest of the Greatest!" Talk about screwing with your self esteem. And then Dad just... walks out. Leaves all his kids to lock himself into his garage to work on something.

Horus is all like "Well What do I do now? Keep fighting I guess..." And like a predator, Chaos swoops in to fill in the gaps left behind by the Emperor. They tell Horus all kinds of lies and then show him the future- the Emperor dead, the Imperium in ruins. Then the biggest lie of all- "This future will come true unless you do something about it..." Horus buys it, and BOOM. Horus Heresy. I love the idea that Horus was on an acid trip due to being wounded by a poisoned blade at the time too.

When warp storms ravage the Galaxy, Bobby G does what Bobby G does best: Master Politician, Governor, and Strategist. He thinks Terra is gone, knows Horus and his Home Boys have probably already destroyed Terra, and the rest of the Imperium is next. He gathers his Best Buds, and instead of making himself Emperor, in a brilliant stroke he says Sanguinius should be Emperor. He establishes Imperium Secondius, and then hunkers down. Bobby G knows how things are going to play out and fortifies his position for the coming assault. Bobby G has written the Imperium off as a lost cause and doesn't even try to fight for it.

What's even more interesting is what Bobby G did after Horus killed Sanguinius, mortally wounded the Emperor, and in turn was slain. At a time when the Imperium needed strong leadership, the guy most qualified to guide and lead the Imperium writes the Codex Astartus, and...? Ends up getting assassinated and thrown in a stasis field.

Flash forward 10 millennium. Bobby G is brought back, makes a bee line to Terra. During the trip, he gets captured and his traitor brothers try to corrupt and tempt him. He escapes, and finally sees dad. We don't know what went on behind closed doors, but he walks out, claims the tittle "First Lord of Terra", and then reveals his new Primarus Legion of Space Marines.

If you ask me, Bobby G is totally following in Horus' footsteps, except where Horus used force, Bobby G is using politics.

That was great, have an exalt, good sir!

 Niiai wrote:
I think Guliman understand perfectly well why Horus did what he did. Horus was an idiot. He saw what the emperor was up against. The horror that they where fighting. In that realisation Horus gave up. Oh yeah, he put other labels on it. But instead of coming to the realisation that it was a hard fight, but a fight worth fighting he gave up. Blamed the emperor. Sided with random enthropic elements in the universe.

Although I supose my objection to horus is more in the veins of Nietche, I think Batman says it fine here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efub89RMgvQ

I'll grant you the emperors biggest mistake was not entrusting the Primarchs with the thorugh. Especialy when they figured it out on their own. But I suppose it was one of those senaries where drawing an attension to something could potensially make it worse.

Was the plan perfect? No. Does that give you the right to object? Yes. Could somebody else have done it better at the time? We don't know. When somebody else is in charge verybody is a backseat driver.

Nope, Horus actually believed what he was doing was right, and the emperor was a tyrant that would abandon the very beings that made his imperium, there is a lot more to it than that but at no point in anyway shape or form did Horus "give up" infact that is so against his established character and fluff its hard to believe you have read any of the novels about him


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Horus did it mostly because he got possessed

um... no he wasnt? are you talking about Davin? or the old fluff ? just curious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Horus' "reason" was getting shanked by a Chaos-tainted blade and then going on a Chaos initiated LSD trip which completely duped him into turning on the Imperium (and depended upon him being an idiot apparently who couldn't see through a blatant ruse). So unless Guilliman gets shanked by a daemon blade and goes on a Chaos drug trip, I don't think he's going to be seeing Horus' "motivations", which was really just being strung along like a puppet.

He was shanked by that blade or at least a shard of it in Know No Fear, Big papa G didnt fall though.

I love the idea of Roboute being a more subtle Horus.

Although it seems unfair to claim all the Primarchs had daddy issues. Russ seemed fine with Horus being Warmaster and seemed pretty happy just being left to his own devices with the Wolves.

 Formosa wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I think Guliman understand perfectly well why Horus did what he did. Horus was an idiot. He saw what the emperor was up against. The horror that they where fighting. In that realisation Horus gave up. Oh yeah, he put other labels on it. But instead of coming to the realisation that it was a hard fight, but a fight worth fighting he gave up. Blamed the emperor. Sided with random enthropic elements in the universe.

Although I supose my objection to horus is more in the veins of Nietche, I think Batman says it fine here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efub89RMgvQ

I'll grant you the emperors biggest mistake was not entrusting the Primarchs with the thorugh. Especialy when they figured it out on their own. But I suppose it was one of those senaries where drawing an attension to something could potensially make it worse.

Was the plan perfect? No. Does that give you the right to object? Yes. Could somebody else have done it better at the time? We don't know. When somebody else is in charge verybody is a backseat driver.

Nope, Horus actually believed what he was doing was right, and the emperor was a tyrant that would abandon the very beings that made his imperium, there is a lot more to it than that but at no point in anyway shape or form did Horus "give up" infact that is so against his established character and fluff its hard to believe you have read any of the novels about him


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Horus did it mostly because he got possessed

um... no he wasnt? are you talking about Davin? or the old fluff ? just curious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Horus' "reason" was getting shanked by a Chaos-tainted blade and then going on a Chaos initiated LSD trip which completely duped him into turning on the Imperium (and depended upon him being an idiot apparently who couldn't see through a blatant ruse). So unless Guilliman gets shanked by a daemon blade and goes on a Chaos drug trip, I don't think he's going to be seeing Horus' "motivations", which was really just being strung along like a puppet.

He was shanked by that blade or at least a shard of it in Know No Fear, Big papa G didnt fall though.

I do not read Horus like that. He choses the easy way out. He gives up the complicated plan put forth by the emperor. He sides in with the very enemy he is suppose to be fighting. What ever propaganda he buys into, or how he justefies it to his henchemen, does not really matter. Watch his actions, not his words. He just caves in and throws a tantrum because the task he has givven is to hard. If you read the novels you have the part in the museum where they fight the people with bows that can pierce power armour. He throws out some rather passive agressive tantrums there. And then he gives up.

 Niiai wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I think Guliman understand perfectly well why Horus did what he did. Horus was an idiot. He saw what the emperor was up against. The horror that they where fighting. In that realisation Horus gave up. Oh yeah, he put other labels on it. But instead of coming to the realisation that it was a hard fight, but a fight worth fighting he gave up. Blamed the emperor. Sided with random enthropic elements in the universe.

Although I supose my objection to horus is more in the veins of Nietche, I think Batman says it fine here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efub89RMgvQ

I'll grant you the emperors biggest mistake was not entrusting the Primarchs with the thorugh. Especialy when they figured it out on their own. But I suppose it was one of those senaries where drawing an attension to something could potensially make it worse.

Was the plan perfect? No. Does that give you the right to object? Yes. Could somebody else have done it better at the time? We don't know. When somebody else is in charge verybody is a backseat driver.

Nope, Horus actually believed what he was doing was right, and the emperor was a tyrant that would abandon the very beings that made his imperium, there is a lot more to it than that but at no point in anyway shape or form did Horus "give up" infact that is so against his established character and fluff its hard to believe you have read any of the novels about him


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Horus did it mostly because he got possessed

um... no he wasnt? are you talking about Davin? or the old fluff ? just curious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Horus' "reason" was getting shanked by a Chaos-tainted blade and then going on a Chaos initiated LSD trip which completely duped him into turning on the Imperium (and depended upon him being an idiot apparently who couldn't see through a blatant ruse). So unless Guilliman gets shanked by a daemon blade and goes on a Chaos drug trip, I don't think he's going to be seeing Horus' "motivations", which was really just being strung along like a puppet.

He was shanked by that blade or at least a shard of it in Know No Fear, Big papa G didnt fall though.

I do not read Horus like that. He choses the easy way out. He gives up the complicated plan put forth by the emperor. He sides in with the very enemy he is suppose to be fighting. What ever propaganda he buys into, or how he justefies it to his henchemen, does not really matter. Watch his actions, not his words. He just caves in and throws a tantrum because the task he has givven is to hard. If you read the novels you have the part in the museum where they fight the people with bows that can pierce power armour. He throws out some rather passive agressive tantrums there. And then he gives up.

Sorry to be argumentative but thats just wrong, its his actions that show he has not "given up", are you just going by the first book ? or have you read all of the "Horus" books?

pm713 wrote:
I love the idea of Roboute being a more subtle Horus.

Although it seems unfair to claim all the Primarchs had daddy issues. Russ seemed fine with Horus being Warmaster and seemed pretty happy just being left to his own devices with the Wolves.

Wasn't Jaghati Khan also pretty much fine to just wander around doing ultra-rapid assaults?

Honestly the only reason I can see someone wouldn't think Horus had completely given up on humanity is if you had a vested interest in his near perfection and thus lack of flaws. Given how Primarchs have been written, I suppose that's inevitable.

Roboute didnt really view the Emperor as a father the same way the rest of them did. His creator, yes, but he undoubtedly viewed Konor as more of a father than he ever did the Emperor.

The burning of monarchia probably sealed that deal - he was quite upset being used as the stick to beat Lorgar with.

 Formosa wrote:


Sorry to be argumentative but thats just wrong, its his actions that show he has not "given up", are you just going by the first book? or have you read all of the "Horus" books?

Horus' chosen path pretty much amounted to let Chaos - aka, the enemy of all reality - rule over everything forever, I'd say "giving up" sounds quite right.

Unless he deluded himself into thinking he could have pushed Chaos back into its cage in the aftermath of its supreme victory, which is the same as the classic "I can quit at any time" addict denialism.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Roboute didnt really view the Emperor as a father the same way the rest of them did. His creator, yes, but he undoubtedly viewed Konor as more of a father than he ever did the Emperor.

Why? What made him so different to all the others that had fathers?

 Esmer wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


Sorry to be argumentative but thats just wrong, its his actions that show he has not "given up", are you just going by the first book? or have you read all of the "Horus" books?

Horus' chosen path pretty much amounted to let Chaos - aka, the enemy of all reality - rule over everything forever, I'd say "giving up" sounds quite right.

Unless he deluded himself into thinking he could have pushed Chaos back into its cage in the aftermath of its supreme victory, which is the same as the classic "I can quit at any time" addict denialism.

Thats exactly what he has done, he absolutely believes he will put chaos back in its cage after he wins the war, he even says as much to Maloghurst when the Davinite priests attempt to have him possessed by a Deamon, the Gods want him to come to "heel", he wants to do his own thing and rule over humanity as its new emperor, after he goes to Molech he makes the claim that he will no longer be Emperor, he will be a God.

But lets also look at what happened on Molech, he enters the warp gate, spends possibly thousands of years in the warp, fighting Deamons, creating empires, all kinds of things, not the actions of a man that has given up, but the actions of a man with a purpose.

He has not given up on humanity, in his own twisted way he thinks he is saving humanity.

I think it's relatively easy to understand why Horus did what he did, but that doesn't mean his logic was justified. Yeah the Emperor had flaws but what Horus did was hardly an appropriate response. Like others have said though, if it weren't for Chaos getting a back door into his soul it probably wouldn't have happened.


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 Wyzilla wrote:
Horus' "reason" was getting shanked by a Chaos-tainted blade and then going on a Chaos initiated LSD trip which completely duped him into turning on the Imperium (and depended upon him being an idiot apparently who couldn't see through a blatant ruse). So unless Guilliman gets shanked by a daemon blade and goes on a Chaos drug trip, I don't think he's going to be seeing Horus' "motivations", which was really just being strung along like a puppet.

You ignore the fact that the altered mental state affects what he would perceive as a ruse. To an outside observer a person's hallucinations or paranoia are obviously false, but to the person experiencing them it seems crazy not to believe them.

As I said then, pure denialism. It's really the same behavior that is prevalent with many addicts (drugs and otherwise) - that at some point in the future, you can just stop doing that thing that is consuming you, with no outside help.
It's not going to happen, and the person in question is deliberately lying to itself and running from the reality of his or her situation.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think it's relatively easy to understand why Horus did what he did, but that doesn't mean his logic was justified. Yeah the Emperor had flaws but what Horus did was hardly an appropriate response. Like others have said though, if it weren't for Chaos getting a back door into his soul it probably wouldn't have happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Horus' "reason" was getting shanked by a Chaos-tainted blade and then going on a Chaos initiated LSD trip which completely duped him into turning on the Imperium (and depended upon him being an idiot apparently who couldn't see through a blatant ruse). So unless Guilliman gets shanked by a daemon blade and goes on a Chaos drug trip, I don't think he's going to be seeing Horus' "motivations", which was really just being strung along like a puppet.

You ignore the fact that the altered mental state affects what he would perceive as a ruse. To an outside observer a person's hallucinations or paranoia are obviously false, but to the person experiencing them it seems crazy not to believe them.

I've been in an altered state while on a serious morphine high after surgery. You can absolutely tell if a hallucination is a load of bollocks. And there's definitely no reason to take anything you "meet" in such a high seriously at all or believe a lick of what's said. Horus also sin't some junkie with a torched brain, but the pinnacle of human biology married equally with the Warp. That he fell to Chaos in such a swift obvious manner merely speaks of him being an utter moron, courtesy of the Black Library's incompetence when it comes to writing characters with substance to them.

Angron had the only sort of clear view of the Emperor.