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Reading a lot of people talking about the Forewarned/Auspex Scan stratagems, reminded me I wanted to ask a question about "Drop Pod Assault" and deep striking in general.

Per my reading of "Drop Pod Assault"; it appears to me that when arriving from reinforcements, the Drop Pod is doing the deepstriking, not the units inside - they're just disembarking after arrival [the fact it happens at the same time is a bonus].

Based on this, does that mean units disembarking from a drop pod are unable to be shot at using the stratagems that allow you to shoot deepstriking units?

Drop Pod Assault
"During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it, in
orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases this model can perform
a drop pod assault – set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.
Any models embarked inside must immediately disembark, but they must be set up more than 9" away from any
enemy models. Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain."

Auspex Scan
"Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up
a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements
within 12" of one of your ADEPTUS ASTARTES Infantry
units. Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit
as if it were the Shooting phase, but you must subtract 1
from all the resulting hit rolls."

We've had this discussion multiple times.

The rules simply don't give enough information. It's just as valid to argue that the drop pod is the only one arriving and the models inside are disembarking, as it is to argue that both units began the turn off the board and arrived on the board that turn, thus count as reinforcements.

It needs errata, but GW won't give us that because it would mean admitting they are bad writers. We'll get a special snowflake FAQ ruling if we get anything at all.

Discuss it pre-game is all I can say.

Damn, my bad - that'll teach me to search before I ask a question.

And alright; I'll discuss it with my opponent before hand.

Someone in another thread commented that in previous editions the units disembarking were also able to be shot as though they had arrived from Deep Strike - if the "Mobile Fortress"/Battlewagon ruling has taught me anything, it's to play things in the way that least favors you, until a ruling comes out and settles it for good.

Things have changed up between edition. In previous editions you could use witchfire powers from inside a vehicle where you don't now, for example. Last edition you could have Tyranids and Tau, or Necrons and Night Lords in the same army in different detachments, where you can't now. We can't assume that things are staying the same between editions, especially when they've made it obvious that things have changed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
We've had this discussion multiple times.

The rules simply don't give enough information. It's just as valid to argue that the drop pod is the only one arriving and the models inside are disembarking, as it is to argue that both units began the turn off the board and arrived on the board that turn, thus count as reinforcements.

We all need to forget we ever heard the term 'deep strike'. This is about arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

The unit in the drop pod is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements. I can't see any argument otherwise. The unit is put in reinforcements at the start of the game via the Drop Pod Assault rule. It arrives on the battlefield via the same rule. It is arriving on the battlefield as a reinforcement, therefore the stratagem allows for shooting at it. The fact that they are disembarking from the Drop Pod is basically irrelevant to this.

 John Prins wrote:
The unit in the drop pod is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements. I can't see any argument otherwise.

I literally gave the argument in the post you quoted. "It's just as valid to argue that the drop pod is the only one arriving and the models inside are disembarking, as it is to argue that both units began the turn off the board and arrived on the board that turn, thus count as reinforcements."

To say that the models that disembark from the Drop Pod are "arriving from reserves" makes as much sense as saying disembarking from a Land Raider is "arriving from reserves", so goes the logic (one which I agree with personally but the RaW is clear as pig slurry).

You're entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine, but you cannot in good conscience suggest that the matter is clear cut.

 John Prins wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
We've had this discussion multiple times.

The rules simply don't give enough information. It's just as valid to argue that the drop pod is the only one arriving and the models inside are disembarking, as it is to argue that both units began the turn off the board and arrived on the board that turn, thus count as reinforcements.

We all need to forget we ever heard the term 'deep strike'. This is about arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

The unit in the drop pod is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements. I can't see any argument otherwise. The unit is put in reinforcements at the start of the game via the Drop Pod Assault rule. It arrives on the battlefield via the same rule. It is arriving on the battlefield as a reinforcement, therefore the stratagem allows for shooting at it. The fact that they are disembarking from the Drop Pod is basically irrelevant to this.

The transport (drop pod) is arriving as a deep strike - not the units inside.

If you deep strike a Wave Serpent (Altioc stratagem), and the units disembark at a later time - are they still considered "reinforcements"? [This matters, because if the squad inside still counts as "reinforcements", you can use the stratagems to shoot them; no matter what turn they disembark.] The transport is, yes; but the units inside, objectively, no. The fact that a drop pod allows you to do both, one after another, is irrelevant.

Personally, I'd love to argue this until the end of time - but BaconCatBug gave us the right answer; there's not enough information to determine ATM. Until an FAQ comes out, just talk about it with your opponent.

The Wave Serpent example is a killer and one of the main reasons I personally think the rules lean towards the passengers NOT counting as reinforcements.

I wonder if after a year of GW not providing answers, the main tournament circuits should team together and release a comprehensive community FAQ (we even have a big list of questions at the top of the forum! )

fe40k wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

We all need to forget we ever heard the term 'deep strike'. This is about arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

The transport (drop pod) is arriving as a deep strike - not the units inside.

Yeah, see here is the problem, everyone is tripping over 'deep strike'. I agree, the unit inside did not deep strike. But they did arrive on the battlefield as a reinforcement. THAT is what allows the stratagem to shoot at them.

The crux here seems to be that people think the stratagem MUST be used when the drop pod lands before the people inside it get out. I don't think it does. It's not a normal disembark happening in normal sequence, it's a special rule. Drop pod arrives, unit deploys, opponent can use stratagem on either the pod or the unit because they both arrived on the battlefield via the same special rule.

 John Prins wrote:

fe40k wrote:

 John Prins wrote:

We all need to forget we ever heard the term 'deep strike'. This is about arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

The transport (drop pod) is arriving as a deep strike - not the units inside.

Yeah, see here is the problem, everyone is tripping over 'deep strike'. I agree, the unit inside did not deep strike. But they did arrive on the battlefield as a reinforcement. THAT is what allows the stratagem to shoot at them.

The crux here seems to be that people think the stratagem MUST be used when the drop pod lands before the people inside it get out. I don't think it does. It's not a normal disembark happening in normal sequence, it's a special rule. Drop pod arrives, unit deploys, opponent can use stratagem on either the pod or the unit because they both arrived on the battlefield via the same special rule.

They arrive on the battlefield via disembarking from the drop pod. The question is whether that counts as a reinforcement. As pointed out, you get the other questions of with a Wave Serpent, if they don't disembark for a turn or two after the Wave Serpent deep strikes, do they still count as reinforcements. For that matter, does that make any unit that starts the game embarked in a vehicle reinforcements when they disembark. I don't think anyone wants to claim the last happens. The problem is, all we are given for the troops inside the drop pod is that they arrive by disembarking. You're right, it's not a normal disembark because it's forced, but they still get to move after disembarking (unlike refinforcements arriving, who don't move or advance further when they arrive). But, it's still disembarking, so technically they are not arriving on the battlefield via the same special rule - the transport arrives via the special rule, and the models arrive via a disembark forced on them. The disembark rule is different from the reinforcements rule, and drop pod doesn't state that these count as reinforcements.

Things disembarking from a Transport are not reinforcements. As such they don't magically die at the end of turn 3 as BCB likes to claim.

We have here a rules gap when things disembark from something that did arrive from Tactical Reserves/reinforcements. It seems fair to be able to shoot them via a Stratagem such as the one being discussed, but the literal wording doesn't expressly allow it.

As others have said, until FAQ'd talk about it with your opponent before the game and agree a way forward.

I don't know what is the best line of thinking on this.

I do know that most of these things arrive at the end of the movement phase as reinforcements.

Disembarking I believe must happen either at the beginning of the movement phase or is it worded that it happens prior to the transport moving.

Either way the disembark from drop pod is a significant change from how disembark in general works. The timing of it breaks the normal rules.

In my opinion the "immediately" part of the stratagem means you use it before the people embarked disembark.

"During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it, in
orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield.[...]"

The rule doesn't say the contents are Reinforcements, but that isn't noteworthy: it doesn't say the Pod is Reinforcements.

You'd need to check the Reinforcements rules, because that specifies what counts as Reinforcments. I don't recall them verbatim right now.

If it specifies that units that follow rules that set them up on the battlefield later are reinforcements, then that would probably count both. But the specific wording is important.

The point that the rule is on the Pod and not the Tac Squad is silly, unless WWP Fire Dragons and Cloudstrike Serpents aren't considered Reinforcements.

Bharring wrote:
"During deployment, you can set up this model, along with any units embarked within it, in
orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield.[...]"

The rule doesn't say the contents are Reinforcements, but that isn't noteworthy: it doesn't say the Pod is Reinforcements.

You'd need to check the Reinforcements rules, because that specifies what counts as Reinforcments. I don't recall them verbatim right now.

If it specifies that units that follow rules that set them up on the battlefield later are reinforcements, then that would probably count both. But the specific wording is important.

The point that the rule is on the Pod and not the Tac Squad is silly, unless WWP Fire Dragons and Cloudstrike Serpents aren't considered Reinforcements.

"I didn't look up the rules but this is how I think it is."

Maybe you should look up the rules first?

The rule doesn't say the contents are Reinforcements because the rules for Reinforcements detail what reinforcements are. This is like saying the codex doesn't define what Strength means therefore Strength doesn't work (even though the rules cover what it does).

Luckily the battle primer is free.

REINFORCEMENTS
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons (pg 180). Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.

Note that this doesn't include disembarking from a transport. Furthermore the Drop Pod Assault rule gives you special permission to disembark when the Drop Pod arrives since you normally would not be able to do so.

The crux of the matter is that if the unit exiting the Drop Pod counts as reinforcements, then ALL units that arrive in a Wave Serpent count as reinforcements and can be shot at when they disembark, even if it's 3 turns later.

The longer I think about this, the less I believe there is a rules conflict. The crux in my opinion revolves around "must vs may". The strategem "may" be used "immediately after.." - disembarking from the pod "must" be done at the same time. As always; you need to do what the rules tell you to do.

Timing IMHO:

1) Pod arrives from reinforcements
2) Immediately after arrival is now.
2.1) The rules state that the marines "must" disembark "immediately"
3) Marines disembark
4) The stratagem can no longer be used for step 1) as something else has happened since then

Now the question is if step 3 is a new instance of "arrived from reinforcements". The reinforcement rules give clear guidance on that one, I think: "Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn".
The ability to be set-up on the battlefield is linked to the drop pod, not the embarked unit. Yes, the marines were set up "along with the drop pod", but the ability is clear pinned to the pod.
Also, the stratagem can be used to shoot at "that unit" (that arrived from reinforcements). The marines disembarked from a transport, the drop pod even references that rule.

For me the answer is becoming clear: The stratagem cannot be used at all against drop pod drops, due to the required trigger timing being impossible to fulfill.

Johnbox24 wrote:
The longer I think about this, the less I believe there is a rules conflict. The crux in my opinion revolves around "must vs may". The strategem "may" be used "immediately after.." - disembarking from the pod "must" be done at the same time. As always; you need to do what the rules tell you to do.

Timing IMHO:

1) Pod arrives from reinforcements
2) Immediately after arrival is now.
2.1) The rules state that the marines "must" disembark "immediately"
3) Marines disembark
4) The stratagem can no longer be used for step 1) as something else has happened since then

Now the question is if step 3 is a new instance of "arrived from reinforcements". The reinforcement rules give clear guidance on that one, I think: "Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn".
The ability to be set-up on the battlefield is linked to the drop pod, not the embarked unit. Yes, the marines were set up "along with the drop pod", but the ability is clear pinned to the pod.
Also, the stratagem can be used to shoot at "that unit" (that arrived from reinforcements). The marines disembarked from a transport, the drop pod even references that rule.

For me the answer is becoming clear: The stratagem cannot be used at all against drop pod drops, due to the required trigger timing being impossible to fulfill.

Your on to something here but I think this gives us options.

Basically you "may" use the strat on the drop pod right away, or you can wait and then use it on the unit instead but then not the pod.

I think that's hair-splitting and grammar bending that still doesn't answer the OP's question, personally.

Johnbox24 wrote:
The longer I think about this, the less I believe there is a rules conflict. The crux in my opinion revolves around "must vs may". The strategem "may" be used "immediately after.." - disembarking from the pod "must" be done at the same time. As always; you need to do what the rules tell you to do.

Timing IMHO:

1) Pod arrives from reinforcements
2) Immediately after arrival is now.
2.1) The rules state that the marines "must" disembark "immediately"
3) Marines disembark
4) The stratagem can no longer be used for step 1) as something else has happened since then

Now the question is if step 3 is a new instance of "arrived from reinforcements". The reinforcement rules give clear guidance on that one, I think: "Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn".
The ability to be set-up on the battlefield is linked to the drop pod, not the embarked unit. Yes, the marines were set up "along with the drop pod", but the ability is clear pinned to the pod.
Also, the stratagem can be used to shoot at "that unit" (that arrived from reinforcements). The marines disembarked from a transport, the drop pod even references that rule.

For me the answer is becoming clear: The stratagem cannot be used at all against drop pod drops, due to the required trigger timing being impossible to fulfill.

I believe that steps 1-4 as said above would be how this plays out.

Auspex Scan wrote: Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within 12" ...

The drop pod is the unit that is being placed onto the table in this example. It's "payload" does not come into play.

You're still setting up the squad as part of the 'Drop Pod Assualt' rule, even though they are disembarking. You're still processing that rule.

That rule is an "ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means".

You have just "set up" a squad (Tac squad) that was "set up on the battlefield mid-turn" by "ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means" (Drop Pod Assault).

The technicality that the rule is invoking disembarking rules is true, but it is doing so while using the Drop Pod Assault rule. So both are true.

There is an argument (which would apply to WWP Fire Dragons too) that the Tac squad doesn't have the rule. Clearly a RAW argument, and seems like bad faith, but technically potentially correct. But they are reinforcements that just arrived.

 Eihnlazer wrote:



Your on to something here but I think this gives us options.

Basically you "may" use the strat on the drop pod right away, or you can wait and then use it on the unit instead but then not the pod.

You "may" use any stratagem as long as you can fulfill the conditions of it's use. There is no language in those stratagems that say you can wait until a drop pod has it's units disembark to use it.. If you find that I would love to see it.

Bharring wrote:
You're still setting up the squad as part of the 'Drop Pod Assualt' rule, even though they are disembarking. You're still processing that rule.

That rule is an "ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means".

You have just "set up" a squad (Tac squad) that was "set up on the battlefield mid-turn" by "ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means" (Drop Pod Assault).

The technicality that the rule is invoking disembarking rules is true, but it is doing so while using the Drop Pod Assault rule. So both are true.

There is an argument (which would apply to WWP Fire Dragons too) that the Tac squad doesn't have the rule. Clearly a RAW argument, and seems like bad faith, but technically potentially correct. But they are reinforcements that just arrived.

I don't see anything written that tell's us units that disembark from a dedicated transport are counted as reinforcements. I agree that you are still processing the drop pod assault rule, however the Stratagem is effectively an interrupt to that rule, hence letting you shoot the drop pod before the units get out.

In fact if you take note of Bacon's comment on the reinforcement rule.....

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Note that this doesn't include disembarking from a transport. Furthermore the Drop Pod Assault rule gives you special permission to disembark when the Drop Pod arrives since you normally would not be able to do so.

It seems like the argument to have the units inside the drop pod be the target of these stratagems are based on assumptions for things that are not written in the rules. That's not a pandora's box you really want to open in my opinion.

Auspex Scan says "immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements"

Drop Pod Assault describes how to set up these units when you bring them in as reinforcements. It even says, last sentence, "Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain."

The troop inside the drop pod is arriving on the battlefield as a reinforcement.
The troop inside is being set up on the battlefield.

Both conditions for Auspex Scan are fulfilled.

After a turn has passed (Wave Serpent argument), those troops aren't arriving from reinforcements anymore. They've been on the battlefield for a full turn, they are not 'immediately' disembarking out of regular sequence like Drop Pod Assault must do.

 John Prins wrote:
Auspex Scan says "immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements"

Drop Pod Assault describes how to set up these units when you bring them in as reinforcements. It even says, last sentence, "Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain."

The troop inside the drop pod is arriving on the battlefield as a reinforcement.
The troop inside is being set up on the battlefield.

Both conditions for Auspex Scan are fulfilled.

After a turn has passed (Wave Serpent argument), those troops aren't arriving from reinforcements anymore. They've been on the battlefield for a full turn, they are not 'immediately' disembarking out of regular sequence like Drop Pod Assault must do.

Not a single thing you said here has any basis in the rules. Why are you making up some form of "turn limit"? If one unit is reinforcement, so is the one in the Wave Serpent.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It needs errata, but we'll get an FAQ ruling if we get anything at all.

Cleaned it up a bit for you.

Drop Pod Assault isn't explicitly Reinforcements either. You'd need to assume it's one of the 'more esoteric' methods. But lots of assumptions.

Unfortunately, much of 8th ed falls apart when read that technically.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
Auspex Scan says "immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements"

Drop Pod Assault describes how to set up these units when you bring them in as reinforcements. It even says, last sentence, "Any models that cannot be set up because there is not enough room are slain."

The troop inside the drop pod is arriving on the battlefield as a reinforcement.
The troop inside is being set up on the battlefield.

Both conditions for Auspex Scan are fulfilled.

After a turn has passed (Wave Serpent argument), those troops aren't arriving from reinforcements anymore. They've been on the battlefield for a full turn, they are not 'immediately' disembarking out of regular sequence like Drop Pod Assault must do.

Not a single thing you said here has any basis in the rules. Why are you making up some form of "turn limit"? If one unit is reinforcement, so is the one in the Wave Serpent.

I honestly don't know why I'm even bothering to keep fighting this battle, I swore I was gonna stay out of this thread...but...they aren't "making up" some form of turn limit. The point they are making, one that I happen to agree with, is that the entirety of resolving the DPA rule (including disembarking) represents both Drop Pod and unit inside "arriving from reinforcements. So "immediately after" they arrive (which is when Auspex Scan triggers), the unit inside the drop pod can be targeted. The unit inside the Wave Serpent can't be targeted later when they disembark, because the Wave Serpent's rule that allowed it to come in from reinforcements, along with the unit inside, resolved with them still inside. So by the time they can disembark, in a later turn the "immediately after" trigger has already passed. That's not "making up" a "turn limit", that is obeying the stated trigger for the rule.

To go to the point raised above of whether a unit that arrives in a Wave Serpent (or whatever) has arrived from reinforcements and is a valid target for Auspex Scan, well, arguably, YES. The problem is, at the point that the rule that brought them in resolves, they're still in a vehicle, and so can't be affected by other models. The difference is that the unit in a Drop Pod, at the point that the rule that brings them in from reserves resolves, aren't in a vehicle anymore, and can be affected.

It's like if you have a rule "Immediately after shooting". I can't claim that, because you waited until after I rolled my saves, it's no longer "immediately after shooting". Rolling those saves are part of the rule. Even if I reroll because of some unrelated reroll-one roll.

Maybe I'm going off into the woods on this one, but isn't this solved by how transports are treated for deployment? If you put units inside a transport, only the transport counts as a 'drop' for deployment. The passengers exist in some nebulous area that isn't reserves, isn't on the board and doesn't count for deployment purposes.

So the passengers of Drop Pod Assault can't count as reinforcements because they were never deployed into reserves (or high orbit or a teleport field or whatever the rule wants to call it).

Audustum wrote:
Maybe I'm going off into the woods on this one, but isn't this solved by how transports are treated for deployment? If you put units inside a transport, only the transport counts as a 'drop' for deployment. The passengers exist in some nebulous area that isn't reserves, isn't on the board and doesn't count for deployment purposes.

So the passengers of Drop Pod Assault can't count as reinforcements because they were never deployed into reserves (or high orbit or a teleport field or whatever the rule wants to call it).

Except they were. Drop Pod Assault says "you can set up this model, as well as any units embarked on it, in orbit", so the units inside are explicitly deployed into orbit as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It isn't just an assumption because they're in the transport and the transport is in reserve, the rule explicitly puts the unit in reserve as well.

And yet, it doesn't matter because the unit is never put from reserves onto the battlefield.