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Alternate 40k History- say the Emperor had either sided with the Psyker 3 (Magnus, Sanguinius, and the Khan) or censured Magnus but kept the Librarius active and not restricted psykers. What would have changed in the 30k timeline?

Ya know, past Nemiel being pasted by the Lion. No question that wouldn't have happened.

The Emperor might have taken heed of what Magnus had to say after his spirit walk with Horus and mobilised the masses to get to Horus before he was able to bring his brothers to his side. It all went wrong after Nikaea really and the outcome definitely did the Chaos Gods a big favour.

I don't think though that the Emperor would have made any other decision. He wanted rid of Navigators and their ilk and to stop relying on the Warp for travel.

I don't think it would have altered the timeline that significantly but it would have definitely helped change the losses loyalists had against the traitors, especially the Word Bearers. A lot of the psykers that the UM had in their ranks had felt the portents of what was about to come at Calth but suppressed or dismissed it because of their oaths to not use their powers. Had the Librarius not been disbanded, it would have been possible for a greater defence against the myriad warp based attacks utilized by Horus' forces.

Due to the verdict being ignored by most legions anyway, I doubt the time line would change.

The Thousand Sons would remain loyal, that's a pretty big difference.

On the other hand, more people messing around with the warp means a higher chance of daemonic shenanigans and corruption.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The Emperor might have taken heed of what Magnus had to say after his spirit walk with Horus and mobilised the masses to get to Horus before he was able to bring his brothers to his side. It all went wrong after Nikaea really and the outcome definitely did the Chaos Gods a big favour.

I don't think though that the Emperor would have made any other decision. He wanted rid of Navigators and their ilk and to stop relying on the Warp for travel.

Ya know, if the vision of the future Magnus received was sent by Tzeentch, Magnus may have been left in the dark about the coming Heresy and never gone on the spirit walk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luciferian wrote:
The Thousand Sons would remain loyal, that's a pretty big difference.

Might the Space Wolves have been put in a situation, though, where they were alienated from the rest of the imperium (and open to temptation from Horus)? Leman Russ would have been *PISSED* if the Emperor sided with Magnus. Dorn and Corax were at least opposed to Magnus- maybe they would have been a little more open to temptation as well.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The Emperor might have taken heed of what Magnus had to say after his spirit walk with Horus and mobilised the masses to get to Horus before he was able to bring his brothers to his side. It all went wrong after Nikaea really and the outcome definitely did the Chaos Gods a big favour.

I don't think though that the Emperor would have made any other decision. He wanted rid of Navigators and their ilk and to stop relying on the Warp for travel.

Ya know, if the vision of the future Magnus received was sent by Tzeentch, Magnus may have been left in the dark about the coming Heresy and never gone on the spirit walk.

The vision probably was sent by Tzeentch knowing that Magnus couldn't resist trying to prove to his father how great he was and how sorcery could be used for good. If Magnus had not had had a vision and not had visited dad at the palace then the wolves and the Thousand Sons would have been at full strength and a big problem for the traitors.

He wasnt ready to side with the psykers.
They were to be hidden away in the webway, then unleashed on the normos in a new crusade, wiping them out, leaving only the gifted.

If he had of sided with them then. Everyone else wouldve been against him.

IIRC the Dornian Heresy version that B&C came up with a few years ago had Magnus cutting the knot by having his Legion soul-bound to the Emperor like Astropaths.

They remained loyal and it was impossible for anyone say there was any sorcery involved when they're bound to the Emperor like that.

the ancient wrote:
He wasnt ready to side with the psykers.
They were to be hidden away in the webway, then unleashed on the normos in a new crusade, wiping them out, leaving only the gifted.

If he had of sided with them then. Everyone else wouldve been against him.

Could we get an edit of this that puts nouns in place of the pronouns?

I would think not much changes really, as Magnus is really the only traitor primarch who turned do to the rulings. His legion was rather small too, and entered the fight late as well, meaning that Magnus and his sons probably had very little impact on the war. As for the greater impact outside of the Heresy, I have no idea, but Id wager not much would change since we know psykers ended up being used heavily anyways.

In case anyone is wondering, the council of Nikaea's real life counterpart was the council of Nicaea called by the Roman emperor Constantine, in which instead of psykers being expelled by the emperor, the Christian church expelled a particular religious sect called the Arians. Like with Magnus in 40K, the Arians eventually came back to bite the Romans in the ass, as most of the major Germanic tribes who invaded the Western Roman empire and caused it's collapse were indeed Arian Christians.

Just figured Id share because until this point I had never thought about the connections.

Given the falling dominoes after Magnus' spirit-trip to Terra if you take that out of the equation you might get the Legio Custodes more actively involved on the field rather than tied up with (censored because I'm too tired to go look up the spoiler compression format tags right now).

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Might the Space Wolves have been put in a situation, though, where they were alienated from the rest of the imperium (and open to temptation from Horus)? Leman Russ would have been *PISSED* if the Emperor sided with Magnus. Dorn and Corax were at least opposed to Magnus- maybe they would have been a little more open to temptation as well.

I don't think it would have been an angle on Dorn, if he didn't approve of the librarius or trust the Thousand Sons but the Emperor told him that they had some part to play, he would have accepted that. His ambition basically began and ended at being the best tool to realize the Emperor's dream.

Russ, I don't know about. My basic take away from A Thousand Sons was that by way of the wolf priests he tried to use the verdict of Nikaea to monopolize space marine psykers. If the Heresy hadn't happened I feel like he would have suffered some major consequence for doing so.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Due to the verdict being ignored by most legions anyway, I doubt the time line would change.

There wouldnt have been any verdicts to ignore, hadn't it existed in the first place

While fundamentally different concepts, sure, the net result would be identical in my opinion. Psykers have always played a significant, even if repressed, role in the Imperium. The Nikea verdict appears to have no meaningful impact on the time line due to the "business as usual" being similar before and after said verdict.

I won't deny that I may have missed something with more content then an informed trait. This kind of lore is fleshed out by putting together the pieces.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The Emperor might have taken heed of what Magnus had to say after his spirit walk with Horus and mobilised the masses to get to Horus before he was able to bring his brothers to his side. It all went wrong after Nikaea really and the outcome definitely did the Chaos Gods a big favour.

I don't think though that the Emperor would have made any other decision. He wanted rid of Navigators and their ilk and to stop relying on the Warp for travel.

Another possibility is Horus listening to Magnus when he was stabbed by the dagger on Davin. Horus sort of just dismissed Magnus because he broke/was clearly breaking the edicts. Without that... maybe he would have listened? I doubt it, but you never know. Also if Nikaea happened differently then maybe Russ wouldn't have taken Horus' word so quickly that Magnus needed to die, and instead talked things out since Magnus *only* accidently destroyed his Father's project, not blatantly violate his Father's edict AND destroy the web-way project. Assuming Horus still turned, I could see him trying to pull the same trick he did in the real timeline on Russ, so in a way I think it's less what the Emperor does but what Russ does if we assume the only major variable that changed was the edict.

What would have fixed everything is if The Emporer would have gathered all his sons together and explained what he was trying to do before he left the crusade to Horus.

Would have stopped the whole heresy to begin with.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
What would have fixed everything is if The Emporer would have gathered all his sons together and explained what he was trying to do before he left the crusade to Horus.

Would have stopped the whole heresy to begin with.

That wouldnt have helped.
Some kids are just gaks.

The only way things would be different would be, If Magnus didnt wolf apparition it. (that was always a bit weird, and I know its the LW). But he always shouldve ended up on Fenris.
Horus shouldve chosen to die. But he wanted to live. Thats where it started.
Thats the only way to avoid the heresy, atleast for a few years/ decs/ millenniums.
If Sangy got hit with the anathema, he wouldve chosen death.

the ancient wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
What would have fixed everything is if The Emporer would have gathered all his sons together and explained what he was trying to do before he left the crusade to Horus.

Would have stopped the whole heresy to begin with.

That wouldnt have helped.
Some kids are just gaks.

The only way things would be different would be, If Magnus didnt wolf apparition it. (that was always a bit weird, and I know its the LW). But he always shouldve ended up on Fenris.
Horus shouldve chosen to die. But he wanted to live. Thats where it started.
Thats the only way to avoid the heresy, atleast for a few years/ decs/ millenniums.
If Sangy got hit with the anathema, he wouldve chosen death.

It started before Davin. It started with Monarchia.

Thousand Sons being loyalist would actually have changed a lot. It would have meant Horus never tricked the Space Wolves into attacking Prosperous, which means they aren't sent on a wild goose chase and contribute to the fighting. This tips the balance of power away from the traitors as its effectively a 2 legion loss. The Emperor would actually maybe listen to Magnus's warning, or at least there is no warning and there is no warp breach on Terra. Which means the Emperor can concentrate on the traitors.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thousand Sons being loyalist would actually have changed a lot. It would have meant Horus never tricked the Space Wolves into attacking Prosperous, which means they aren't sent on a wild goose chase and contribute to the fighting. This tips the balance of power away from the traitors as its effectively a 2 legion loss. The Emperor would actually maybe listen to Magnus's warning, or at least there is no warning and there is no warp breach on Terra. Which means the Emperor can concentrate on the traitors.

It might also mean Magnus gets no visions to warn the Emperor with.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thousand Sons being loyalist would actually have changed a lot. It would have meant Horus never tricked the Space Wolves into attacking Prosperous, which means they aren't sent on a wild goose chase and contribute to the fighting. This tips the balance of power away from the traitors as its effectively a 2 legion loss. The Emperor would actually maybe listen to Magnus's warning, or at least there is no warning and there is no warp breach on Terra. Which means the Emperor can concentrate on the traitors.

It might also mean Magnus gets no visions to warn the Emperor with.

Correct. However, the Emperor ignored the warning even when Magnus did have them. So really a wash in terms of effects there.

No Warp Breach means the Custodes aren't fighting on two fronts, the Warp breach and the walls of the palace. They can focus on just external defense. And maybe even use the human Webway to launch surprise attacks on the traitors.

The traitors might not even get to Terra as they have to deal with the Wolves and Thousand Sons behind behind them too. It might drag out the heresy until the Emperor can be warned by conventional methods.

Granted, the Emperor likely ignored his warning because he was too angry to think clearly.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thousand Sons being loyalist would actually have changed a lot. It would have meant Horus never tricked the Space Wolves into attacking Prosperous, which means they aren't sent on a wild goose chase and contribute to the fighting. This tips the balance of power away from the traitors as its effectively a 2 legion loss. The Emperor would actually maybe listen to Magnus's warning, or at least there is no warning and there is no warp breach on Terra. Which means the Emperor can concentrate on the traitors.

It might also mean Magnus gets no visions to warn the Emperor with.

Correct. However, the Emperor ignored the warning even when Magnus did have them. So really a wash in terms of effects there.

No Warp Breach means the Custodes aren't fighting on two fronts, the Warp breach and the walls of the palace. They can focus on just external defense. And maybe even use the human Webway to launch surprise attacks on the traitors.

The traitors might not even get to Terra as they have to deal with the Wolves and Thousand Sons behind behind them too. It might drag out the heresy until the Emperor can be warned by conventional methods.

It does put imperial side up to a 10-8 balence. One being a held up legion. The second is now not traitor.

The custodes are able to deploy better yes. This now means the emparors own household can be more active.

Magnus and wolves might be recalled to bolster Terra, as a powerful CC assault force and also the Thousand sons ability might of helped in the way way. Magnus and Russ also would have meant 4 defensive primarchs, plus emparor free to work.

How this effect.
Well magnus power might for example helped prevent the scatter boarding Horus ship etx.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thousand Sons being loyalist would actually have changed a lot. It would have meant Horus never tricked the Space Wolves into attacking Prosperous, which means they aren't sent on a wild goose chase and contribute to the fighting. This tips the balance of power away from the traitors as its effectively a 2 legion loss. The Emperor would actually maybe listen to Magnus's warning, or at least there is no warning and there is no warp breach on Terra. Which means the Emperor can concentrate on the traitors.

It might also mean Magnus gets no visions to warn the Emperor with.

Correct. However, the Emperor ignored the warning even when Magnus did have them. So really a wash in terms of effects there.

No Warp Breach means the Custodes aren't fighting on two fronts, the Warp breach and the walls of the palace. They can focus on just external defense. And maybe even use the human Webway to launch surprise attacks on the traitors.

The traitors might not even get to Terra as they have to deal with the Wolves and Thousand Sons behind behind them too. It might drag out the heresy until the Emperor can be warned by conventional methods.

It does put imperial side up to a 10-8 balence. One being a held up legion. The second is now not traitor.

The custodes are able to deploy better yes. This now means the emparors own household can be more active.

Magnus and wolves might be recalled to bolster Terra, as a powerful CC assault force and also the Thousand sons ability might of helped in the way way. Magnus and Russ also would have meant 4 defensive primarchs, plus emparor free to work.

How this effect.
Well magnus power might for example helped prevent the scatter boarding Horus ship etx.

Again, I think a different verdict may have given Chaos a reasonable chance to corrupt Leman Russ... back at 9v9.

How exactly?

Leman Russ was described as "loyal to a fault". Thats why Horus tricked him into attacking Magnus. He couldn't corrupt Russ to his side, so he needed to distract the guard dogs because he could't take them on with his current forces.

None of that changes if the Wolves don't attack Prospero.

Something that confuses me with the timeline, when is the Daemonology short story set? As the Sigillite tells Mortarion of the planned Council of Nikaea, but it feels like it is many years before it actually happens as the story is set ~70 years in the past? If it was decades before the actual Council happened that at least the Sigillite and probably the Emperor knew that the outcome of the Council of Nikaea was inevitable if they were to achieve the Emperor's desire to move into the webway, and they would have always manipulated the result regardless of the position of the others. Everything the Emperor did was for the sake of the webway, that was his perfect future for Mankind, so everything else would have been secondary and thus sacrificial.

The other thing that bothers me about the 1kSons staying loyal, they all had bound daemons, their Tutelaries long before the Council of Nikaea. Casting out that number of daemons would have been difficult and costly in casualties or left the 1kSons vulnerable in a future battle with the Traitors if they left them in. If that had been discovered that the 1kSons had bound daemons to themselves then likely the Emperor would have ordered exterminatus against them and no need for Horus to trick Russ.

 Grey Templar wrote:
How exactly?

Leman Russ was described as "loyal to a fault". Thats why Horus tricked him into attacking Magnus. He couldn't corrupt Russ to his side, so he needed to distract the guard dogs because he could't take them on with his current forces.

None of that changes if the Wolves don't attack Prospero.

So was Lorgar. How did that work out once the Emperor betrayed him?

I think it wouldn't have made a difference. If anything it would have caused Magnus to wreck the webway project even faster.

just Nikae's outcome to Librarius is semi-allowed. Wouldn't change a lot.

Emps biggest mistake is not taking Magnus with him. Magnus wouldn't have minded and Emps had his untrustworty battery right where he could see.