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I know, heresy. But as I have been looking over and compiling my AM army, I have begun to wonder if First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire is a bit too strong of an order - to the point it's pretty much an autouse.

My main concern is how it seems to overshadow both Grenade Launchers and Flamers. In both cases, a use of FRFSRF is clearly superior to either weapon, giving you 4 shots with FRFSRF vs. the Grenade Launcher's average 3 hits and the Flamer's (auto) average 3 hits.

Should FRFSRF be tweaked in some way? I was considering changing it to a +1 BS (with the idea being it massed fire that is more likely to strike the target) and possibly requiring the unit not move to utilize the order. Is this too much? Is there a better way to handle the order or is it fine as it is (and the GL & Flamer need a tweak)?

I don't think it's a 100% always better order...But it's certainly the default order. Use it every turn, unless something comes up where you need one of the other orders to do a specialized tactic.

Yes the order it is probably too good. But I also think that nerfing it without overnerfing it will be difficult. A bit like the commissar nerf, which was probably necessary but still too severe. Caution is adviced.

Maybe change the order to give one more shot within 18"? This way it would do nothing at 24", it would double damage output from 12"-18" , and would increase damage output by 50% within 12"?

pismakron wrote:
Yes the order it is probably too good. But I also think that nerfing it without overnerfing it will be difficult. A bit like the commissar nerf, which was probably necessary but still too severe. Caution is adviced.

Maybe change the order to give one more shot within 18"? This way it would do nothing at 24", it would double damage output from 12"-18" , and would increase damage output by 50% within 12"?

I personally think -1 to hit on the second volley would work it a bit better, keeping the range.

It only works on lasguns, the worst weapon in the game. Is it REALLY too good? I honestly doubt it.

ThePorcupine wrote:
It only works on lasguns, the worst weapon in the game. Is it REALLY too good? I honestly doubt it.

Hey now, they're tied with Autoguns

I dunno... about half the time lasguns don't do much. Allowing people to double their shot output is a nice tactic to have.

FRFSRF makes troops a lot more useful in Astra Militarum armies. I would hate to see people passing on Guardsmen for a lack of firepower.

I play CSMs and don't have a dog in the fight. AM doesn't actually seem that strong to me, even with the new Codex. Once you get past Celestine and Scions, the bulk of the army goes down to high strength / multi-damage weapons without too much trouble.

Feels like large blobs of models need rules like this to keep the faction from becoming monobuild.

 vaklor4 wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
It only works on lasguns, the worst weapon in the game. Is it REALLY too good? I honestly doubt it.

Hey now, they're tied with Autoguns

No Way!

Sure lasguns recharge for free during sunlight hours....but AutoGuns look way cooler and they make a hecka lot more DAKKADAKKA!

Hands down Autoguns are better!

:

 Stormonu wrote:
My main concern is how it seems to overshadow both Grenade Launchers and Flamers. In both cases, a use of FRFSRF is clearly superior to either weapon, giving you 4 shots with FRFSRF vs. the Grenade Launcher's average 3 hits and the Flamer's (auto) average 3 hits.

I would argue that the problem here is not with FRFSRF but with Grenade Launchers and Flamers.

Grenade Launchers are absolute garbage, and making FRFSRF crap won't change that. A single shot S6 AP-1 Dd3 weapon is beyond niche. I'm not even sure an optimal target for it even exists.

Flamers, though, I think do have a place. They have a shorter range than a rapid-firing lasgun, but S4 makes a difference. So does auto-hitting - especially on Overwatch. Also, there are ways to buff flamers - most notably with the Catachan doctrine. At the very least, I'd argue that there is sufficient reason to take a Flamer over a Lasgun on at least some squads or in some armies.

The Grenade Launcher though is just awful. It really does need a buff of some kind.


Regarding competition between orders, I think it depends what's in the unit. FRFSRF is a good default, sure, but is that unreasonable? It's an order for the unit's standard weapon and basically involves a tactic that's been around since at least the Victorian era. You'd expect it to be pretty standard. However, if a squad has multiple Plasmaguns/Plasma Pistols and/or a Heavy Weapon, I can definitely see Take Aim being preferable (especially with Cadians).

Some of the other orders are pretty niche anyway (e.g. Fix Bayonets). The only one that never seems to see much use is Bring it Down - probably because it's mathematically identical to Take Aim, except that it doesn't help plasmaguns survive.

 Stormonu wrote:
I know, heresy. But as I have been looking over and compiling my AM army, I have begun to wonder if First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire is a bit too strong of an order - to the point it's pretty much an autouse.

My main concern is how it seems to overshadow both Grenade Launchers and Flamers. In both cases, a use of FRFSRF is clearly superior to either weapon, giving you 4 shots with FRFSRF vs. the Grenade Launcher's average 3 hits and the Flamer's (auto) average 3 hits.

Should FRFSRF be tweaked in some way? I was considering changing it to a +1 BS (with the idea being it massed fire that is more likely to strike the target) and possibly requiring the unit not move to utilize the order. Is this too much? Is there a better way to handle the order or is it fine as it is (and the GL & Flamer need a tweak)?

Putting it bluntly? No. The problem that you seem to be getting at is only there for one unit. The unit that gets the best mileage out of First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire is Conscripts.

Guess what Conscripts can't do?
If you said "Take Grenade Launchers or Flamethrowers or any Heavy/Special Weapons", you'd be right!
Veteran, Infantry, and Scion Squads can only ever have what is effectively 90% of the squad outfitted with the Lasgun or Hotshot Lasguns. You don't hear people complaining about Veteran or Infantry Squads toting nothing but Lasguns or Scions toting their basic weapons--which, again, is where FRFSRF comes into play. It's when you start getting into the SuiScions toting Plasma Guns and dropping in to blow their load then get wiped that there's an issue, and those guys don't even necessarily receive an Order to do anything.

There's a lot of reasons why people might not be taking Flamers or Grenade Launchers. Grenade Launchers, for example, are 5 points for a very "Meh" weapon on a BS4+ profile. Flamers are 7 points on a Guardsman. Marines pay 9 points for Flamers and have a far more efficient delivery system that isn't necessarily getting shot to hell and back again.

TLDR version? Flamers are "okay" but the units that have them tend to have better options and Lasguns are fine because FRFSRF never gives you full payout on anything but Conscripts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Regarding competition between orders, I think it depends what's in the unit. FRFSRF is a good default, sure, but is that unreasonable? It's an order for the unit's standard weapon and basically involves a tactic that's been around since at least the Victorian era. You'd expect it to be pretty standard. However, if a squad has multiple Plasmaguns/Plasma Pistols and/or a Heavy Weapon, I can definitely see Take Aim being preferable (especially with Cadians).

Some of the other orders are pretty niche anyway (e.g. Fix Bayonets). The only one that never seems to see much use is Bring it Down - probably because it's mathematically identical to Take Aim, except that it doesn't help plasmaguns survive.

Only time I'll ever run Bring It Down is on my Cadians when I have an Officer with the Laurels of Command and Superior Tactical Training. You can have Take Aim and Bring It Down on Heavy Weapons Squads...but even taking HWS is kind of a "not great idea" to begin with.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Only time I'll ever run Bring It Down is on my Cadians when I have an Officer with the Laurels of Command and Superior Tactical Training. You can have Take Aim and Bring It Down on Heavy Weapons Squads...but even taking HWS is kind of a "not great idea" to begin with.

I think HWSs are okay, so long as you take them with all/mostly cheap weapons (e.g. 2 Mortars and a Lascannon or 3 Heavy Bolters). I wouldn't want to run them with, say, 3 Lascannons though.

 vaklor4 wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
It only works on lasguns, the worst weapon in the game. Is it REALLY too good? I honestly doubt it.

Hey now, they're tied with Autoguns

Nope - Lasguns are better. Autoguns can't FRFSRF.

M.

IMO it was a bigger problem than conscripts were. It certainly is a strong order. Since each company commander can issue two order though - you basically have enough orders to give it to each infantry squad too. So now your whole infantry core has 4 point rapid fire 2 str 3 guns basically all the time. It is pretty clearly absurd. Not sure why the same order can be cast over and over but psychic powers are limited...

 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO it was a bigger problem than conscripts were. It certainly is a strong order. Since each company commander can issue two order though - you basically have enough orders to give it to each infantry squad too. So now your whole infantry core has 4 point rapid fire 2 str 3 guns basically all the time. It is pretty clearly absurd. Not sure why the same order can be cast over and over but psychic powers are limited...

Let's be clear here:
Orders can be applied one time to a unit unless you take a Relic.
If you have an Order on you? It is the only Order you can have applied to you.
Orders also have a 6" radius unless you have a Vox-Caster within 3" of the Officer and a Vox-Caster in the squad that you want to issue the Order to. Vox-Casters are 10 points per squad to extend the radius to 18".

And no, your "whole infantry core" does not have rapid fire 2 S3 guns. Sergeants carry Laspistols, so Infantry Squads are 90% effective compared to Conscripts being 100% effective.
Veterans and Scions are the same way.
Add in any Special or Heavy Weapon Teams and that's another Lasgun down.

Oh, please don't make FRFSRF the next thing to get FAQ'd into the ground.

:p

 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO it was a bigger problem than conscripts were.

That certainly wasn't what came out in the many, many winge-fests about Conscripts.

Indeed, when Conscripts got nerfed to only recieve orders on a 4+, all I heard for about a fortnight afterwards was "Who cares about orders? Orders are completely irrelevant on Conscripts!"

So you'll forgive me if I'm now inclined to raise my eyebrow at FRFSRF being the 'real problem'.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It certainly is a strong order.

It's a strong effect, but tempered by the fact that it's limited to the weakest weapon in the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since each company commander can issue two order though - you basically have enough orders to give it to each infantry squad too.

I can only imagine that you haven't seen many IG lists. Because, no, few (if any) lists include that many Company Commanders. Unless you're talking about lists with just a couple of Infantry Squads, in which case I'd raise my eyebrow about them somehow causing the most damage.

Anyway, assuming your list includes quite a few infantry squads, you'll probably have enough Company Commanders to give about half of them orders. Maybe 2 thirds at a push. There's little point including more CCs than that, since you'll quickly lose Infantry Squads and then you'll be left with 'excess' CCs with no one to order.

 Xenomancers wrote:
So now your whole infantry core has 4 point rapid fire 2 str 3 guns basically all the time. It is pretty clearly absurd.

As above, no, about 1/2 - 2/3 of your infantry has that order at any one time. It might even be a lot less (I've seen more than one list with about 12 Infantry Squads and just 3 Company Commanders). What's more, I notice you're carefully omitting the cost of the Company Commanders from the Infantry they're buffing (the buffs aren't built into those 4pt models). I grant that they're not hugely expensive, but it's still disingenuous. Also, each Infantry Sergeants can't take Lasguns, so at least 1/9 of those models aren't benefiting from the order anyway. 1/5 if the squad has a special weapon.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Not sure why the same order can be cast over and over but psychic powers are limited...

Because only being able to use each order once per turn would be absurd?

"Alright A-Platoon, on my command, Take Aim at-"
"Can't sir."
"What? Why not?"
"Captain Timmel already gave that order to D-Platoon, sir."
"Oh. In that case, get in formation and, when I give the word, First Rank Fire-"
"Can't do that either, sir. I just heard Captain Braum give that same order to his men."
"Oh for crying out loud! Alright, what about Bring it Down? Anyone have a problem with that?"
"No, sir. That one's free."
"Fine. A-Platoon, in position and Bring it Down."
(Much shooting.)
"Good work, men. Now, B-Platoon, it's your turn. Prepare to Bring it Down-"
"Can't, sir. You already gave that order to A-Platoon."
"What? But you're both under my command!"
"Sorry, sir. This comes straight from high command. There's a shortage of orders and so we to conserve them as best we can."
"But . . . surely you mean a shortage of officers?"
"No, sir. It's orders we're short of. They were very specific. Apparently some officers have only been using some, which we're running short of, and neglecting others, which we've now got an excess of. So, each officer has to use a different order for each squad."
+++Company Commander Garn's next words were not recorded but apparently attracted the attention of a nearby Commissar, who felt that Captain Garn had failed to show the appropriate respect to the flawless dictates of High Command+++

Only an issue when Conscripts were getting it automatically.

I too have had Chaos Lords dying in full wounds to two 10 man squads of IG infantry using FRFSRF. And thought-out at the moment "wow, thats some OP gak!".
But is just the emotional reaction at the moment. As Slayer has said, is fine now than conscripts receive orders in a 4+

 Galas wrote:
I too have had Chaos Lords dying in full wounds to two 10 man squads of IG infantry using FRFSRF. And thought-out at the moment "wow, thats some OP gak!".
But is just the emotional reaction at the moment. As Slayer has said, is fine now than conscripts receive orders in a 4+

Infantry Squads can never be two 10 mans benefiting from it. You're looking at, before Special or Heavy Weapons, 18 Lasguns and 2 Laspistols.
Conscripts were the only ones who could get 20 models from it.

Company commanders are 30 points and fill an HQ slot. If you are taking a battalion or a brigade. Taking the required number of HQ's (I think they are the cheapest available HQ option also) gives you enough commanders to frfsrf your whole infantry force. Safe to say guard armies just aren't interested in double firing lasguns because they can do more damage spamming psykers and command russes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I too have had Chaos Lords dying in full wounds to two 10 man squads of IG infantry using FRFSRF. And thought-out at the moment "wow, thats some OP gak!".
But is just the emotional reaction at the moment. As Slayer has said, is fine now than conscripts receive orders in a 4+

Infantry Squads can never be two 10 mans benefiting from it. You're looking at, before Special or Heavy Weapons, 18 Lasguns and 2 Laspistols.
Conscripts were the only ones who could get 20 models from it.

Yeah you are right, but I didn't said that the 20 guardsmen where fyring lasguns, just that my chaos lord died to 20 guardsmen with FRFSRF.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Company commanders are 30 points and fill an HQ slot. If you are taking a battalion or a brigade. Taking the required number of HQ's (I think they are the cheapest available HQ option also) gives you enough commanders to frfsrf your whole infantry force. Safe to say guard armies just aren't interested in double firing lasguns because they can do more damage spamming psykers and command russes.

Or because it doesn't actually work that way?

Infantry, Veteran, and Scion Squads, the three units that hit on better than 5+, can never be 100% Lasgun/Hotshot Lasgun equipped by virtue of the fact Sergeants automatically come with pistols and there is no option to give them the same gun as the rest of the squad.

Also: lol @ "spamming Psykers". The Psyker that makes the most appearance and that can actually do Smite on anything other than a D6 is in the HQ slot...so, how you feel about that "Company Commander spam" now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I too have had Chaos Lords dying in full wounds to two 10 man squads of IG infantry using FRFSRF. And thought-out at the moment "wow, thats some OP gak!".
But is just the emotional reaction at the moment. As Slayer has said, is fine now than conscripts receive orders in a 4+

Infantry Squads can never be two 10 mans benefiting from it. You're looking at, before Special or Heavy Weapons, 18 Lasguns and 2 Laspistols.
Conscripts were the only ones who could get 20 models from it.

Yeah you are right, but I didn't said that the 20 guardsmen where fyring lasguns, just that my chaos lord died to 20 guardsmen with FRFSRF.

Right, but the point I'm making is that FRFSRF didn't matter if they weren't firing Lasguns...so it's kinda weird to mention FRFSRF and Conscripts?

Well, 18 of them were firing lasguns. My point was that FRFSRF is fine

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Company commanders are 30 points and fill an HQ slot. If you are taking a battalion or a brigade. Taking the required number of HQ's (I think they are the cheapest available HQ option also) gives you enough commanders to frfsrf your whole infantry force. Safe to say guard armies just aren't interested in double firing lasguns because they can do more damage spamming psykers and command russes.

Or because it doesn't actually work that way?

Infantry, Veteran, and Scion Squads, the three units that hit on better than 5+, can never be 100% Lasgun/Hotshot Lasgun equipped by virtue of the fact Sergeants automatically come with pistols and there is no option to give them the same gun as the rest of the squad.

Also: lol @ "spamming Psykers". The Psyker that makes the most appearance and that can actually do Smite on anything other than a D6 is in the HQ slot...so, how you feel about that "Company Commander spam" now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I too have had Chaos Lords dying in full wounds to two 10 man squads of IG infantry using FRFSRF. And thought-out at the moment "wow, thats some OP gak!".
But is just the emotional reaction at the moment. As Slayer has said, is fine now than conscripts receive orders in a 4+

Infantry Squads can never be two 10 mans benefiting from it. You're looking at, before Special or Heavy Weapons, 18 Lasguns and 2 Laspistols.
Conscripts were the only ones who could get 20 models from it.

Yeah you are right, but I didn't said that the 20 guardsmen where fyring lasguns, just that my chaos lord died to 20 guardsmen with FRFSRF.

Right, but the point I'm making is that FRFSRF didn't matter if they weren't firing Lasguns...so it's kinda weird to mention FRFSRF and Conscripts?

reread what I said. I said the reason the people aren't doing it is because they are spamming HQ psyches instead. Nothing forces you to take a heavy weapon ether. If you just want to go full lasgun spam - it's perfectly fine. Can't you give a sargent a bolter for 1 point - he wont get to shoot twice but at least he can contribute to your 41 point units nearly 40 shots at 12 inches. (this is a number that elite units put out that cost nearly triple the cost of this unit) Nothing to see here guys. Guard is balanced.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Company commanders are 30 points and fill an HQ slot. If you are taking a battalion or a brigade. Taking the required number of HQ's (I think they are the cheapest available HQ option also) gives you enough commanders to frfsrf your whole infantry force. Safe to say guard armies just aren't interested in double firing lasguns because they can do more damage spamming psykers and command russes.

Or because it doesn't actually work that way?

Infantry, Veteran, and Scion Squads, the three units that hit on better than 5+, can never be 100% Lasgun/Hotshot Lasgun equipped by virtue of the fact Sergeants automatically come with pistols and there is no option to give them the same gun as the rest of the squad.

Also: lol @ "spamming Psykers". The Psyker that makes the most appearance and that can actually do Smite on anything other than a D6 is in the HQ slot...so, how you feel about that "Company Commander spam" now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I too have had Chaos Lords dying in full wounds to two 10 man squads of IG infantry using FRFSRF. And thought-out at the moment "wow, thats some OP gak!".
But is just the emotional reaction at the moment. As Slayer has said, is fine now than conscripts receive orders in a 4+

Infantry Squads can never be two 10 mans benefiting from it. You're looking at, before Special or Heavy Weapons, 18 Lasguns and 2 Laspistols.
Conscripts were the only ones who could get 20 models from it.

Yeah you are right, but I didn't said that the 20 guardsmen where fyring lasguns, just that my chaos lord died to 20 guardsmen with FRFSRF.

Right, but the point I'm making is that FRFSRF didn't matter if they weren't firing Lasguns...so it's kinda weird to mention FRFSRF and Conscripts?

reread what I said. I said the reason the people aren't doing it is because they are spamming HQ psyches instead. Nothing forces you to take a heavy weapon ether. If you just want to go full lasgun spam - it's perfectly fine. Can't you give a sargent a bolter for 1 point - he wont get to shoot twice but at least he can contribute to your 41 point units nearly 40 shots at 12 inches. (this is a number that elite units put out that cost nearly triple the cost of this unit) Nothing to see here guys. Guard is balanced.

71 point unit after you factor in the cost of the Company Commander (61 if it's a Platoon Commander, but that's an Elite slot, not an HQ slot), 36 of those shots being S3. And I'm pretty sure the only people not coughing up a few points to put a heavy weapon in there are people running the Tallarn doctrine or people who just intend to use them for screening. Nothing 'forces' you to take a heavy weapon, but there's very few reasons not to, because a heavy weapon is typically going to be more helpful than a couple of guys with lasguns.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Company commanders are 30 points and fill an HQ slot. If you are taking a battalion or a brigade. Taking the required number of HQ's (I think they are the cheapest available HQ option also) gives you enough commanders to frfsrf your whole infantry force.

3 Mandatory HQs give 6 orders. A Brigade can have 12 Infantry squads. So, no, that's enough FRFSRF orders for half of them. Not all of them.

And that's assuming you fill up on Company Commanders.

Also, given that this is all Company Commanders do (they have no other abilities, they don't bring any meaningful ranged weapons and their melee ability is laughable), is it really a bad thing that they actually bring some decent buffs?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Safe to say guard armies just aren't interested in double firing lasguns because they can do more damage spamming psykers and command russes.

So why are you complaining about FRFSRF instead of those things?

Also, could you perhaps make your mind up about which HQs theyre spamming? Is it Company Commanders? Is it Primaris Psykers? Is it Command Russes? Or are you facing armies of IG that are entirely HQs?

Did I miss something, and Command Tanks became top-tier?

FRF-SRF definitely outshines the other orders. I don't really think this is a problem.


However, compared to Divine Guidance, First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! only works on basic weapons instead of all weapons, but is performed after moving and can be bought at a rate of 2 for 30 instead of a 50% chance of one for 40.

Notably, it turns Lasguns into (IG) Boltguns.

FRFSRF is perfectly fine. Right now it can only be issued to units larger than 10 (ie conscripts) on a 4+, making it largely marginal in impact, unless your opponent really goes to town on Commanders.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Did I miss something, and Command Tanks became top-tier?

FRF-SRF definitely outshines the other orders. I don't really think this is a problem.


However, compared to Divine Guidance, First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! only works on basic weapons instead of all weapons, but is performed after moving and can be bought at a rate of 2 for 30 instead of a 50% chance of one for 40.

Notably, it turns Lasguns into (IG) Boltguns.

They became top tier when russes got the ability to shoot twice. Can't be certain. But I think that was a big factor...you know...shooting twice?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Did I miss something, and Command Tanks became top-tier?

FRF-SRF definitely outshines the other orders. I don't really think this is a problem.


However, compared to Divine Guidance, First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! only works on basic weapons instead of all weapons, but is performed after moving and can be bought at a rate of 2 for 30 instead of a 50% chance of one for 40.

Notably, it turns Lasguns into (IG) Boltguns.

Its hands down better than the other orders. That's okay though?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Company commanders are 30 points and fill an HQ slot. If you are taking a battalion or a brigade. Taking the required number of HQ's (I think they are the cheapest available HQ option also) gives you enough commanders to frfsrf your whole infantry force.

3 Mandatory HQs give 6 orders. A Brigade can have 12 Infantry squads. So, no, that's enough FRFSRF orders for half of them. Not all of them.

And that's assuming you fill up on Company Commanders.

Also, given that this is all Company Commanders do (they have no other abilities, they don't bring any meaningful ranged weapons and their melee ability is laughable), is it really a bad thing that they actually bring some decent buffs?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Safe to say guard armies just aren't interested in double firing lasguns because they can do more damage spamming psykers and command russes.

So why are you complaining about FRFSRF instead of those things?

Also, could you perhaps make your mind up about which HQs theyre spamming? Is it Company Commanders? Is it Primaris Psykers? Is it Command Russes? Or are you facing armies of IG that are entirely HQs?

For something to really be complained about - it has to be the absolute best thing you have in the codex. Am codex being OP all over the place. Most the complaints are about manticores and artillery carriage and those kinds of things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spinner wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Company commanders are 30 points and fill an HQ slot. If you are taking a battalion or a brigade. Taking the required number of HQ's (I think they are the cheapest available HQ option also) gives you enough commanders to frfsrf your whole infantry force. Safe to say guard armies just aren't interested in double firing lasguns because they can do more damage spamming psykers and command russes.

Or because it doesn't actually work that way?

Infantry, Veteran, and Scion Squads, the three units that hit on better than 5+, can never be 100% Lasgun/Hotshot Lasgun equipped by virtue of the fact Sergeants automatically come with pistols and there is no option to give them the same gun as the rest of the squad.

Also: lol @ "spamming Psykers". The Psyker that makes the most appearance and that can actually do Smite on anything other than a D6 is in the HQ slot...so, how you feel about that "Company Commander spam" now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I too have had Chaos Lords dying in full wounds to two 10 man squads of IG infantry using FRFSRF. And thought-out at the moment "wow, thats some OP gak!".
But is just the emotional reaction at the moment. As Slayer has said, is fine now than conscripts receive orders in a 4+

Infantry Squads can never be two 10 mans benefiting from it. You're looking at, before Special or Heavy Weapons, 18 Lasguns and 2 Laspistols.
Conscripts were the only ones who could get 20 models from it.

Yeah you are right, but I didn't said that the 20 guardsmen where fyring lasguns, just that my chaos lord died to 20 guardsmen with FRFSRF.

Right, but the point I'm making is that FRFSRF didn't matter if they weren't firing Lasguns...so it's kinda weird to mention FRFSRF and Conscripts?

reread what I said. I said the reason the people aren't doing it is because they are spamming HQ psyches instead. Nothing forces you to take a heavy weapon ether. If you just want to go full lasgun spam - it's perfectly fine. Can't you give a sargent a bolter for 1 point - he wont get to shoot twice but at least he can contribute to your 41 point units nearly 40 shots at 12 inches. (this is a number that elite units put out that cost nearly triple the cost of this unit) Nothing to see here guys. Guard is balanced.

71 point unit after you factor in the cost of the Company Commander (61 if it's a Platoon Commander, but that's an Elite slot, not an HQ slot), 36 of those shots being S3. And I'm pretty sure the only people not coughing up a few points to put a heavy weapon in there are people running the Tallarn doctrine or people who just intend to use them for screening. Nothing 'forces' you to take a heavy weapon, but there's very few reasons not to, because a heavy weapon is typically going to be more helpful than a couple of guys with lasguns.

Required HQ isn't really part of the equation - considering you have to take the HQ anyways in order to attain the command points (which is the only reason people take troops anyways). Plus they can cast it on 2 units. So it's a 15 point upgrade at the very least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
FRFSRF is perfectly fine. Right now it can only be issued to units larger than 10 (ie conscripts) on a 4+, making it largely marginal in impact, unless your opponent really goes to town on Commanders.

Brigade requires 3 HQ. 3 commanders is the cheapest way to get that. The 6 troops required for a brigade will all have access to orders. Man...If only a farseer could cast guide on all of it's gardians - that would almost be as good as gardians all getting to shoot twice.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Did I miss something, and Command Tanks became top-tier?

FRF-SRF definitely outshines the other orders. I don't really think this is a problem.


However, compared to Divine Guidance, First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! only works on basic weapons instead of all weapons, but is performed after moving and can be bought at a rate of 2 for 30 instead of a 50% chance of one for 40.

Notably, it turns Lasguns into (IG) Boltguns.

They became top tier when russes got the ability to shoot twice. Can't be certain. But I think that was a big factor...you know...shooting twice?


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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Did I miss something, and Command Tanks became top-tier?

FRF-SRF definitely outshines the other orders. I don't really think this is a problem.


However, compared to Divine Guidance, First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! only works on basic weapons instead of all weapons, but is performed after moving and can be bought at a rate of 2 for 30 instead of a 50% chance of one for 40.

Notably, it turns Lasguns into (IG) Boltguns.

Its hands down better than the other orders. That's okay though?

Strictly speaking, that's no longer true.

A Cadian Infantry gunline that isn't moving benefits more from "Take Aim", especially since Cadian warlord trait allows for you to roll a D6 and potentially have two units affected by that Order at the same time...and since Take Aim will affect all weapons rather than just Lasguns it allows for more efficiency for non-Conscript Squads.