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Cawl has been dabbling with tau, eldar, and necron technologies.

He's figured out how to develop psychically active hyper-intelligent servitor machines (dabbling with eldar's psychic circuitry in Dark Imperium) and he's designed new hovercraft models (tau/eldar adaptations?), enhanced bolt rifle models, as well as developed prototype Imperium-tech anti-warp pylons (obviously necron technology).

Do you guys think it's going to bite the Imperium in the ass or is it going to be the salvation they need to stave off the predations of the warp?

Is the Mechanicus going to see a new rift divided by those who innovate (Cawl's new radical faction) vs those who cling to dogma (the conservative group)?

I want to see what the Tau say when they see clearly ripped off design of that Primaris Dreadnought gun that looks like the Ghostkeels. Also how they react to the Imp's own take on hover tech.

I hope we see a schism because of Cawls actions personally, it is a complete volte face on the doctrine that has dominated in the Mechanicum and the wider Imperium for centuries so one would expect some backlash.

The new setting is interesting but strange in that the apocalypse is here and the messiah has returned so you would expect to see an outpouring of faith and an abandonment of worldly pursues like science and industry.
However, in fact the opposite seems to be happening!

 Kroem wrote:
I hope we see a schism because of Cawls actions personally, it is a complete volte face on the doctrine that has dominated in the Mechanicum and the wider Imperium for centuries so one would expect some backlash.

The new setting is interesting but strange in that the apocalypse is here and the messiah has returned so you would expect to see an outpouring of faith and an abandonment of worldly pursues like science and industry.
However, in fact the opposite seems to be happening!

It's because the messiah is telling everyone to work harder, and anyway, in the imperium outpours of faith etc is work harder and longer

People hate Cawl, but with stuff like this he's actually a breath of fresh air. He's borderline heretic, or IS one, and there's nothing Rowboat can do because the guy is necessary to try and help save the Imperium. It's darker than people give credit for.

Isn't Cawl literally 10,000 years old? Who knows what 'lost' technology he has hoarded over that time - or at least that's the story he's going to be telling.

Whatever we see, GW wont be the ones to delve into it. Theyre incapable. Black Library these days always has to clean up after the fluff "team" by providing actualy depth to the background.
If GW themselves decide to expand on it, well, truth is, most of us wont whatever dorection they take because it will be poorly executed.

So if you wanted my answer: maybe it will, but in the end, it wont matter. Chaos will still lose, the Imperium will still own everyone except the tau. GW always feels like the Tau should win for some reason

123ply wrote:
GW always feels like the Tau should win for some reason

Probably because they densely populate a small region of the galaxy with tremendous industrial capacity and a society completely engineered to do what's best for that society. Basically, the Imperium can't afford to throw enough at the Tau to dislodge them, they are too close to their own supply lines. The same goes for any invader in Tau space. The Tau are expanding extremely slowly in 40K terms, and in a well managed, spherical fashion. Assuming they secure all their gains in a similar fashion, they should rapidly become as dangerous as the tyranid hive fleets, as their capacity to expand will grow with every sphere.

If the Tau were acting rationally, though, they'd be turning their home systems into K2 civilizations, but WH40K has problems with scale to begin with.

The Tau are judged by the imperium to not be enough of a threat to really go at them, and by some as an ally/meat shield againgst the Tyranids.

This gives the Tau time to expand their technology. They also get to use the surrounding imperium as a shield of sorts against most threats.

Chaos has almost nothing to do with them.
Necrons don't care about anyone if they aren't fudging with their sleepers for the most part.
Orcs aren't particularly drawn towards their small section of the universe in enough number to threaten them.
Eldar only watch them with the a bit of curiosity, but are otherwise pretty apathetic towards them.


As far as places to live go, being with either the Tau or the Ultramarines home system is probably the best life anyone in the 40k universe can have.





Oh and my opinion on Cawl is that he is probably the most free person in the universe. Able to do and go where he wants for the most part with all the resources he needs to get it done. He's too Important for anyone to fudge with and his deeds have quite possibly saved the imperium so there isn't much of a reason to hate him.

123ply wrote:
Whatever we see, GW wont be the ones to delve into it. Theyre incapable. Black Library these days always has to clean up after the fluff "team" by providing actualy depth to the background.
If GW themselves decide to expand on it, well, truth is, most of us wont whatever dorection they take because it will be poorly executed.

So if you wanted my answer: maybe it will, but in the end, it wont matter. Chaos will still lose, the Imperium will still own everyone except the tau. GW always feels like the Tau should win for some reason

GW's job isn't to 'delve into' fluff. It's to hint at possible depth in new areas via little open-ended fluff snippets so we (and Black Library writers) can fill in that depth as we see fit.

Whether they're doing a good job I can't say. I think they are. Even though I don't like some of the directions they're taking with the added noblebright, I can't argue that their new additions like the Ynnari and Cawl/Primaris/Guilliman hasn't sparked a massive spiral of new implications and neat new ideas that we haven't really thought about before.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
People hate Cawl, but with stuff like this he's actually a breath of fresh air. He's borderline heretic, or IS one, and there's nothing Rowboat can do because the guy is necessary to try and help save the Imperium. It's darker than people give credit for.

It'll be a breath of fresh air when Rowboat finds out that Cawl "accidentally" created new Chapters with traitor geneseed.

 Gamgee wrote:
I want to see what the Tau say when they see clearly ripped off design of that Primaris Dreadnought gun that looks like the Ghostkeels. Also how they react to the Imp's own take on hover tech.

They aren't going to 'say' anything, other than maybe "Yeargh!!!!" right before the *splat*.

I mean, in the grim darkness of the far future, patent infringement lawsuits are non-existent!

I mean, the way I always saw it was:

The Adeptus Mechanicus is quietly tolerant of innovation, and even officially tolerates it in some cases (e.g. the Ordo Reductor, who are given specific mandate to innovate new war machines in dire situations).

I think the former, conservative Fabricator General probably tacitly permitted it (or at least didn't pursue such crimes with the vigour of the Inquisition!), and Cawl, being a radical Fabricator General, is actively covering for the innovators with the Adeptus Mechanicus from the Ordo Machinum and the wider Imperium.

So I think the innovation has always been there, but it was furtive and whispered in the shadows. Cawl just lets it come out into the Light of the Omnissiah where it belongs.

ADDENDUM:

I mean, heck, the Auxilia Myrmidon are supposed to be the sort of 'internal police force' of the Mechanicus who hunt down tech heretics, and even they innovate, at least if you listen to FFG's fluff. So it's a case of "who watches the watchmen?"

Cawl is the Thomas Edison of Warhammer. I'm very, very sure that all of his "Inventions" are just blue-prints from old that he has stolen, or work of his priest that he steals and gives himself credit for.

 Galas wrote:
Cawl is the Thomas Edison of Warhammer. I'm very, very sure that all of his "Inventions" are just blue-prints from old that he has stolen, or work of his priest that he steals and gives himself credit for.

Or work of priests who innovate and could get killed for it, but they know Cawl won't so they're like "publish this and say it's yours so I don't get murdered."

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Cawl is the Thomas Edison of Warhammer. I'm very, very sure that all of his "Inventions" are just blue-prints from old that he has stolen, or work of his priest that he steals and gives himself credit for.

Or work of priests who innovate and could get killed for it, but they know Cawl won't so they're like "publish this and say it's yours so I don't get murdered."

But thats isn't grimdark!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean, the way I always saw it was:

The Adeptus Mechanicus is quietly tolerant of innovation, and even officially tolerates it in some cases (e.g. the Ordo Reductor, who are given specific mandate to innovate new war machines in dire situations).

Apart from at least two Chapter Masters using chaos weapons, I've always assumed that "we found an ancient STC!" is quite often a fig leaf to cover something that might be seen as ... questionable innovation.

I'm honestly waiting for Arkhan Land to come out of the Martian Data Vaults where he disappeared without a trace with just an armful of hard drives.

"Hey guys I found the everything."

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm honestly waiting for Arkhan Land to come out of the Martian Data Vaults where he disappeared without a trace with just an armful of hard drives.

"Hey guys I found the everything."

"What do you mean the STC is mainly porn and cats? I thought it was a comprehensive list of how to make everything..."

"It says it's a comprehensive hard-copy of something called 'the internet', which does seem to be...ahem...somewhat Slaaneshi."

"This bit's different. It's titled 'Youtube Comments..."

"Yeah we looked through that. Pretty sure it's Khornate corruption. Just angry raging really."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
People hate Cawl, but with stuff like this he's actually a breath of fresh air. He's borderline heretic, or IS one, and there's nothing Rowboat can do because the guy is necessary to try and help save the Imperium. It's darker than people give credit for.

And who needs "fresh air" ? I wanted my setting to stay the same good old setting we knew and loved. Nothing had to move.

 Gamgee wrote:
I want to see what the Tau say when they see clearly ripped off design of that Primaris Dreadnought gun that looks like the Ghostkeels. Also how they react to the Imp's own take on hover tech.

This have already been discussed, and dismissed with photographic evidences (or was it on another forum ?) when they realised it. This weapon is 100% Imperium designed.

Dabbling in Xeno Technology?!

Eihnlazer wrote:As far as places to live go, being with either the Tau or the Ultramarines home system is probably the best life anyone in the 40k universe can have.

Did Tau keep their "Human Auxilia" in later editions? I always thought that was an interesting take on "Traitor Guard" - if it had been better expanded beyond that one little PDF for Troops and (I think) one Elite, I'd have been sorely considered to run one...

Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Cawl is the Thomas Edison of Warhammer. I'm very, very sure that all of his "Inventions" are just blue-prints from old that he has stolen, or work of his priest that he steals and gives himself credit for.

Or work of priests who innovate and could get killed for it, but they know Cawl won't so they're like "publish this and say it's yours so I don't get murdered."

But thats isn't grimdark!

It's Grimdark if you're the other guy!

M.

I hope there's a schism going on, maybe a good start to launch a full Dark Mechanicum range of models and rules. I don't like Cawl at all, his fluff is ridiculous (yes sure a 10.000 old regular human, while there barely are Techpriests exceeding centuries old) and he totally broke the AdMech codex since its launch back in V7. I really dislike new characters coming out of the blue and doing all kind of miracles everywhere, give it a little time damn, there's a thing called character development that GW has failed to master.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm honestly waiting for Arkhan Land to come out of the Martian Data Vaults where he disappeared without a trace with just an armful of hard drives.

"Hey guys I found the everything."

You know crawl is missing large parts of his memory, he might be Arkham Land he just lost the hard drive he kept his name on

 LexOdin9 wrote:
Cawl has been dabbling with tau, eldar, and necron technologies.

He's figured out how to develop psychically active hyper-intelligent servitor machines (dabbling with eldar's psychic circuitry in Dark Imperium) and he's designed new hovercraft models (tau/eldar adaptations?), enhanced bolt rifle models, as well as developed prototype Imperium-tech anti-warp pylons (obviously necron technology).

Do you guys think it's going to bite the Imperium in the ass or is it going to be the salvation they need to stave off the predations of the warp?

Is the Mechanicus going to see a new rift divided by those who innovate (Cawl's new radical faction) vs those who cling to dogma (the conservative group)?

Even during the Heresy-era, Cawl was considered something of a radical. And this was during a time when the Mechanicus was willing to do a bit of innovation and incorporate alien technologies.


The truth is that while there will be some public bitching among more orthodox elements of the Mechanicus, I don't see a schism ever coming about. It's pretty much been established that the Mechanicus will bend it's own rules when necessary, or when it wants to for whatever reason. Instead, I see a bunch of cogboys getting all giddy because they get to play with new toys. The only thing I can see the Priesthood not bending on will be Cawl's dabbling into artificial intelligence. That's always been a big no-no, even before the Imperium even came about.

probably because humanity was almost wiped out by "the Iron Men" which were sentient robots we built whom revolted.

Another interesting tidbit if you read into Cawl's story is that he's essentially cloned his mental patterns so he can be in multiple places, doing multiple things, at the same time.

He's merged his consciousness with AI consciousnesses and who can say where Cawl the AI begins and Cawl the human ends?

In any case, every faction should have their special characters. If you don't want Cawl in the rules, you are gonna have to cut Guilliman, Magnus, Abbadon, Celestine, Mortarion, Farsight, Eldrad, the list goes on. They have no more right to be the Mary Sues of their faction than Cawl does to his.

Lastly, I like that they're giving Cawl these important roles in the story with respect to working on counter-measures against Chaos. It allows for Chaos "turn the knob to 11" with their incursions into realspace and we can get more of the feeling of the doomsday clock ticking.

 LexOdin9 wrote:

In any case, every faction should have their special characters. If you don't want Cawl in the rules, you are gonna have to cut Guilliman, Magnus, Abbadon, Celestine, Mortarion, Farsight, Eldrad, the list goes on. They have no more right to be the Mary Sues of their faction than Cawl does to his.

You can have a special character with the Adeptus Mechanicus without making him go against the concept of the faction (largely resisting significant technological progress due to a belief in past technology being superior and safer) and retconning the fluff that says humans can't live forever. Where are all the other ten thousand year old techpriests.

Cawl is just a bad character for the setting because he breaks too many rules of his faction.

Also Mary Sue was the wrong term to use there.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 LexOdin9 wrote:

In any case, every faction should have their special characters. If you don't want Cawl in the rules, you are gonna have to cut Guilliman, Magnus, Abbadon, Celestine, Mortarion, Farsight, Eldrad, the list goes on. They have no more right to be the Mary Sues of their faction than Cawl does to his.

You can have a special character with the Adeptus Mechanicus without making him go against the concept of the faction (largely resisting significant technological progress due to a belief in past technology being superior and safer) and retconning the fluff that says humans can't live forever. Where are all the other ten thousand year old techpriests.

Cawl is just a bad character for the setting because he breaks too many rules of his faction.

Also Mary Sue was the wrong term to use there.

He's the most interesting character I've seen from the AdMech yet. Even Arkhan Land seems kind of boring, to be honest.

The dogmatic rules of his faction make for a ton of GrimDerp techpriests that can't screw in a lightbulb without canting the Canticle of 6-Pi Rotation.

Also, the rules of the Imperium are just begging to be broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

goundry wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm honestly waiting for Arkhan Land to come out of the Martian Data Vaults where he disappeared without a trace with just an armful of hard drives.

"Hey guys I found the everything."

You know crawl is missing large parts of his memory, he might be Arkham Land he just lost the hard drive he kept his name on

Also, we know this is probably not the case since Guilliman knows his name to be Belisarius Cawl when he commissioned the Armor of Fate (or whatever it's called) some 10,000 years ago.

 LexOdin9 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

goundry wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'm honestly waiting for Arkhan Land to come out of the Martian Data Vaults where he disappeared without a trace with just an armful of hard drives.

"Hey guys I found the everything."

You know crawl is missing large parts of his memory, he might be Arkham Land he just lost the hard drive he kept his name on

Also, we know this is probably not the case since Guilliman knows his name to be Belisarius Cawl when he commissioned the Armor of Fate (or whatever it's called) some 10,000 years ago.

Well that dont mean nothing. Land was on terra long before papi turned up. He couldve had a brain aneurzym and got put in a bot body. More likely he was taking readings, and got splatted.
Guilliman dont know gak what goes on on terra.

Why should Cawl be Land? What purpose does that serve?