Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Let me start with: I don't have the codex/BRB yet. I have the Index and have most of the updated points, but I'm not in a position to purchase the codex and start building for another week or so. That said, I am going to be building a CC oriented CWE army as soon as I get home. I am definitely going to be bringing 9 Spears, whether one big unit or three min sized. Other units that I love are Scorpions (have infiltrate) and Wraithblades (Swords). I will definitely be bringing a unit or two to drop and I was going to get the consensus opinions from the group:

Guardian Defenders - 190 for 20x + 2 Shuriken Cannons
- Large unit with good amount of firepower. Benefits from buffs well and has decent survivability with platforms and potentially stratagems.

Storm Guardians - 168 x 24
- Something I would MUCH prefer as I love the models/concept over defenders, but is this viable? They are putting out half as much firepower, but can be significantly better if you get shots + charge yes?

Windriders - 9x (don't have exact point cost available)
- Could this take the place of Guardians or Stormies? Put out good firepower with their catapults at 12" but they will cost more and go down easier not having stratagems yes?

Fire Dragons - 240 for 10x
- Obvious damage on the drop, but very little survivability afterwards. By my math, they will do more Damage than same points cost Wraithcannon Wraithguard. Seems a guaranteed kill on a vehicle without Quicken, with you can splitfire.

Wraithguard - 400 for 10x or 450 for 10x
- Without buffs, expecting Wraithcannons to put out 13+ damage on a single target assuming average rolls. Can weather the re-attack much better. D-Scythe aren't going to be able to shoot without Quicken and would most likely be first priority for enemy shooting.

Spears - 280 for 9x
- Risky charge but I'm happy to use Saim-Hann with the nerf to Ynnari to help out. Also prefer to keep them on the board.

Wraithblades - 350 for 10x
- I'd love for this to be viable. Can they even make the charge without support? Does Saim-Hann affect these guys? Outside of Quicken, any way to get them that 9" charge more reliably?

I'm trying to make a purchase to have waiting for me when I get home. I'm picturing a core of 9x Shining Spears, one max unit of Guardians/Stormies and one max unit of the above in the enemy's face, backed up by a unit of Scorpions or two, Dark Reapers and some HQ.

With the list expecting to have one large unit of troops drop in, what would you recommend to drop with them?

Your summary is pretty good overall, you have identified the strengths and weaknesses of the best candidates for Webwaying in. A lot of time the "best" option will depend on how much you are willing to invest in supporting the unit that deploys this way.

Guardians do not need much help in themselves but Dooming their target makes a big difference to their kill rate.

I would not go for a CC unit or D-scythes as you really need Quicken to make these units work and if you fail (or get denied) they can be useless. If you are playing Ynnari, Word of the Phoenix gives you another chance to move them after they deploy so this is the best approach if you really want one of these units. All Saim Hann units can reroll failed charges so this is some to consider for Shining Spears, Wraithblades and other CC units.

Fire Dragons and Wraithguard both excel at hitting hard targets. Remember that Wraitguard shoot at S10 while Dragons will be outside the 6" range for bonus melta damage. This means that Wraithguard are almost as killy as Dragons. Wraithguard are also far tougher with 3 T6 wounds each instead of 1 T3 wound. If Dragons get charged, they are pretty much useless. If Wraithguard get charged they will usually be able to weather the attacks and then withdraw and still shoot in your next turn thanks to their "Implacable Advance" special rule.

If I was dropping in just 1 unit, I would probably take either Wraithguard with Cannons or Guardians depending on whether I wanted to kill infantry or tanks.

Remember that you do not have to decide until you are deploying which unit will go in the webway. If you wait until your opponent has deployed most of his army, you can then decide who would beenfit most from the Webway stratgem.

Agreed with Karhedron. The Webway can be very situational and very matchup dependent.

Guardians are a great option in which efficiency can be greatly enhanced. For Ulthwe', use a stratagem giving them +1 to hit (2+ roll to hit effectively) and have an Autarch get within 6" to reroll '1' to hit rolls. Cast Doom for rerolls to wound and I think this output can catch some folks offguard.

If you go Biel Tan, you can get the reroll '1' to hit with Shuriken and cast Doom for reroll to wound. Still very good without utilizing an Autarch.

I've used the 10 Wraithguard (and 5 Wraithguard) and it is extremely situational. Against Admech or fully mechanized Imperial Guard, it was invaluable as there was very little way for my opponents to counter it.

I'm building my Storm Guardians now, but don't plan to use them in the Webway. They will be my bubble wrap unit and I'll use my Guardian Defenders as the Webway drop (or Wraithguard). The Guardian Defenders will get the shots off and (I think) will allow the Storm Guardians to move up without getting shot off the table. There is a stratagem that counts an advance move as 6", no need to roll. That can help get the Storm Guardians into position quickly.

However, for big blocks of Guardians, you need to consider Morale. I currently run Alaitoc and my Warlord has Puritanical Leader Warlord Trait. Or, you can use Iyanden Craftworld or even an Avatar. There are a lot of options which is a big reason I really like this codex.

Good luck.

Morale is a big issue for large Guardian blobs. If you do not want to use an army-specific feature, you always have the option of spending 2 CPs to auto-pass the morale test.

Personally I am working on a list using banshees, the avatar of Kaine, and the Beil-tan stratagem "Court of the young king". Kinda expensive, and situational, but if it works I get to drop banshees in front of my avatar and have them charge with +6" to their charge range. That mean unless I roll double ones I should get in, but I also need to drop near the avatar so it's placement on the field will matter.

I was working on the rest of the list last night. With the gameplan of 24x Stormies, 10x Wraithblades, and 9x Shining Spears as the core, I fit in a Autarch Skyrunner with the Saim Hann relic lance, and a min unit of Scorpions with claw. This runs me only 1000 points, leaving me plenty of room to get more troops, Spirit Seers, Dark Reapers, and a Farseer.

I'm still tempted to run Ynnari in a detachment to get some Harlequins in there. I'm not sure what else to put in the detachment though as I don't have the stratagems in front of me. Thinking the Wraithblades or Storm Guardians so I can get the maximum benefit out of a "Fight" soulburst if the Dark Reapers go down. I guess I'm still a bit confused as to the overall Warlord aspect from a Ynnari faction. I would lose the ability to take any of the CW traits right? I would only gain access to stratagems with this gameplan?

I appreciate all the input and I feel pretty comfortable with this game plan. I realize the Wraithblades and Storm Guardians aren't the ideal, but I look forward to the time the drop+charge works and I'll take the pain when it doesn't work out.

Well the times I have used Storm Guardians...the math always work out well, but you have to have the right target and even if you do you will get stuck 1 in 8 times even with all the rerolls.

Think about this.

1 Wave Serpent with spirit stones vectored engines and star engines and Alaitoc.

Move the WS at 16" plus 2d6 advance with -2 to hit from over 12" and you should be able to move 23" or so.

Now use the WebWay Portal to drop in 10 Fire Dragons....Shoot and melt stuff....then use Fire and Fade and move them within 3" of the Wave Serpent and Embark back into the Wave Serpent.

I'm pretty sure this is legal....as you did not Disembark AND embark on the same turn.

Now your dragons have a good deal of protection.

Azuza001 wrote:
Personally I am working on a list using banshees, the avatar of Kaine, and the Beil-tan stratagem "Court of the young king". Kinda expensive, and situational, but if it works I get to drop banshees in front of my avatar and have them charge with +6" to their charge range. That mean unless I roll double ones I should get in, but I also need to drop near the avatar so it's placement on the field will matter.

I'm afraid codex Banshees have to advance before the charge to get their inbuild +3 bonus, making the webway a little bit less interesting for them.

 Bego wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Personally I am working on a list using banshees, the avatar of Kaine, and the Beil-tan stratagem "Court of the young king". Kinda expensive, and situational, but if it works I get to drop banshees in front of my avatar and have them charge with +6" to their charge range. That mean unless I roll double ones I should get in, but I also need to drop near the avatar so it's placement on the field will matter.

I'm afraid codex Banshees have to advance before the charge to get their inbuild +3 bonus, making the webway a little bit less interesting for them.

Yes, I also recently noticed this, so that means to work I need a warlock there as well for Quicken, that way they can advance so they can charge getting them out of avatar range, makes it much harder to do.

So I have to have things lined up proper, warlock in the back, avatar around 9" in front of it, drop banshees in behind avatar and in range of Quicken, then Quicken to be just inside 6" range of avatar on other side of him so to get the 6"+d6 charge. Not an easy setup, probably easier to just have them on the field to begin with, but I think I will still try it in a friendly game to see what it looks like. Who knows, may be good for a laugh.

I don't trust a 9" charge so my choice for this strategem is wraithguard with cannons. 10 seems too many though so I would think 6-7 more optimal. You can always use Fire and Fade to drop back a little after shooting too if the counter strike seems nasty. Guardians also good but you have to think about your 12" max range and dropping outside of 9"....may not get all in range.
Another nod for wraithguard is that if you take 7 or more, it's something you could not do with a wave serpent (unlike dragons).

 bullyboy wrote:
I don't trust a 9" charge so my choice for this strategem is wraithguard with cannons. 10 seems too many though so I would think 6-7 more optimal.

Depends on what you are shooting them at. 10 WG will put an average of 16 wounds on a tank or MC. Overkill for dealing with a Predator/Dread, perfect for one-shotting a Land Raider, insufficient for dropping a Primarch. If you take 10, you always have the option of splitting your fire if you are confident you can kill your primary target with 6-7 shots.

Webway strike has some amazing potential, but it can be countered so I would caution against investing too many points in it.

Assuming you want to take a unit specifically for a webway strike I would say the following:

10 Webway striking Wraithguard is a bad idea. If your fighting against 3 baneblades with no infantry support great! If you are fighting any "normal" list you can't count on them to be more than a very expensive distraction. Any half decent opponent will screen expensive vehicles/monsters once they know the wraithguard are in reserve. Even a fully mech list can screen their main battle tanks with cheap transports. As Eldar I would not mind 10 Wraithguard serving themselves up on a plate to kill a Wave Serpent that costs less than half what they do. Now, you could hold them in reserve until your opponent exposes a tasty target but you're 400pts down until that happens.

Assault units are even worse. An expensive assault unit has the same problems with screens but can also fail to do anything even if your opponent does nothing to counter them. Relying on Quicken, court of the young king or Saim Hann reroll charges is just not a safe bet.

If you are taking a unit specifically for webway striking then it needs to be cheap enough that it cannot be countered cost effectively. 20 Guardian defenders are great for this. At 160pts you can drop them in and have a shot at whatever is available/ grab an objective/ just get in the way/ hold them back in reserve etc. and not feel like it's a wasted investment. You can buff them up with guide, doom, Celestial shield, Fire and fade, or just drop and forget.


Now, you don't have to build your list around Webway Strike to make good use of the stratagem. 10 Wraithguard on foot is not a unit you would take normally, but 6-8 Fire Dragons in a Wave serpent is, and they can make great use of WWS if the opportunity presents itself. Against a list that isn't able to screen its big targets efficiently, you can Webway in the Dragons and then use fire and fade to hide/ hop into their Serpent.
You might also want to use the stratagem simply to keep units off the board to avoid Alpha strikes. If you have 9 Shining Spears and find yourself facing a gunline on a table without much LOS blocking terrain, then WWS might be a good defensive option.


TL,DR: Guardian Defenders is where it's at.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
10 Webway striking Wraithguard is a bad idea. If your fighting against 3 baneblades with no infantry support great! If you are fighting any "normal" list you can't count on them to be more than a very expensive distraction. Any half decent opponent will screen expensive vehicles/monsters once they know the wraithguard are in reserve. Even a fully mech list can screen their main battle tanks with cheap transports.

Overall this isn't bad advice, but keep in mind that not every army has access to cheap screens or fully meched with transports. Even the ones that do have these unit can be thinned out on turn 1 so that you make a spot for a turn 2 drop.
10 WG is probably a bad idea, but 5-6 is a very sweet drop that is likely to change the game in your favor.

-

5-6 With a Wave serpent for when you're better off saving your command points than dropping in would be good.

 Bego wrote:

I'm afraid codex Banshees have to advance before the charge to get their inbuild +3 bonus, making the webway a little bit less interesting for them.

Damnit, I hadn't noticed that!

 Galef wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
10 Webway striking Wraithguard is a bad idea. If your fighting against 3 baneblades with no infantry support great! If you are fighting any "normal" list you can't count on them to be more than a very expensive distraction. Any half decent opponent will screen expensive vehicles/monsters once they know the wraithguard are in reserve. Even a fully mech list can screen their main battle tanks with cheap transports.

Overall this isn't bad advice, but keep in mind that not every army has access to cheap screens or fully meched with transports. Even the ones that do have these unit can be thinned out on turn 1 so that you make a spot for a turn 2 drop.
10 WG is probably a bad idea, but 5-6 is a very sweet drop that is likely to change the game in your favor.

-

So someone please correct me if I cheated here, but I believe this is copacetic.

I've been playing a Ynnari/Craftworld Army and typically deploy 7-8 Ynnari Wraithguard with D-scythes via WEBWAY STRIKE and then use FIRE AND FADE to move them an additional 5" closer to a prime target which gets them right into perfect SfD range.

I haven't seen this done before but wasn't able to find anything that makes this an illegal move.

My understanding is that FIRE AND FADE "You can use this Strategem after a friendly Asuryani unit shoots in your Shooting Phase (doesn't specify that the unit you want to move has to be the unit that shot). If you do so, the unit can immediately move 7" (I've only been moving 5" due to the 'as if it were the movement phase verbiage') as if it were the Movement phase (it cannot Advance as part of this move).

However, it cannot charge in the same turn that it does so."

Could also use this strategy with 8-10 Fire Dragons for ~200 - 240ish points and have them reliably erase things from the board that are typically worth 100-200 points more than their value for 2 CP.

Using this with Wraithguard however, I've been able to clear a Guillman screen and SfD into him to reduce him to 3 wounds and allowed Illic to hit the walk off. Very effective for transports and cargo inside and finishing off high-value targets. I usually pair this strategy with a 7-9 Ynnari <Biel-Tan> or <Saim Hann> Shining Spear squad w/exarch for additional support. When I use Biel-Tan, will also deploy them via the Webway in conjunction with the Wraithguard and then invoke COURT OF THE YOUNG KING to add 2 to my charge roll which makes a charge from the Webway a typical 7" manageable range (can burn another CP to ensure you make the charge) and buffs them with re-rolls in the fight phase.

This is a heavy CP investment but the few times I've had the first turn and used these strategies, it's been absolutely devastating for my opponent. It also allows flexibility if you don't go first, as high priority units are in serpents or off the board leaving mostly rangers or difficult to kill targets like hemlocks, serpents, rangers, or smaller 3 man units of spears or reapers as the only viable targets Turn 1.

I've actually been preferring to use <Saim Hann> Spears in my own deployment zone as they can move 16" advance 6" w/ RIDE THE WIND, hit them with a Quicken (preferable) or Word of the Phoenix for an additional potential 22" movement and with WARRIORS OF THE RAGING WINDS, it allows the unit to charge in the same turn it advances and also rerolls of 1 in the Fight Phase. This has allowed me to get over types of screens into more desirable targets and use the lances in shooting as well (it's also 1 CP less but carries a little more risk as they are board deployed). I find this more preferable because my opponent is typically stuck between doubling back to deal with the Wraithguard or moving forward to deal with 8-9 Spears.

Couple this with a Hemlock or two in their backfield, a bunch of smiting psykers behind rangers or Dire Avengers, support from a wave serpent or two (will typically have a combination of 1/2 Hemlock or 1/2 Wave Serpents - still trying to figure out the sweet spot and what works best) and fire support from 15 Reapers it creates all sorts of prioritization issues for opponents.

Again, there could be something that nullifies all of this that I haven't seen or no one has pointed out to me yet but I've found these to be effective.

I smell necromancy

So your doing weird things with words.

First the clear one:

You are more or less right that the wraight guard can only move up to thier max movement characteristic which is 5"

However, you're using the targeting rule in currectly.
The stratagem never says you get to pick what unit to move. Instead it refers to only one unit, and that is the last unit that shot in your shooting phase (or really any). As "the unit" refers only to a something specific, and something mentioned before and the only thing mentions before is a unit that has shot.

However fire and fade can still be used to activate SfD you just have to have a 2nd unit activate them. So you shoot with the wraith guard. Then Fire and Fade the unit up. Then you're second unit kills something that you Fire and faded into range of. Then you can SfD.

mmimzie wrote:
I smell necromancy

So your doing weird things with words.

First the clear one:

You are more or less right that the wraight guard can only move up to thier max movement characteristic which is 5"

However, you're using the targeting rule in currectly.
The stratagem never says you get to pick what unit to move. Instead it refers to only one unit, and that is the last unit that shot in your shooting phase (or really any). As "the unit" refers only to a something specific, and something mentioned before and the only thing mentions before is a unit that has shot.

However fire and fade can still be used to activate SfD you just have to have a 2nd unit activate them. So you shoot with the wraith guard. Then Fire and Fade the unit up. Then you're second unit kills something that you Fire and faded into range of. Then you can SfD.

Well label me a cheater!


Reading through the other stratagems, the qualifier of "a friendly unit" instead of "a unit" or "your unit" and the article after the qualifier, is what is throwing me off a bit.

Qualifier of "You can use this Stratagem after a friendly ASURYANI unit shoots in your shooting phase. If you do so, the unit can immediately move 7" as if it were the Movement phase ...." If it was consistent with other stratagems that require you to use the stratagem based upon a qualifier it should read "Use this stratagem if (or after) an ASURYANI unit shoots in your shooting phase. If you do so, THAT unit can .... "

Perhaps they qualified the friendly ASUYRANI unit if perhaps an opponent's ASURYANI unit somehow fired in your shooting phase? I can't think of any instances where that could possibly happen other than pre-Ynnari nerf.

it seems that there are more definite articles they could have chosen to be consistent with the other stratagems as well: "That unit", "if you choose to do so, IT can " "Use this Strategem when an Asuryani unit is chosen to attack in the Fight Phase", "THAT model", "THAT psyker", and a few other examples.

I believe your explanation is correct and will send some apology letters in the mail. Thanks!

 wannabmoy wrote:

mmimzie wrote:
I smell necromancy

So your doing weird things with words.

First the clear one:

You are more or less right that the wraight guard can only move up to thier max movement characteristic which is 5"

However, you're using the targeting rule in currectly.
The stratagem never says you get to pick what unit to move. Instead it refers to only one unit, and that is the last unit that shot in your shooting phase (or really any). As "the unit" refers only to a something specific, and something mentioned before and the only thing mentions before is a unit that has shot.

However fire and fade can still be used to activate SfD you just have to have a 2nd unit activate them. So you shoot with the wraith guard. Then Fire and Fade the unit up. Then you're second unit kills something that you Fire and faded into range of. Then you can SfD.

Well label me a cheater!


Reading through the other stratagems, the qualifier of "a friendly unit" instead of "a unit" or "your unit" and the article after the qualifier, is what is throwing me off a bit.

Qualifier of "You can use this Stratagem after a friendly ASURYANI unit shoots in your shooting phase. If you do so, the unit can immediately move 7" as if it were the Movement phase ...." If it was consistent with other stratagems that require you to use the stratagem based upon a qualifier it should read "Use this stratagem if (or after) an ASURYANI unit shoots in your shooting phase. If you do so, THAT unit can .... "

Perhaps they qualified the friendly ASUYRANI unit if perhaps an opponent's ASURYANI unit somehow fired in your shooting phase? I can't think of any instances where that could possibly happen other than pre-Ynnari nerf.

it seems that there are more definite articles they could have chosen to be consistent with the other stratagems as well: "That unit", "if you choose to do so, IT can " "Use this Strategem when an Asuryani unit is chosen to attack in the Fight Phase", "THAT model", "THAT psyker", and a few other examples.

I believe your explanation is correct and will send some apology letters in the mail. Thanks!

actually <.< http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/that?s=t or for an example of this exact use of the word "the x"

If you introduce a word with a or an, you may use the anytime thereafter because the introduction has made both the speaker/writer and listener/reader familiar with the word. Here's an example:

Sarah bought a book yesterday. She read the first three pages when she got home and decided to return the book because it was boring.

source https://www.scribendi.com/advice/using_articles_a_an_the.en.html

Or in other words if you set up a specific thing with "a ______ _____" you can simplify it shortly after with just "the X"

The most reliable way of having a unit charge anywhere on the battlefield after a webway strike is using the Saim Hann attribute in conjunction with a Spiritseer with the Shifting Vector warlord trait and Quicken psychic power. I think that gives the charge around a 90% chance of success.

Just a general note on Eldar close combat armies - you will still get mulched by more dedicated melee forces like Orks, Nids, Genestealer Cults, Daemons, Bezerkers and the new Custodes. I'd make sure not to neglect firepower too much if you want a take all comers list.

I use it to protect 10 dark reapers from alpha strike, webway in next to a farseer for forewarned next turn if you manage to get first turn.

I'd play Eldar more as a shooty army since there are better cc units out there in the 40k universe.
I think that 20 Guardians can be a shock and awe unit if its buffed correctly. After all,its an expendible unit.
I would send other units in like the precious Fire Dragons if the situation would afford it.