Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

To keep stuff brief, my friends frankly told me I play minmaxing and its unfun to fight my army. Im not gonna get into their inability to read the new 8th rules or the fact one of them plays AM, but is Khorne Daemons + WE meta? Am I cheese for playing that combo? Im asking honestly and not rehotricaly, because as a newer player I simply picked the army up because it looks cool.

No one can answer this for you.

Are these real friends or people you occasionally game with? That should be your first indication. If they're people you're occasionally gaming with and they're just being whiny because you win on occasion that's one thing.

If they're actual friends? They may be on to something.

Perhaps. Do you easily curbstomp other players? Or do you give them a hard time at winning?

The first option mught be TFG-y because the other guys rather play fun lists, instead of optimized ones. If it's the second... they're just lazy and want easy wins

That's not a lot of info to go on, but the general idea is that playing an army you enjoy does not make you TFG.

The grey areas get into where you deliberately a strong army in a very weak meta and stomp everyone repeatedly (likewise, the opposite is equally true).

TFG is any behaviour that is socially unacceptable. Winning a few games with a strong list isn't TFG. Winning every game with the same strong list repeatedly despite people calmly asking you to tone your list down would be TFG behaviour.

Its so weird having to discuss social behaviour on a forum. Just don't be dicks to people. A list isn't an indicator of being TFG on its own. Context is important and every social situation is very different.

I guess you abused the melee rules to the max and they're salty about it. Tell them to deploy better now that they know.

Building a good list should never be a point of contention at a club. Building a good army list is part of the playing the game no matter if its a "net list"*or something you spent months designing and building up.

So first point out - good lists are NOT BAD.



Now second point - do you win every single match easily. This could be a result of you either having a very powerful list and/or being better at playing than the rest of the players. If you are always winning then chances are others in the group are feeling like you're winning too much - or rather that they are not winning enough. Taking part counts; but losing every time isn't fun and saps the fun out of the game.

Third part is attitude whilst you play. This is a hard area because its so easy to get the wrong end of the stick and to blow up small behaviours into huge problems (esp online where if you describe how you behave you'll only note a few tiny instances of general behaviour).
In general if you're really bigging up how you're winning and how your opponent is looooosing then some might interpret that as poor sportsmanship; which when coupled with you always winning might well be seen as a bad attitude.
Note that behaviour is always a point of interpretation so you might well not be doing anything bad; but its interpreted as such by those you are playing with.




Ways to resolve this:
1) Get new friends; go play somewhere else.

2) Take a different army list. Esp if you've been using the same list for ages; just try something new. Doesn't have to be weak/strong just use something different.

3) If the issue is less lists and more the fact that you can clearly see that you're a better player whilst the others keep losing because they do stupid tactical choices with what they have then consider helping/teaching them.
You'll have to balance your attitude (you suck here let me show you how its really done - not good!) in how to approach this; but in theory if you can offer to help others learn better and teach so that you advance the local skill then everyone wins. They get to improve their game and you get better improved gamers to play against.



Note - TFG tends to be the kind of thing that gets thrown around lightly. The term should only be used for the very rare exceptions who have major attitude problems. But sometimes people just get salty at losing to that "one good player" even if that good player is doing nothing wrong and is behaving perfectly fine.


*honestly there's no such thing as a "net list" its a myth created by people who are very bad at building lists and refuse to accept any help/advice.

"Im not gonna get into their inability to read the new 8th rules"

Without knowing anything about your list, if you're insulting thees people off handed to a bunch of strangers while asking if you're being a dick.. You may not be that guy but you're probably an ass.

As a few points to questions.

1. Out of the dozen or so games ive played, ive won 5 of them.

2. I was quite upbeat and never rubbed it in, in fact I rarely get salty in defeat either. Its just a dang game.

3. The list I built didnt even get to melee the last game. He conceeded turn 2 after I attacked him with a bunch of stuff first turn, because he exepected melee footslog and I brought deepstrike and fast units to cover my assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MattKing wrote:
"Im not gonna get into their inability to read the new 8th rules"

Without knowing anything about your list, if you're insulting thees people off handed to a bunch of strangers while asking if you're being a dick.. You may not be that guy but you're probably an ass.

He played a few basilisks and lemun russes covered by guardsmen and light artillery. I brought bikes, heldrake, forgefiend and termies to go up front in front of a mass of Bloodletters. Without doing a full battle report, that was the short and sweet of our two armies.

See? I point out the fact that you're insulting your "friends" behind their back and you continue to talk about how dumb they're being in order to justify your statement. It doesn't exactly scream "plays well with others".

If you have to ask...

In general, being fun to play against is a tough thing to gauge, and is honestly more important than taking a strong list or not. My closer friends that play 40k tell me I play a tough game, and they enjoy the challenge of going against me. Beating me is something they really want to do, because it doesn't happen often. Outside my closer friends, I'm just an average player, and there are lots of players that play much better lists than I do and play those lists much better than I would play them. But none of them are people I don't want to play against, so none of them, to me, are TFG.

There's a lot of discussion on these forums about what a TFG is, but that's really not the question that should be asked here. The question should be, "Am I someone that people like to play against?". Are they upset because you always win? I don't think so, because you've said you've lost more than half your games. Are they upset because you're min-maxed? Possibly, but that could just be a frustration more than anything. Or are they upset because there's something about the way you're playing that makes you someone they don't want to play against?

If it's that, have a chat with them. Ask them what really bothers them, and that you're looking to change. Maybe you constantly chastise them for something, and then unknowningly do it yourself. Maybe you're bringing the same lists over and over, and they just want some variety. Maybe there are some house rules that need to be included to make the game play more like how you want, like playing ITC faq's and terrain to help create LoS blockers. Of course, maybe house rules are a problem, and need to be cleaned out, despite how much it helps or hurts you.

In any case, ask them, and listen and respect their responses. Don't try to fix things or gloss over them or "correct" them right away. Let them finish talking, say you're going to try to do better, and then think about those things that night before coming up with a solution that makes both of you happy.

Good luck!

 MattKing wrote:
See? I point out the fact that you're insulting your "friends" behind their back and you continue to talk about how dumb they're being in order to justify your statement. It doesn't exactly scream "plays well with others".

Its hardly behind their backs. My group and I had this discussion over the topic as I said, but I wanted an outsiders opinion. It does frustrate me that a few of them seem to not even try to learn the newer rules, and thats why I seem almost aggressive about it.

A newer player doesn't have 6000 points of models as you mention in your signature.

TFG is all about attitude.

You can accrue a fair chunk of points in not a great deal of time. I've managed to do it myself.

In regards to the OP: are you building minmaxed lists? It doesn't sound like it if you're 5/12 in games. Ask your friends to build a list for you and see what they come up with.

It may have something to do with the game itself. Me and a friend both find that the game type drastically changes our fortunes on who wins. I Play a very assault heavy Night lords army where he prefers a boots on the ground Space marine army. In a straight up killfest, I always come out on top as my guys are made to do that punchwork, however in an objective game, I really feel the pinch as my guys just can't hold the objectives well enough for that period of time. Try playing some different game types (Open war cards are great for this) and see if the game dynamic changes somewhat to a more mutually gratifying game where it can swing either way.

Frankly, from your attitude here, I can absolutely see why some see you as TFG.

You don't seem "almost aggressive", you are insulting your friends and acting in a very aloof and arrogant way with their "inability to get the rules". If you have a stronger grasp of the rules than your friends, help them learn the game, don't just smash them and then gloat about their inability on the internet.

Track your wins/losses.

For every win, take one of your strongest units, sub in something weaker.

For every two losesses, swap them back.

Once you've seen enough wins/losses, when you're over 60%, tone down your list. When you're under 40%, buff it.

 curran12 wrote:
Frankly, from your attitude here, I can absolutely see why some see you as TFG.

You don't seem "almost aggressive", you are insulting your friends and acting in a very aloof and arrogant way with their "inability to get the rules". If you have a stronger grasp of the rules than your friends, help them learn the game, don't just smash them and then gloat about their inability on the internet.

Thats a fair assesment, im not perfect and I could very well seem that way. And its not that I rules lawyer them, its that I deepstrike turn 1, and my friend completely loses all morale because he didnt know thats a thing. Its on the first page of the core rules.

One of the hardest things to learn in a game with alternate turn activations is how to adapt to a changing battle.

In game with unit alternate activations adapting on the fly is more intuitive because each step one person takes the other gets to take a reply step.

However with alternate turns one player tends to get a better chance at at least starting their core game plan (whatever that is). If your opponent hasn't quite yet learned how to adapt on the fly to a changing battle it can seem really punishing if you blast a hole in their idea and they feel like you've already won.




That said turn 1 combat tends to scare a lot of people in any game.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Thats a fair assesment, im not perfect and I could very well seem that way. And its not that I rules lawyer them, its that I deepstrike turn 1, and my friend completely loses all morale because he didnt know thats a thing. Its on the first page of the core rules.

Then, as I said, teach them. You're doing exactly the same thing I just mentioned even in this post. you could have advised your friend what was coming, or explained that it was the rules, but instead you just said "it's your fault" to them (either in their face or here) and proceeded to smash them. Plus, judging by how you talk about this, you didn't spend any time teaching them game or new rules to them, instead you came straight to Dakka to effectively blame them. That's TFG behavior.

I play WE and I'm 0/6 in 8th. So I wouldn't say you're minmaxing just have a better grasp of the rules and a different variety of dudes to field.

 curran12 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Thats a fair assesment, im not perfect and I could very well seem that way. And its not that I rules lawyer them, its that I deepstrike turn 1, and my friend completely loses all morale because he didnt know thats a thing. Its on the first page of the core rules.

Then, as I said, teach them. You're doing exactly the same thing I just mentioned even in this post. you could have advised your friend what was coming, or explained that it was the rules, but instead you just said "it's your fault" to them (either in their face or here) and proceeded to smash them. Plus, judging by how you talk about this, you didn't spend any time teaching them game or new rules to them, instead you came straight to Dakka to effectively blame them. That's TFG behavior.

Id argue more, but this is beyond deconstructive to the original point and just piss throwing. Im done replying to you.

"he didnt know thats a thing. Its on the first page of the core rules."

You continue to insult someone we don't know and claim that this person's ignorance justifies assholeish behavior. It seems from your posts that you think that as long as we think someone else is a moron you're not "that guy".

When you find you're in a hole you nearly can't climb out of, put the shovel down.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Frankly, from your attitude here, I can absolutely see why some see you as TFG.

You don't seem "almost aggressive", you are insulting your friends and acting in a very aloof and arrogant way with their "inability to get the rules". If you have a stronger grasp of the rules than your friends, help them learn the game, don't just smash them and then gloat about their inability on the internet.

Thats a fair assesment, im not perfect and I could very well seem that way. And its not that I rules lawyer them, its that I deepstrike turn 1, and my friend completely loses all morale because he didnt know thats a thing. Its on the first page of the core rules.

While true, against more casual players I find doing this often results in a "gotcha" moment that make for a bad game. I think it is very important that if you have that ability, you should make it clear to your opponent that you can do so. Then if your opponent still loses 2 things should happen.

1.) Depending on the player, give them some tips on how they can counter said deepstrike/turn 1 assault.

2.) Especially if said players army doesn't have a great answer to the deepstrike, don't do that again, until you feel like they are able to handle it.

As one of the more experienced players in my group I always view it as my responsibility to help to improve players in my community.

As for learning the rules, not all people learn things at the same rate, or the same way as others. Plenty of people I know don't really learn things until they actually play them in the game.

Ask if you're a TFG, then argue when your behavior is marked as TFG. I suppose your interest wasn't in your behavior, you just wanted a pat on the back and assurance that you were all perfect.

The other way you could try is this:

Rebuild your list. CSM squads as troops. Take a few units of those. Then add a couple FA/HS/whatever. And if you want demons too, take a detatchment. Focus on having a couple troops.

This time, for now, don't have a central plan. Just throw units in the list. Try to be fairly general about it.

Play a few games. Yes, there's a good chance you'll lose a couple. That's not a bad thing.

Now your regular opponents know the game better. Start using more of your knowledge.

Start adding shenanigans. Little by little. Game by game. Exploiting each one until they've caught on and figured out how to counter.

They'll enjoy playing you more. You'll get more games. You could even retain a positive W/L/D that way.

And then they'll understand, and better enjoy, the game more.

Breng77 wrote:


While true, against more casual players I find doing this often results in a "gotcha" moment that make for a bad game. I think it is very important that if you have that ability, you should make it clear to your opponent that you can do so. Then if your opponent still loses 2 things should happen.

1.) Depending on the player, give them some tips on how they can counter said deepstrike/turn 1 assault.

2.) Especially if said players army doesn't have a great answer to the deepstrike, don't do that again, until you feel like they are able to handle it.

As one of the more experienced players in my group I always view it as my responsibility to help to improve players in my community.

As for learning the rules, not all people learn things at the same rate, or the same way as others. Plenty of people I know don't really learn things until they actually play them in the game.

These are all excellent suggestions!

To the Original Poster. Worry less about how people perceive you and more about how to be an actual friend to your friends.

To answer if you are TFG, I would need the testimony of 3x people and consult my flow chart.

 MattKing wrote:
"he didnt know thats a thing. Its on the first page of the core rules."

You continue to insult someone we don't know and claim that this person's ignorance justifies assholeish behavior. It seems from your posts that you think that as long as we think someone else is a moron you're not "that guy".

When you find you're in a hole you nearly can't climb out of, put the shovel down.

I dont consider not reading the rulebook to be moronic, stop trying to put words in my mouth. Its just frustratingly lazy for a person whos had months to do so.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Thats a fair assesment, im not perfect and I could very well seem that way. And its not that I rules lawyer them, its that I deepstrike turn 1, and my friend completely loses all morale because he didnt know thats a thing. Its on the first page of the core rules.

Then, as I said, teach them. You're doing exactly the same thing I just mentioned even in this post. you could have advised your friend what was coming, or explained that it was the rules, but instead you just said "it's your fault" to them (either in their face or here) and proceeded to smash them. Plus, judging by how you talk about this, you didn't spend any time teaching them game or new rules to them, instead you came straight to Dakka to effectively blame them. That's TFG behavior.

Id argue more, but this is beyond deconstructive to the original point and just piss throwing. Im done replying to you.

Whilst you might have taken the comment as hostile its in fact just trying to get you to approach things from a different angle. Instead of focusing on annoyance at what the others don't know; focus instead on teaching what you do know and encouraging them to learn. Not everyone approaches Warhammer 40K by reading the rules inside and out and many learn as they play ; which can be why they'd be arguing over very basic points - because they are still learning the very basic points and they choose to learn whilst playing. It's a hobby so its not like they are taking the rulebook home to memorise for a test.

Look, here's where we stand. You came here to ask weather or not you're being a duche.
Several people told you they didn't have enough information. Two guys gave you excellent summaries of how not to be a duche and I, and others, pointed out you're behaving like child right here and now. I think the vote is in. If you don't like it you shouldn't have asked.