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Made in gb
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds




Hi all, sorry if the question is a little broad, but I know very little about the rules of 40K now as I’ve been away for 6-7 months and had no time for 40k due to life commitments.

I’m just looking to know, on a basic level what the meta favours (if anything) and whether it’s liable to change soon. A list of some of the top/bottom tier armies this edition would be nice too. Hopefully Tau and Craftworlds aren’t broken this time and Orks and Nids aren’t awful either?

For those interested I’m thinking of starting a semi-fluffy Guard Army based on WW1 Germany (not kriegers) with a knight in support looking like the Red Baron or draped in Imperial German heraldry, so a couple of sentences about how Guard perform and are best used in 8th would be a great help.

Ultra-Ultramarines are a great idea. 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





The correct definition for the current meta is: Shifting

This edition resetted everything and restarted by giving indices to all factions. The meta with those was slightly in favor of the ranged factions, namely guards but SM could face them by stacking a lot of buffs. Nothing major actually, all factions were playable.

Then the first codices were released. Factions with a codex have a solid vantage over factions who don't, that's a fact. The first codices to be relesed were shooty factions (Guards, adeptus Mechanicus and Eldar) or hybrid assault/shoot factions (SM, CSM, Death Guard, GK). This meant that the meta shifted highly in favor of shooty lists, and it became a contest of who can shoot longer and harder for cheaper. In particular, guard right now is seen as the top faction, and that's not a surprise since when you remove from the game the assault phase and you don't have all the broken psy tricks of 7th, the guards rejoice.

Now, with the release of the Tyranid codex, the game gained the first faction who REALLY wants to get in your face and has all the tricks needed for it. The first batreps already show that they are meta breaking, shooty lists suffer a lot against tyranids. The meta will now shift, reduce pure firepower, increase slow and bulky melee threats to counter the fast assaulters and....? Time will tell.
In my personal view, CSM and SM hybrid lists are going to become top of the pack.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 11:47:36


 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

State of the meta in 8th is: everything that has a codex can be competitive, maybe with some allied (see GK) and absolutely enjoyable in casual and semi-competitive metas. All the other factions, that still use the index, have very limited choices even in super friendly games. Orks can be competitive by using the index even in tournaments but they must rely on a few units, while 70% of the codex doesn't work even in friendly games.

At the moment AM are the top tiers. Followed by SM, chaos, eldar and tyranids.

Tau, orks, drukhari, necrons etc don't have the codex yet so it's impossible to predict if they will be broken, average, decent or garbage in this edition.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Spoletta wrote:
The correct definition for the current meta is: Shifting

Definitely agree 100%.

Spoletta wrote:

Now, with the release of the Tyranid codex, the game gained the first faction who REALLY wants to get in your face and has all the tricks needed for it. The first batreps already show that they are meta breaking, shooty lists suffer a lot against tyranids. The meta will now shift, reduce pure firepower, increase slow and bulky melee threats to counter the fast assaulters and....? Time will tell.
In my personal view, CSM and SM hybrid lists are going to become top of the pack.

I am not sure Tyrannids are going to bring back the CC phase. My own early experiences facing them suggest that they suffer from the same problem as everyone else in CC, namely that you can no longer lock units in place. Units who get charged are only at risk if they suffer catastrophic casualties in the first round of combat. If they can survive this, they can withdraw and their buddies can shoot up the attackers. Looking at units like Beserkers, the approach seems to have been to load up special rules on dedicated CC units so that they can deliver a massive wallop of damage on the turn they charge. Banshees are similar to some extent with a massive charge range and ignoring overwatch but neither solves the problem of what happens after they charge.

Assault armies need impressive co-ordination to work, assaulting piecemeal is a death sentence. The CC player needs to assault sufficient enemy units that if the enemy withdraws, a large proportion of his army is going to be neutered by the inability to shoot. The trouble is that there are too many armies that can get around this for it to be reliable. Any army with skimmers can withdraw with minimal penalty. Ultramarines can withdraw and still shoot with a -1 penalty (tolerable on BS3+ troops).

Nids still seem to have this trouble. Their traits and upgrades allow them to get into assault quicker and do more damage when they are there but the problem still remains that if they fail to break through on the charge, they are probably going to lose.

3rd-7th editions had assault as a grinding attrition with both sides locked in place until one side was broken or destroyed. Now we have a situation where CC is a fleeting occurrence with units either breaking the enemy on a glorious charge or being kited and then blasted to oblivion by nearby shooty units in the following turn.

With assault being so all-or-nothing it makes it hard to include CC units in a balanced combined-arms force. Why would you invest in melee troops when you can invest in more guns to make CC even less attractive for the opponent? CC units seem to work to finish off weakened units. I am not convinced they work as the speartip.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 12:04:06


I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





You may want to check at the games being played now by nids.

In short, you can't fall back if you can't fly, surrounding is too easy and the top factions right now don't fly.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Space Marine




 Karhedron wrote:
Looking at units like Beserkers, the approach seems to have been to load up special rules on dedicated CC units so that they can deliver a massive wallop of damage on the turn they charge. Banshees are similar to some extent with a massive charge range and ignoring overwatch but neither solves the problem of what happens after they charge.


This hadn't occurred to me before, but they function very similarly to deep-striking plasma squads, fire dragons and the like. Almost as "one shot" units.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





momerathe wrote:
 Karhedron wrote:
Looking at units like Beserkers, the approach seems to have been to load up special rules on dedicated CC units so that they can deliver a massive wallop of damage on the turn they charge. Banshees are similar to some extent with a massive charge range and ignoring overwatch but neither solves the problem of what happens after they charge.


This hadn't occurred to me before, but they function very similarly to deep-striking plasma squads, fire dragons and the like. Almost as "one shot" units.


Depends on the unit.
Genestealers work like that, they break what they touch but the counter fire is really point efficient against them.
Hormagaunts instead are there to move up 58 inches in the first round (ideal scenario), putting whatever they can in melee and surrounding so they can't escape. They don't inflict much damage, but they disrupt gun lines nicely.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Spoletta wrote:
You may want to check at the games being played now by nids.

In short, you can't fall back if you can't fly, surrounding is too easy and the top factions right now don't fly.


Surrounding an enemy unit is easier with nids than anyone else, I agree, but unless you are relying on hormagants I still don’t see it as totally viable/easy to reliably pull off.

For example, 20 genestealers will likely melt whatever unit they charge into, and if they charge multiple units and leave some models in a couple of the units alive, I’d just be removing the casualties in a way to prevent being surrounded. Still, not always easy to pull off, but I think you’re over estimating the ability to surround units as well as a result of a 9” deep strike charge.

Also, I disagree with the “top armies can’t fly” statement as well. Ynnari were (rip ) strong in this sense. Craftworld else are incredibly strong at this and are also expected to be one of the top armies right now. Other top armies have units that can fly – which are typically the main threats (especially in Chaos armies). As for Guard, they are strong, yes, but I still don’t think “pure” Guard are top of the tree right now. Chaos, is currently taking the top spot more than Guard, however, Guard still do have strong finishes – the problem is, often they are Guard + BobbyG combinations, at which point we really should stop considering them as “Guard” armies.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I can almost guarantee that Dark Eldar are set up for failure.

Built right in, almost half their models are going to get no benefit from their "chapter tactics" (since many just have the Drukhari keyword and no <keyword&gt and the rest of their medium-sized range of units is split between not one, not two, but THREE <keywords> and almost none of their HQs are worth taking more than one of, because they're buffers and almost nothing else. Drukhari are going to epically struggle to effectively fill out a Battalion, and one of the subfactions (wych cult) would not even be capable of taking a Brigade, because all the Heavy Support slot units include only <Kabal> and <Coven> keyword - so unless they get some kind of super-inclusive benefits where you get all three within one detachment, DE are going to struggle to build lists.

And that situation is just going to get worse when their HQs are crammed into the horrible builds that their sculpts have, rather than the relatively open selection of weapons they have now. Archon's terrible close combat stats leading you to use him as an overpriced Blaster wielder? Not anymore lol.

Couple that with GWs eternal mental crippling when it comes to creating non-boring rules for the DE (the Haemonculus melee weapon table features 6 options with Poison 4+ with tiny microscopic variations) and their weird compulsion to force their units to where they don't work (Why aren't people taking Archons into melee??? They have power swords and THREE ATTACKS at strength 3, they're a terror! Better give them a reroll ones to hit warlord trait, that's obviously the problem.) and I can't see anything improving for the drukhari.

DE players will continue to contort the faction into whatever weird shape lets them use part of their gorgeous model range, however small, but GW has shown no indication they know what would make them any good.

"Wyches are the most improved unit of the new edition." Never forget, that was the claim. These are still T3, 6+ save vs all shooting, 9 ppm infantry units with an attack stat of 1.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Kdash wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
You may want to check at the games being played now by nids.

In short, you can't fall back if you can't fly, surrounding is too easy and the top factions right now don't fly.


Surrounding an enemy unit is easier with nids than anyone else, I agree, but unless you are relying on hormagants I still don’t see it as totally viable/easy to reliably pull off.

For example, 20 genestealers will likely melt whatever unit they charge into, and if they charge multiple units and leave some models in a couple of the units alive, I’d just be removing the casualties in a way to prevent being surrounded. Still, not always easy to pull off, but I think you’re over estimating the ability to surround units as well as a result of a 9” deep strike charge.

Also, I disagree with the “top armies can’t fly” statement as well. Ynnari were (rip ) strong in this sense. Craftworld else are incredibly strong at this and are also expected to be one of the top armies right now. Other top armies have units that can fly – which are typically the main threats (especially in Chaos armies). As for Guard, they are strong, yes, but I still don’t think “pure” Guard are top of the tree right now. Chaos, is currently taking the top spot more than Guard, however, Guard still do have strong finishes – the problem is, often they are Guard + BobbyG combinations, at which point we really should stop considering them as “Guard” armies.


Stealers rarely go for the deepstrike, too unreliable. They can traverse the board with ease in a single turn, so why risk a 9" charge?

Apart from that, i agree with what you say.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

As far as I can tell, it's spam as far as the eye can see and mixing and matching detachments to get the most advantages. Guilliman Gunlines, mortarion and magnus with alpha legion cultists and/or malefic lords, guard seems to have a mix because they are OP (be sure to take like 3 different detachments with different traits though) things like that. Looks totally degenerate to me, like a completely different game.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Hell Hole Washington

Im going to go with lots of whining from some corners for 600$ Alex.

Seriously though. I feel like the meta is still developing and with Chapter approved things will be further shaken up.

Pestilence Provides.  
   
Made in gb
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds




Thanks all for replying. The metas still developing as new stuff is released got it. Which factions currently don’t have Codices ATM?

Ultra-Ultramarines are a great idea. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Thanks all for replying. The metas still developing as new stuff is released got it. Which factions currently don’t have Codices ATM?


by January we'll have about 75% of imperium and chaos with a codex, 25% of Xenos with a codex.

Orks, Tau, Necrons, GSC, Harlequins, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Sisters, Misc. Imperium, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons have yet to be announced.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Troubled By Non-Compliant Worlds




the_scotsman wrote:
Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Thanks all for replying. The metas still developing as new stuff is released got it. Which factions currently don’t have Codices ATM?


by January we'll have about 75% of imperium and chaos with a codex, 25% of Xenos with a codex.

Orks, Tau, Necrons, GSC, Harlequins, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Sisters, Misc. Imperium, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons have yet to be announced.

Thanks

Ultra-Ultramarines are a great idea. 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






the_scotsman wrote:

"Wyches are the most improved unit of the new edition." Never forget, that was the claim. These are still T3, 6+ save vs all shooting, 9 ppm infantry units with an attack stat of 1.


Wyches have limited use now. That's still an infinite improvement over what they used to be. So, technically, it's still a kinda true statement.

Personally i prefer wyches over cabalites. Simply because of 4++ and 6+++ in mellee and an ability to actually lock something. Those few extra poison shots from cabalytes aren't that great in an army with a gazillion blaster shots.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/24 07:59:10


 
   
 
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