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Hello Dakka! I'm making my "wish list" and I am perusing the Forge World store and reading in the Forces of the Adeptus Astartes Index for 8th Edition, and wondering which Sicaran tank would best complement my current (Blood Angels but I also play Dark Angels...or at least I may when their Codex drops) list. I'm sick of getting tabled by my Eldar playing friend, who has also killed me with Genestealer spam in the new Tyranid codex--and want to add some heavy hitting.

So, here are the choices:

1. Relic Sicaran Battle Tank with Twin Accelerator Autocannon (48", Assault 8, Str 7, AP -1, D2)

2. Relic Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer with Neutron Pulse Cannon (48", Heavy 3, Str 12, AP -4, D6)

3. Relic Sicaran Punisher Assault Tank with Punisher Rotary Cannon (36", Heavy 18, Str 5, AP -1, D1)

I recognize the different roles they play on the battlefield, and they can each also take 2 Heavy Bolters or Lascannons, which would either provide more anti-infantry or anti-tank support. However, does anybody have and use these? What is working best in the current Dakka-intense meta? How would you use your choice to complement the play style of a Space Marines, or Blood Angels, or Dark Angels force?

I'd go with the battle tank, purely because it looks the best :p

It does look cool, but I am interested in trying to bring something to the table that will enhance/improve upon what I already can take, especially with ranged shooting.

In my mind, therefore, the regular Battle Tank is the least appealing, with its Str 7 attacks and 8 shots--plus assault weapons are not really appealing with a tank; I don't want it to assault anything.

You have to ask yourself what you're trying to kill. Is it conscripts and genestealers? In that case you take the 18 shots at strength five and accept that it's only going to do a few wounds a turn to a tank, or you optimize for tank hunting and take the Pulse Cannon and average twice as many wounds against a tough seven target and more than that against a tough eight one. The secondary weapon should match the primary unless you're intentionally dividing your capabilites on all models so you can split fire no matter what they focus down.

Don't discount the accelerator autocannons ability to negate to hit penalties to units with FLY. It's so broadly worded that beyond obvious things like flyers units like shadow specters it mortarian are in for hurt.

Nice point, @Buddha. I had noted that as well. I've got two Primaris Repulsors at the moment, which have SOME anti-air capability, and honestly I don't find the -1 to hit against units with FLY that big an obstacle. Certainly far less difficult than in 7th Ed.

As for the "function fits the role," I definitely hear you, @LordRuby. Ideally I would like to add one of each--the Pulse Cannon with Lascannon sponsons, and the Punisher with heavy bolters (27 Str 5 AP -1 shots a turn is a lot of anti-infantry!). But, at the price point, I am wondering which to go with first.

I have done much the same with the aforementioned Primaris Repulsors, actually--one with the Las talon and lascannons for long-range tank hunting, and the other with the Onslaught gatling cannons for Dakka. So I am really wondering if--in ways other than the cool appearance of these Sicaran tanks--they are worth the Earth Money to add.

That I can't advise you on besides the weapon profiles, which seem good, because I don't really do forge world. It isn't allowed in my area so I've never had cause to learn the rules, but if you want to win one forge world tank isn't going to help that much. You need to know why you're losing games for that. What specifically are you having trouble killing or nullifying and what's the best method for fixing that problem. I don't really know what you're facing besides genestealers, and the best counter to those is a line of infantry in front of the things that matter so their charge isn't fatal, and Eldar, which could mean almost anything.

Good point, @Lord Ruby

The general lists my (single) opponent runs go something like this:

HQ PTS
Autarch PwrS, Rlaun 5 100
Yvraine 7 132
ELITES
Wraithguard (5) D-scy 10 225
HVY SUPPORT
Dark Reaper, (10) RL 18 367
War Walker 3 (6BL) 15 273
FLYER
Hemlock Wraithfighter 10 221
DEDICATED TRANSPORT
Wave Serpent, SC,TBL,SPS, VE 9 179

Total points: 1497

OR This:

HQ PL PTS
Farseer (Guide, Doom) SSp 6 120
Yvraine 7 132
ELITES
Fire Dragons, (5) DBFlamer 6 120
Fire Dragons, (5) DBFlamer 6 120
Wraithguard (6) D-scy 10 270
HVY SUPPORT
Dark Reaper, (5) 1 TML 9 187
FLYER
Hemlock Wraithfighter 10 221
DEDICATED TRANSPORT
Wave Serpent, ShCn 3,SPS, VE 9 163
Wave Serpent, ShCn 3,SPS, VE 9 163
72 1496

So, this was before the FAQ change, and he was using the Soulburst thing to shoot the heck out of me in both his turn and mine. If I killed a unit, I would immediately get smashed. His Hemlock is also crazy hard core with instant hits from the templates, and the Wraith guard were the same. So he killed my Storm raven and also wiped out my Aggressors really early.

So I guess I am looking to keep my distance (not very Blood Angel-y, I know) with the long-range guns, and try to pop him before he gets too close, or to wait until he disembarks his shooty units like the dark reapers and shoot them with the Punisher variety. (Or shoot the Wraithguard and even war walkers with 27 shots and force them to miss saves)

Is your list mostly tank based? Or other multi-wound models? Because if it is I can see why you'd have a bad match up. His list is excellent at killing them, but probably can't remove much in the way of infantry every turn. I doubt another tank will fix your problems.

I know you said you were playing Blood Angels. What's the rest of your list look like?

I have been playing a mixture of non-fluffy BA and Primaris (2-wound models, @Ruby) marines--5 man squads of Intercessors and some Helblasters, along with some Aggressors in a Repulsor--with Lemartes and some Death Company, and a Devastator squad. I tried out Mephiston but he was just too slow, and so I have been running a generic Primaris Captain to bolster the gunline.

Basically, I am struggling to see how to succeed with BA as when I get close, if I don't finish him off, he just destroys me the next turn.

I am hoping for some enhancements (or points drops) to Death Company & Sanguinary Guard, plus eager to see the expanded Psychic discipline when the Codex comes out. But until then I'm basically playing "Red Space Marines" which (clearly) is not very effective.

So, @LordRuby, what would you suggest to counter his list, if not more tanks?

Wait for chapter approved. The venator has apparently received a hefty points reduction.

pismakron wrote:
Wait for chapter approved. The venator has apparently received a hefty points reduction.

Would not be surprised if some of the other Sicaran variants have too.

Yeah, Red Space Marines are not the best right now. What I'd suggest is mostly scouts and non-primaris infantry. He's paying a premium for multi-damage shots, which you can negate by not playing multi-wound models. Things like Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons die pretty good to bolter fire. Properly screened melee characters are also an option, but you really don't want him to fly away and leave you hanging in the wind, so if you do that you absolutely have to fully commit to the plan. Absolute worst case scenario? His low range models are unable to shoot a bunch of one wound models off the table and you can beat him with ob sec. You need to focus down the dark reapers first, which is best done with melee because of how easy eldar can give you hit penalties in shooting. I haven't checked but I've heard Mephiston is pretty great at that. What you want to do is draw him in close and then beat him there, he's already going to do some of that with the wraith guard, but you probably are going to end up eating his flyer to the face for the whole game.

But really, the answer is scouts.

Thanks for the advice, gents! I will wait for Chapter Approved...and hope that the Codex helps out too.

@LordRuby, thanks for the tactical advice; I appreciate it! My scouts with sniper rifles were great at holding an objective the last game (they were just about the only thing that survived the game...) and even killed his Dark Reaper...leader guy. Would you take Bolters and maybe a Heavy Bolter on the Scouts? How many squads would you suggest?

Getting back to the original question, I was essentially thinking of the Venator sitting in the backline blasting stuff from a distance while I do tie him up in that manner... I still like the model and it will smash his Wave Serpents to bits, I reckon, which will put his deadly cargo out in the open too.

Battletank, because its main gun is Assault, meaning you can freely move and even advance, when pressed. Very flexible. The Punisher is very meh. I'd pick the Venator is you lack solid dedicated anti-tank, but in this case I prefer traditional toys like the Venerable Dread or Predators.

It is strange how most of Forge World was power-nerfed while a few select entries got the sweet treatment. I wonder if the Sicaran tanks will be included in a codex proper at some point.