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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think at this point that is a fair enough statement to make. 7th edition codex was terrible, both supplements weren't good. Our new units that came out were terrible (Nauts, Wazbom) the 8th index is crap behind boyz and a handful of units (most of which are basically just boyz) and now we just got our Chapter approved strategy..... 1CP allows a unit to shoot and every hit of 6 generates an extra shot that can't itself generate another shot.

To put that in perspective. 30 shoota boyz teleport in front of a target so all are in range. Normally that's 20 S4 hits. With this strategy that becomes a whopping 23 hits. Who the hell wrote that and thought "Hmm yes this is a good strategy for Orkz" while next door someone wrote a strategy that have troops the ability to fire all their weapons and every 6 let them fire the entire weapon again...at better BS mind you.

Honest opinion please. Do you guys really think that strategy is worth spending CP on and do you think the "price cuts" they have been talking about will fix much?

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Of course they don't. Orks arent real, you silly.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Galas wrote:
Of course they don't. Orks arent real, you silly.

They're real, they just can't write.

   
Made in ca
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Kapuskasing, ON

I'm of the opinion the the rules writers and fluff writers are actual orks based on quality of writing and overall forethought.
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

Òrks haven't had a champion in the dev team for going on a decade as past codexes prove,

the good dev's left long ago.
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





 Galas wrote:
Of course they don't. Orks arent real, you silly.


Dis iz wot ya fink, ya git

Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis! 
   
Made in gb
Fully-charged Electropriest






I agree with the original post, it seems fairly obvious that no one at GW is particularly passionate about Orks.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Who wrote the seventh edition codex?
   
Made in au
Screamin' Stormboy




Australia

I agree. It seems as though the people who knew what they where doing with the orks left GW, and now we're left with the same guys who write up the other armies. It's as if they've just decided that orks aren't worth putting time and thought into. Maybe they'll figure themselves out with the codex.

Never challenge an Armenian to a game of chess. 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

I'm still optimistic. At first blush the Stratagem doesn't seem that great, and it is wasted on regular Boyz, but for a few units it's not that bad.

It's good for Tankbustas, especially with Rokkit Pistols. It's also good for Flash Gitz, and maybe good for large mobs of Warbikes and strangely Grots. Of course Flash Gitz, Warbikes and Grots currently aren't worth taking, but that's for other reasons, and price drops could definitely make them more viable. Regular Nobz with Kombi Rokkits and Ammo Runts could also be a good use for it, but again the Kombi weapons cost way too much.

The main reason I'm optimistic is the Codexes I've seen so far there don't seem to be very many Stratagems, Warlord Traits and Chapter Tactics equivalents that don't synergize pretty well. There are exceptions, I'm sure, but for the most part they seem pretty good.

I could easily see us getting a shoot twice stratagem like a lot of other armies, and that could be stacked with the Dakka Dakka Dakka stratagem. Orks can fill out detachments and get lots of command points pretty easy, so I think it might be kind of cool if our codex encouraged us to stack stratagems in crazy ways (at appropriate cost). The Tyranid codex does this a bit. (I liked the idea that the person in the Ork Tactics thread had about giving the Psycho Dakka Blasta rule out to all Orks, but I think it would be more appropriate as a stratagem. It's a cool somewhat random risk-reward type thing that is more fitting for the Orks than just shooting twice, IMO.)

So maybe all Bad Moons get an Clan ability that lets them Advance and shoot Assault Weapons or move and shoot Heavy weapons without penalty, and their Warlord Trait is +1 to hit to Bad Moons within 6", and you can stack up a shoot twice ability with the Dakka Dakka Dakka stratagem. That could be a crazy good combo. Of course I'm just making this up and there's a good chance none of it will happen.

Yeah, there's a chance that GW could write a really bad codex full of things that are overcosted, don't synergize and don't fit the lore. I'm not too worried about it. I figure there will probably be a few stinkers in the Codex but based on the other ones that have been released it will probably be pretty good.

I am, however, very concerned about how much might be cut considering how we rely on kitbashing for so much.

YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





My favourite use of Ork-style thinking is their use in Forbidden Stars. In it, they aren't totally random, but rather, they make their opponent's stuff more random! In this way, their opponent's become weaker, and stuff being done TO the Orks is more Random, rather than the Orks doing it to themselves.

How could that be translate into 40k?

#1 - Intrinsic "Bad" Rerolls; Your opponent must reroll hit rolls of 6 when making attack rolls to hit Orks. This makes all forces a little less effective. Hilariously, hurts enemy Ork armies the most, but what else do you expect from a Big Ork Brawl?

#2 - Ramshackle; Your opponent must reroll damage rolls of 4 or higher against Ork Trukks; they aren't hard to hurt, but they can lose huge chunks at almost no ill effect!

#3 - The Orks ignore -1AP effects. This isn't super random, but it does mean that the Orks get their T-Shirt saves now and then!

#4 - Big Mek aura bonus; Your opponent must reroll saving throws of 6 against Orks.

That's a good start!

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hmm i can also see lootas making good use of it, in particular if you can join 2 units of lootas together.

It's not like the stratagem isn't good, for 1 CP +1/6 damage (or more in case of rerolls) to a unit isn't bad... it's just that orks don't have good shooting infantry/bikers to begin with. Now if the other stratagem can indeed join together 2 squads, then things become really interesting.

   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Dey iz mukkin' abaut.

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Well, if the faeit rumors are to be believed, dakka dakka is the only bad part of the Ork rules.

Combined Squad stratagem has the potential to be bonkers, and the relic and WL trait synergize excellently together.

If we get those I'll happily just not use dakka dakka. I'll take my S8 AP-2 D3 damage warboss who dishes mortals on a 6+ to wound and my da jump squads of 30x Boyz 9x meganobz.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





SemperMortis wrote:


Honest opinion please. Do you guys really think that strategy is worth spending CP on and do you think the "price cuts" they have been talking about will fix much?


Price cuts can fix quite literally everything. Orkanauts in 7th would have been absolutely broken if they cost 50 points each. You would have seen Orks sweeping every tournament.

Now, do I think GW's price cuts for the Ork codex will actually fix stuff? No. I'm sure there will be points cuts handed out, I just don't have any faith in GW knowing the kind of price cuts needed. The Ork index and what we've seen of CA so far for Orks makes me think exactly what you have said: that there is no-one left on the rules team who is really passionate about Orks. It's no co-incidence that Cruddace is the main rules writer, a long established tread-head, and Guard gets themselves probably the best codex release thusfar.

Without someone on the rules team to champion Orks, we're going to be stuck in the same rules pit more or less indefinitely. Points costs will continue to be basically random and we'll just have to try and muddle through each year.
   
Made in nz
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot



New Zealand

 Glane wrote:

Price cuts can fix quite literally everything. Orkanauts in 7th would have been absolutely broken if they cost 50 points each. You would have seen Orks sweeping every tournament.


Points cuts can only so far. If you reduce points ranges too mus this leads to the lesser troops such as guard, gaunts, orks etc to a narrower point range.

If Z is better than X and X is better than Y. If Z is 5 points and Y is 4 points where do you put X. If you put X at 5 points it cannot compete with Z. If you put X at 4 points Y cannot compete with X. If you put X at 4 points and drop Y to 3 points, W is going to cry foul. If Z was 10 points and Y 8 points at least you could make X 9 points.

When 3rd ed basically halved all points it became much harder to price lower tier troops appropriately. Space Marines are now 13 pts/model they used to be 30.

So until everything, and I mean everything, has a huge points increase we have to be careful about points cuts.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gig Harbor, WA

If I was in charge of the orks codex, I'd focus on the ramshackle style of gameplay, and harken back to 2nd edition. Green tide is a fine way to play, but it should absolutely not be the only way to play.

First I'd remove the combat bonus for having large groups of ork boyz, because it makes players think they should only be running orks in hordes. Next, I'd give ork boyz a special rule for riding in transports, that lets them attack while still inside the trukk or wagon. That would make trukks supremely useful, because you could cruise straight up to the enemy and charge right into him. While using this special rule, the orks would be targetable in CC however.

For battlewagons, I'd let them carry dreadnoughts and killa kans. Killa kans could cost 3 slots, and dreadnoughts 5.

In my opinion, clan rules should not be like chapter tactics, where your whole detachment has to be one clan. Ork armies are fluff wise often made up of a mix mash of clans. Instead, I would make the buff more like the old style chaos buffs, where you pick it for each individual unit.
- Goffs would get +1 attack. Or maybe +1 strength.
- Deathskulls would get +1 armor save and 6" extra range on weapons for all their looting.
- Badmoons would get +1 to BS and WS to represent that their gear is better than anyone elses.
- Kommandos would get a kick ass deployment option.
- Snakebites would get a +1 invuln save for their tattoos and being so barbaric.

Those are my ideas. I think orks need to move beyond being just a horde of awful shooting and good melee. That wasn't always what they were.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/24 02:11:56


 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





I always peferred Speed orkz than horde, so anything that makes Trukks more usable will be great.I have enough models to run 6 units of Trukk boyz, but not enough to run slogging, (66). Layered with lots of Lootaz for support, it was my favorite army to run in 7th.

The codex is gonna absolutely NEED a model release, at least for a Mega Armored warboss. No model No entry in the main Codex means foot Boss only. I would also like an alternative to the FW Biker boss personally. Buggies, Koptaz will be Legacy.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/24 03:46:09


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




yeah I preferred speed freakz over hordes as well. I have a enough warbikes to run 3 squads of 12 and 6 Koptas, as well as 45 Storm Boyz and 3 Trukkz 3 Wagonz.

Sadly, none of them are worth taking right now because of how massively over priced and weak they are.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
yeah I preferred speed freakz over hordes as well. I have a enough warbikes to run 3 squads of 12 and 6 Koptas, as well as 45 Storm Boyz and 3 Trukkz 3 Wagonz.

Sadly, none of them are worth taking right now because of how massively over priced and weak they are.


The most annoying thing is that you cannot run a mix. If you mix walkers with infantry or mech then all three parts suffer. I really like the greentide but the current meta is simply too extreme. Making pile in and consolidate with two-hundred models is pretty stressful under a time-limit. It does not help when your opponent looks at you as you are purposefully trying to kill him with boredom.
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




London, UK

Not as bad as when the Thousand Sons rules were written by someone who not only didn't play them, but played Space Wolves! They got shafted too, what a coincidence....

I suspect Orks are in the same boat.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




We putting any bets when it comes to "warband traits" they will do something stupid like "speed freaks : all orks units with this clan rule gets +1 to their close combat attack rolls" or something completely not speed related?
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

pismakron wrote:
The most annoying thing is that you cannot run a mix. If you mix walkers with infantry or mech then all three parts suffer. I really like the greentide but the current meta is simply too extreme. Making pile in and consolidate with two-hundred models is pretty stressful under a time-limit. It does not help when your opponent looks at you as you are purposefully trying to kill him with boredom.

In my head I always pictured IG infantry advancing behind the shelter of Leman Russ tanks, kind of like how tanks were used in WW1. I always pictured Orks doing the same thing with their Deff Dreads and Killa Kanz. I believe there are examples of this in the fluff, but I can't recall any off of the top of my head.

I was hoping that there would be a stratagem along the lines of choosing an infantry squad that is wholly within 3" of a walker (for Orks) or LRBT (for IG) when they are declared the target of an enemy shooting attack. Until the end of the shooting phase all hits against the squad actually hit the walker/tank on a 3+. That way when the enemy tries to hose down your Tankbustas or Veterans with anti-infantry weapons they actually mostly bounce harmlessly off the vehicles. It could really help the survivability of all the glass cannon Ork elites, and would make a mixed infantry and walker army more viable. (Obviously it would need to be worded better, as what I wrote is kind of a mess.)

The Astra Militarum Codex didn't include anything like that so I'm guessing the Orks won't get it either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nightlord1987 wrote:
The codex is gonna absolutely NEED a model release, at least for a Mega Armored warboss. No model No entry in the main Codex means foot Boss only. I would also like an alternative to the FW Biker boss personally. Buggies, Koptaz will be Legacy.

They still sell Buggies, Trakks and Deffkoptas, they're just ancient models that are webstore exclusives.

But yeah, it could get really bad for us, especially if they decide to get really strict about kitbashing and only allowing what's in the box. Like, Ammor Runts are one of our very best upgrades. If they got super strict they could say that only regular Nobz can take them and they can only have one for every five Nobz. That would be horrible for Nobz and Flash Gitz (Flash Gitz already being bad).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 argonak wrote:
First I'd remove the combat bonus for having large groups of ork boyz, because it makes players think they should only be running orks in hordes. Next, I'd give ork boyz a special rule for riding in transports, that lets them attack while still inside the trukk or wagon. That would make trukks supremely useful, because you could cruise straight up to the enemy and charge right into him. While using this special rule, the orks would be targetable in CC however.

The Boarding Plank vehicle upgrade used to allow embarked Ork units to attack vehicles near their transport without disembarking, rather than adding inches to how far the Orks can disembark. It would be cool if that would come back.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/24 20:54:00


YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

 argonak wrote:
If I was in charge of the orks codex, I'd focus on the ramshackle style of gameplay, and harken back to 2nd edition. Green tide is a fine way to play, but it should absolutely not be the only way to play.

First I'd remove the combat bonus for having large groups of ork boyz, because it makes players think they should only be running orks in hordes. Next, I'd give ork boyz a special rule for riding in transports, that lets them attack while still inside the trukk or wagon. That would make trukks supremely useful, because you could cruise straight up to the enemy and charge right into him. While using this special rule, the orks would be targetable in CC however.

While I agree it shouldn't be the only way to play I don't like that proposed change. I for one am really enjoying how "good" my mobs of boys are on the table now. reducing the number of attacks would increase the number of models I would want on the field. That said my last list had one mob of 10 shoota boys and 1 mob of 30 boys and the rest of the army was dreads and Artillery and other shooty stuff and trukks. Things were challenging but over all went well enough.
I think when it comes to lists a lot of people are afraid to take a risk when picking units that don't appear "optimal".

depending on how this chapter approved shakes out I'm looking at taking more trukk boys and more flash gitz. And if the rumored mob up turns out to be true losing the green tide ability would hurt a list build around smaller units. I want to keep every tool I've been given to use.

Sigh, Yet another doomed attempt by man to bridge the gap between the material and spiritual worlds 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

 warhead01 wrote:
 argonak wrote:
If I was in charge of the orks codex, I'd focus on the ramshackle style of gameplay, and harken back to 2nd edition. Green tide is a fine way to play, but it should absolutely not be the only way to play.

First I'd remove the combat bonus for having large groups of ork boyz, because it makes players think they should only be running orks in hordes. Next, I'd give ork boyz a special rule for riding in transports, that lets them attack while still inside the trukk or wagon. That would make trukks supremely useful, because you could cruise straight up to the enemy and charge right into him. While using this special rule, the orks would be targetable in CC however.

While I agree it shouldn't be the only way to play I don't like that proposed change. I for one am really enjoying how "good" my mobs of boys are on the table now. reducing the number of attacks would increase the number of models I would want on the field. That said my last list had one mob of 10 shoota boys and 1 mob of 30 boys and the rest of the army was dreads and Artillery and other shooty stuff and trukks. Things were challenging but over all went well enough.
I think when it comes to lists a lot of people are afraid to take a risk when picking units that don't appear "optimal".

depending on how this chapter approved shakes out I'm looking at taking more trukk boys and more flash gitz. And if the rumored mob up turns out to be true losing the green tide ability would hurt a list build around smaller units. I want to keep every tool I've been given to use.

I think part of the +1 Attack at 20+ models ability is to offset the fact that it is hard to get all of a huge mob of Boyz into combat. In my anecdotal experience more often than not I have about half my big mob actually fighting, but I might just be bad at positioning. I can see an argument being made that the problem of not getting to attack with all the Boyz is actually a good thing and helps out elite close combat units. Things like Terminators would be harder to bring down through weight of dice, while right now Terminators are easy for my Boyz to kill in close combat and their Storm Bolters scare me more than their power fists. I can also see the argument that Mob Rule is advantage enough to take big mobz.

I do think it could be a good thing to have different Troop choices of Boyz that got different benefits, including ones that weren't dependent on unit size. The ones that aren't dependent on unit size would probably need to be not as good of a bonus as +1 Attack to offset the advantage of still working while the mob size is smaller. Maybe we get Trukk Boyz who's special rule is that they re-roll ones when determining who dies when their vehicle explodes and/or they can add distance to their disembarkation range. Maybe Shoota Boyz get to add +6" to the range if they don't Advance, or maybe instead of +6" they get to re-roll ones. Maybe they even keep the mob-size and get something better like +1 to hit when they have 20+ models.


YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I thought they didn't have a Tyranid rules writer either, that book is both decent and an utter change to the last few - appears they do no how to have a xenos army thats something other than "target"

I like the buffs for large units, goes nicely with the mob rule stuff and provides an incentive for the enemy to split fire against multiple units not just wipe one out before moving on.

Also feels nice without making smaller units also more dangerous.

Expecting something for each of the main clans to allow you to theme a list round a single clan and if the Tyranid book is anything to go by expecting a unit to start actually doing what the fluff says it does as opposed to being unable to do it at all
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

BA feel your pain about not having a rules writer with interest in the faction for the last half decade. It makes the lack of quality really shine through. Here's hoping both our armies get some people who really want to see the army represented on the table and not just phoned in books again.

20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

leopard wrote:
I like the buffs for large units, goes nicely with the mob rule stuff and provides an incentive for the enemy to split fire against multiple units not just wipe one out before moving on.

And if the stratagem rumors are right about being able to combine squads this will help us foil attempts to reduce each unit down to where Mob Rule and Green Tide no longer benefit us.

I've been running a big unit of Boyz with one or two small units of Boyz nearby. The small units help me fill out Brigades cheaply, and they are useful for screening buffing characters and intercepting speed bumps without slowing the big mob down (plus the extra free Nobz are a nice bonus). The big mob is more free to run as fast as possible towards the desired target and is usually still within range to make the small units immune to morale. I haven't played a ton of games yet, but it has seemed to work pretty well so far.

YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Maryland, USA

Azuza001 wrote:We putting any bets when it comes to "warband traits" they will do something stupid like "speed freaks : all orks units with this clan rule gets +1 to their close combat attack rolls" or something completely not speed related?


Hey, it makes perfect sense if you think about a different kind of speed.

M.

Codex: Soyuzki - A fluffy guidebook to my Astra Militarum subfaction. Now version 0.6!
Another way would be to simply slide the landraider sideways like a big slowed hovercraft full of eels. -pismakron
Sometimes a little murder is necessary in this hobby. -necrontyrOG

Out-of-the-loop from November 2010 - November 2017 so please excuse my ignorance!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sweet!!! Leaked images of chapter approved show Orkz getting massive price cuts across the board!!!! We are finally competitive!!!!!

Just kidding, GW screwed us again.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
 
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