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Let me put this in perspective: How many times have you eard, from people outside the warhammer universe (The players), than the Imperium of Man is neccesary to the supervivence of the Human Race? How many people has been conviced as a player that the Imperium needs to be as savage as it is, because otherwise humans could become extint?

What if I told you thats isn't true? That you have feel in the Imperium Propaganda? That most of the proplems that exist in the 41 Millenium are directly a consequence of the Emperor and the Imperium during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy?

The truth is: The reason for the Imperium to be as oppresive and savage is to ensure their own survival, not of humanity.

The human race prospered even in the era of isolation that followed the dark age of technology, known as the age of strife, as empires or civilizations like the Interex and Adrantis Five, prove.
And I know "But this is grimdark!". I know! Thats why I love W40k and the Imperium. I just have done this post to try to open the eyes for some people that appears to be trapt under years and years of imperial propaganda as if they lived in Holy Terra themselves.

The Imperium is the True Devourer, not the Tyranids. The number of races consumed by the Tyranids pales before the immensity of forms of life exterminated by the Imperium.
What do you think?

That you are a traitor and I am calling the nearest Inquisitor

Humanity could most likely do 'okay' without the IoM

But, and I'll admit I'm not a great fluff bunny, without the Astronomican I'm not sure mere FTL would be enough to hold 'humanity' together as a single power, but again if that's a good or bad thing is equally debatable

I think the Imperium, as an organised, united force of humanity is the only way humanity as a whole can survive without allying to anything else.

Sure, humans can survive by making daemonic pacts or joining the Tau, or even in isolated backwater worlds, but they're small fry - no hope of reinforcement without the Astronomicon, no hope of reinforcement if they fight something they simply aren't equipped to deal with. The human empires we have that survived are a small percentage of the ones that were exterminated by xenos, prompting the Emperor to be so anti-xenos, and most of the ones that did survive did so by means of xenos alliance (Interex), or sheer luck/innovation. And even those miniscule percentage of technologically superior survivors have no hope if a Black Crusade came to destroy them.

Personally, the Imperium isn't grimdark because it's hampering humanity,. It's grimdark because that's what humanity needs to survive.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think the Imperium, as an organised, united force of humanity is the only way humanity as a whole can survive without allying to anything else.

Sure, humans can survive by making daemonic pacts or joining the Tau, or even in isolated backwater worlds, but they're small fry - no hope of reinforcement without the Astronomicon, no hope of reinforcement if they fight something they simply aren't equipped to deal with. The human empires we have that survived are a small percentage of the ones that were exterminated by xenos, prompting the Emperor to be so anti-xenos, and most of the ones that did survive did so by means of xenos alliance (Interex), or sheer luck/innovation. And even those miniscule percentage of technologically superior survivors have no hope if a Black Crusade came to destroy them.

Personally, the Imperium isn't grimdark because it's hampering humanity,. It's grimdark because that's what humanity needs to survive.

This is exactly my point. Yeah, without the Imperium, humans wouldn't survive as the prime force on the galaxy, but they'll surely survive even in organiced empires, smaller yes, but empires rise and fall, that doesn't mean the species sucumbs to extintion.
Even in 41M you have many reports of other human empires that exist outside of Imperial borders (One of those was actually destroyed during the Macharius crusade) . And they are capable of space-fly without the Astronomicom. The Tau are developing in the current timeline that type of technology, FTL travel that doesn't needs to enter the Warp or the Astronomicon as a beacon to travel safely.

And Black Crusades are a consequence of the Imperium, so thats back to my first point about the Imperium causing his own dommfall and in the end, humanity is in a worse state because of it

It is not about just surviving. What is the point to just survive?

Also again, the IoM has kept plenty of things in check no matter how horrible and inefficient it may be.

If humanity splintered, then you would have Orks, Chaos, Tyranids and Necrons having their way with the Milky Way with no organized force large enough to oppose them.

'Nuff said

For real, though, I'm in the camp that "humans" would probably go on as a species, but "humanity" as anything approaching a cohesive whole wouldn't last long.

M.

The Imperium is clearly horrible. I find it hard to believe that anyone would consider it necessary for the survival of the human species.

This is the grim darkness of the far future though, in the end humanity is probably doomed anyway, Imperium or not, just like everyone else besides maybe Necrons.

Before the Emperor came, the vast majority of mankind barely lived. Those that weren't killed in the Age of Strife survived mostly as the slaves and playthings of Xeno or Chaos overlords. They were completely without any kind of protection against the myriad threats out there. Sure, there were some Human civilisations that thrived, but they were small and few and far between, easy pickings for Xenos and Chaos.
In order to do more than simply survive, in order to prosper in this hostile galaxy, mankind needs to be united. And unity can only be maintained with an iron hand when you have the insidious forces of Chaos constantly trying to chip away at it. Chaos is a massive threat to entire worlds and even to the Imperium as a whole. It must be rooted out with extreme prejudice, for if even the smallest seed gets left behind it will fester and grow into a tree that bears only disaster as fruit.
So, would mankind survive without the Imperium? Marginally, yes. But no Human wants to be a slave, living a fearful and miserable life without hope. No Human wants to just survive. That is what beasts do. Humans are more than beasts, Humans want to have a life beyond merely surviving. And for that they need protection and prosperity. And for that they need the Imperium.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Before the Emperor came, the vast majority of mankind barely lived. Those that weren't killed in the Age of Strife survived mostly as the slaves and playthings of Xeno or Chaos overlords. They were completely without any kind of protection against the myriad threats out there. Sure, there were some Human civilisations that thrived, but they were small and few and far between, easy pickings for Xenos and Chaos.
In order to do more than simply survive, in order to prosper in this hostile galaxy, mankind needs to be united. And unity can only be maintained with an iron hand when you have the insidious forces of Chaos constantly trying to chip away at it. Chaos is a massive threat to entire worlds and even to the Imperium as a whole. It must be rooted out with extreme prejudice, for if even the smallest seed gets left behind it will fester and grow into a tree that bears only disaster as fruit.
So, would mankind survive without the Imperium? Marginally, yes. But no Human wants to be a slave, living a fearful and miserable life without hope. No Human wants to just survive. That is what beasts do. Humans are more than beasts, Humans want to have a life beyond merely surviving. And for that they need protection and prosperity. And for that they need the Imperium.

You see? This is just factually wrong from a meta-universe point of view. The Interex where a human galactic empire that was much better prepared to fight Chaos that the Imperium has been in all of his existence. They actually teached their population how to avoid Chaos corruption, and they achieved what the Imperium didn't.

I understand that of course, being Warhammer as Grimdark, that "noblebrigth" empire was just there to show us how crazy insane is the Imperium and how they aren't in any shape or form the "good guys" even from the "Humanity supervivence" point of view.

But this is not a conversation about the Imperium being right or wrong in their manners, is a conversation about how from a meta-perspective of the universe, the Imperium isn't actually neccesary to humans to achieve galactic Empires and survive in a hostile galaxy. And how many players just don't see that, believen as another loyal imperial citizen the Imperial in-universe propaganda.

 Galas wrote:
Let me put this in perspective: How many times have you eard, from people outside the warhammer universe (The players), than the Imperium of Man is neccesary to the supervivence of the Human Race? How many people has been conviced as a player that the Imperium needs to be as savage as it is, because otherwise humans could become extint?

Psykers are the real problem. Humanity is spread across a million worlds - so spread out not even the Tyranids could find and eat them all (before they decided to leave the galaxy for richer hunting grounds, anyways). Even then, humanity has enough technological pockets that could exist just fine in interstellar space if they chose. But the specter of rogue psykers would very likely doom all of them, by allowing warp predators into real space.

The IoM was founded to solve that very problem. It's the sole reason the Emperor took over. The IoM gathers the psykers, uses up the weak ones, strengthens the rest, and used the useful ones to gather the emerging new psykers before they can cause problems. It's a horribly pragmatic but necessary system. A single rogue psyker can doom a planet.

it depends on the question realy, if your asking could humanity of survived had the imperium never existed then yes probably as empires like the Interex and Mcrage (ignoring guillimans existence) were already out in space and slowly piecing things back together with there own brand of technology and philosophy, and would have steadily spread.

If your asking could humanity survive if the imperium disappeared then probably not. as so many of the worlds have been indoctrinated into the way things work that its unlikely the scattered remnants would be able to change and innovate either cultural or technologicly. Plus in stead of chaos just having demons and cultists the imperium provided them a proper army in the for of the CSM

Galas wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think the Imperium, as an organised, united force of humanity is the only way humanity as a whole can survive without allying to anything else.

Sure, humans can survive by making daemonic pacts or joining the Tau, or even in isolated backwater worlds, but they're small fry - no hope of reinforcement without the Astronomicon, no hope of reinforcement if they fight something they simply aren't equipped to deal with. The human empires we have that survived are a small percentage of the ones that were exterminated by xenos, prompting the Emperor to be so anti-xenos, and most of the ones that did survive did so by means of xenos alliance (Interex), or sheer luck/innovation. And even those miniscule percentage of technologically superior survivors have no hope if a Black Crusade came to destroy them.

Personally, the Imperium isn't grimdark because it's hampering humanity,. It's grimdark because that's what humanity needs to survive.

This is exactly my point. Yeah, without the Imperium, humans wouldn't survive as the prime force on the galaxy, but they'll surely survive even in organiced empires, smaller yes, but empires rise and fall, that doesn't mean the species sucumbs to extintion.

Until the last of these tiny "empires" is wiped out by a Tyranid Hive Fleet, or an Ork Waaagh!, or is corrupted by a Chaos invasion, or destroyed by Necrons, or erased by the Hrud, or any other possible event.

They survive, but the moment something tries to kill them off, they will not.

Even in 41M you have many reports of other human empires that exist outside of Imperial borders (One of those was actually destroyed during the Macharius crusade) . And they are capable of space-fly without the Astronomicom. The Tau are developing in the current timeline that type of technology, FTL travel that doesn't needs to enter the Warp or the Astronomicon as a beacon to travel safely.

The Tau are also notorious for assimilating other cultures. If humanity began fraternising with other cultures to the level the Tau do, it wouldn't be Humanity, it would be Humans + friends.

The one destroyed in the Macharius Crusade is a perfect example of what I mean - yes, they survive, they get to have their little empire, but when something bigger comes along, they get wiped out with no hope of ever being remembered or restarted. This would inevitably happen to every human "empire" in the galaxy. Space flight isn't the issue - it's moving quickly enough to do so - FTL. The Tau have only managed it because they "skim" on the Warp using reverse engineered technology, and can't travel any great distance with accuracy. A large Empire like the Imperium is impossible without the Astronomican when using Warp travel.

And Black Crusades are a consequence of the Imperium, so thats back to my first point about the Imperium causing his own dommfall and in the end, humanity is in a worse state because of it

Technically, the Black Crusades are caused by the Eldar birthing the Eye of Terror.

However, if the Imperium didn't exist, the Chaos Gods would have used a different race to do exactly the same. Humanity "can" push back against the Black Crusades. They can push back against the Ork hordes. They can push back against Dark Eldar raids. They can push back against Tau expansion, Tyranid Hive Fleets, Necron invasions - any of these would pretty much wipe out a small "Empire".

Galas wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Before the Emperor came, the vast majority of mankind barely lived. Those that weren't killed in the Age of Strife survived mostly as the slaves and playthings of Xeno or Chaos overlords. They were completely without any kind of protection against the myriad threats out there. Sure, there were some Human civilisations that thrived, but they were small and few and far between, easy pickings for Xenos and Chaos.
In order to do more than simply survive, in order to prosper in this hostile galaxy, mankind needs to be united. And unity can only be maintained with an iron hand when you have the insidious forces of Chaos constantly trying to chip away at it. Chaos is a massive threat to entire worlds and even to the Imperium as a whole. It must be rooted out with extreme prejudice, for if even the smallest seed gets left behind it will fester and grow into a tree that bears only disaster as fruit.
So, would mankind survive without the Imperium? Marginally, yes. But no Human wants to be a slave, living a fearful and miserable life without hope. No Human wants to just survive. That is what beasts do. Humans are more than beasts, Humans want to have a life beyond merely surviving. And for that they need protection and prosperity. And for that they need the Imperium.

You see? This is just factually wrong from a meta-universe point of view. The Interex where a human galactic empire that was much better prepared to fight Chaos that the Imperium has been in all of his existence. They actually teached their population how to avoid Chaos corruption, and they achieved what the Imperium didn't.

And allied with aliens, and still got wiped out.
Sure, that IS humans surviving, but not Humanity. If they're reliant on aliens to keep them alive, that's not humans doing the work, proving they can't survive without help.

If you want to prove that "humanity" could survive, show me a human empire that hasn't been destroyed by the Imperium.

I understand that of course, being Warhammer as Grimdark, that "noblebrigth" empire was just there to show us how crazy insane is the Imperium and how they aren't in any shape or form the "good guys" even from the "Humanity supervivence" point of view.

Again, no faction in 40k is "good". But the Imperium is a very good concept, because it shows us that you have you do horrible things to actually survive, and prompts one to question if it's worth living if you have to do that to live.
By having humanity able to thrive without the Imperium removes the struggle from life when there's a clearly better option. At the moment, there's "living doing horrible things, or dying out", but with humanity able to live without the Imperium, there is a third option - "living without doing anything bad". It makes the current Imperium grimdork, not grimdark.

But this is not a conversation about the Imperium being right or wrong in their manners, is a conversation about how from a meta-perspective of the universe, the Imperium isn't actually neccesary to humans to achieve galactic Empires and survive in a hostile galaxy. And how many players just don't see that, believen as another loyal imperial citizen the Imperial in-universe propaganda.

My point is made without the Imperium propaganda. They are the best hope of humanity actually having a legacy and living "freely" in the galaxy - yes, smaller empires will "survive", but that's in the same way that a lone ant survives - no impact, no meaning, constant fear of being crushed by the galaxy-spanning empires that dominate the cosmos. They'd endure, but the moment something large enough came, they'd be dead, and there'd be no living on, no reinforcement, no memory of their existence. That's not living. That's surviving.

The Imperium is the only way to have stability enough to resist the myriad of other threats, maintain cohesion, and make something of HUMANITY as a whole.

You don't need the Imperium as it currently stands with its viewpoint to survive. Indeed if they threw out some of their most extreme doctrine thinking then Humanity could certainly rise up even more than the other factions very quickly.


However at present the Imperium and the unity of humanity is needed to allow humanity not to be swept away by Xeno's threats and Chaos. The thing is changing regimes is very very very rarely done without huge disruption and bloodshed.

So to take the Imperium down chances are you'd either need thousands of years of gradual change in attitudes; or you'd need a massive rebellion. And if humanity fractured in a major way now they'd be left open to total decimation. The core worlds around Sol might well survive as that has a vast concentration in power (unless the split happened there); but the fringe worlds would likely be torn apart.

Without the power and the thread of power from the Imperial fleet and the Marine legions other factions would sweep in on isolated worlds or little alliances of worlds. Orks would run rampant; Eldar would twist things; Tau would bring their Greater Good; Tyranids would feed; Chaos would corrupt etc....




So yes you are right you don't need the doctrines of the Imperium to survive; but at the same time its unlikely that you could break the Imperium and change its whole agenda without another vast rebellion which would likely fracture humanity and leave them very weak and open to being crippled beyond repair as a major power in the universe.

@Sgt_Smudge, the humans that allied with Aliens where a space-living society, not the Interex.
I can't remember they name, the Interex where purely humans.

And, for humans nations that haven't been wipen out by the Imperium:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Severan_Dominate

And theres others, normally without much lore, because they are little mentions of human Empires surviving outside Imperial Bordes and in the fringe parts of the galaxy, but they exist.

And sorry but I can't understand this "Without the Imperium all humans nations will just be destroyed!" argument.
What? Will all Orks just go for the galaxy looking for humans to exterminate them? Or Dark Eldars, or Tyranids? The Imperium faces all of those threats at the same time because they are the Roman Empire of the Galaxy. Without a unified Imperium, other human nations could perfectly survive without fihgting agaisn't all those enemies at once. Humans survived during thousands and thousands of years, making bigger empires than the one the Emperor did during the Dark Age of Technology. And they faced Orks, and other Xenos that are now extint, etc...

And yeah, the Imperium is Grimderp. It is a parody. I know, I know, the lore has become much more serious compared with Rogue Trader but even then, it stills has a good bunch of irony and parody in all of itself.

 Galas wrote:

What? Will all Orks just go for the galaxy looking for humans to exterminate them? Tyranids?

Orks don't want to exterminate, they just want to fight. So if the Imperium is no longer the big target the Orks might ignore them for a while.

Tyranids though are already doing a pretty darn good job of eating their way through chunks of the Imperium. Take away those huge combined fleets and Tyranids could well consume even more! Considering that the Emperor has remained their focus the Tyranids are likely to keep focusing on the Imperium.

That said Orks and Tyranids could remain locked together for a while; Orks wouldn't mind, but the Tyranids might well bypass them

Eldar, Dark Eldar and Tau would do well; they'd have a chance to potentially consolidate and strengthen what they've got. They'd benefit greatly from a fractured Imperium.

Necron its harder to say how it would influence them, but chances are it would allow them to consolidate themselves and rise up upon fringe or lightly allied worlds - giving them far more potential to consolidate their power.



At present there's a rough stalemate between the major powers. If the Imperium fractured that stalemate would end.

Thats my point. Yeah, the human empires will become the new "Tau Empires" equivalents but that doesn't mean they will become extint or just "survive" as others posters have said. They can totally have a meaning, and become important unto themselves. They will just stop being the top-dog of the galaxy. Some other Xenos races will become that, and then Orks, Tyranids, Chaos, etc... will focus it instead of the human empires.

Considering how strong and potent some of the distance clans of humans became during the long night or whatever...I'd say it's very possible some human cultures could thrive - particularly those willing to part with the "baaaah, we don't know how to make things any more, pray to them instead!" silliness.

You know...intellectuals and mechanical geniuses actually allowed to do something. It would just be a crap shoot if an Ork horde or Tyranid hive fleet or Chaos crusade happened on them before they were able to establish defences, etc.

 Galas wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge, the humans that allied with Aliens where a space-living society, not the Interex.
I can't remember they name, the Interex where purely humans.

It was the Interex. Their success pre-Horus was through the intervention of the Eldar who taught them the dangers of Chaos, and I'm sure shared technology with them. Don't forget the Kinebrach that were integrated into their society.

Edit: To answer the OP question. I would say the Imperium is necessary, or at least the original idea of it. It's the unification brought by the Imperium that is necessary, but it's the Ecclesiarchy that I think is debatable given the state of Chaos at this point in the game. The Interex weren't at war with themselves in their prime, and they were willing to work with Horus until Erebus made his moves, so I believe it is possible they would've fallen under the Imperium taking away the workings of Chaos.

Sabre82 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge, the humans that allied with Aliens where a space-living society, not the Interex.
I can't remember they name, the Interex where purely humans.

It was the Interex. Their success pre-Horus was through the intervention of the Eldar who taught them the dangers of Chaos, and I'm sure shared technology with them. Don't forget the Kinebrach that were integrated into their society.

You are right, I forgot about that. But still, claiming that any Human nation that has relations with Xenos besides killing them doesn't count as "human nation", appears to me as a "Not-True-Scotman" fallacy.

I agree, but that doesn't negate the necessity of unification. I count them as a human nation, but hypothetically, if the Imperium were non-human and hostile, the interex would've been wiped out anyways. It's about being the big fish I suppose, and the Imperium is supposed to make humanity the biggest fish in the galaxy. Were their other ways to go about that in the past? I have no doubt, but it was on track at one point, and now humanity is very much between a rock and a hard place.

I edited my first comment to give my thoughts on the original question, if that adds anything (sorry about that).

 Galas wrote:
empires or civilizations like the Interex and Adrantis Five

The fact that they got crushed by the Imperium sort of proves the point of the Imperium.
Individually they are vunerable, but together they can form the most powerful galactic empire around.

 Galas wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge, the humans that allied with Aliens where a space-living society, not the Interex.
I can't remember they name, the Interex where purely humans.

As mentioned above, no, the Interex worked closely with aliens.

And, for humans nations that haven't been wipen out by the Imperium:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Severan_Dominate

Who have only "recently" turned from the Imperium. They're secessionists - not self-grown human empires. When we're talking about independent empires, I assumed we were talking about ones that had built themselves up from nothing, surviving past the Great Crusade from the DAOT. These are pretty much just human rebels from the Imperium - not a self-grown empire.

And theres others, normally without much lore, because they are little mentions of human Empires surviving outside Imperial Bordes and in the fringe parts of the galaxy, but they exist.

Perhaps, but I don't recall seeing this. Still, I'll probably give you the benefit of the doubt on this. All the same, all it takes is a push from a galactic superpower that wants them dead, and they're gone.

And sorry but I can't understand this "Without the Imperium all humans nations will just be destroyed!" argument.
What? Will all Orks just go for the galaxy looking for humans to exterminate them? Or Dark Eldars, or Tyranids? The Imperium faces all of those threats at the same time because they are the Roman Empire of the Galaxy.

No-one really LOOKS for humans - they bump into them on their way. Tyranids look for anything. Orks look for a fight, aka, most empires. Chaos looks to corrupt. Dark Eldar look to raid empires. Eldar would wipe out human empires if they posed a possible threat.

Yes, they're attacked because they're the biggest - but being the biggest means that they have the resources to defend themselves. Sure, by BEING big, it means the odds of an enemy bumping into your borders are higher, but so are your chances of repelling them.

I'll try to put this into an analogy (and will oversimplify to the extreme, so bear with me!) - we have a massive Megalodon (the Imperium), we have some Great White Sharks (the enemies of the Imperium) and lots of Piranhas (these separate human empires). None of these are in groups, allied, or suchlike.
The Megalodon is the biggest thing, and therefore easiest to target and bump into in this body of water. However, it's a Megalodon, and as well as being durable enough, packs a hell of a punch to make anyone else back off or get eaten.
The Great Whites won't be stopped by the Piranhas, but will be beaten off by the Megalodon.
The Piranhas would not stand up to any of the above - no way. Sure, they're small enough that they might not be found, or simply ignored, but if something wanted to kill them (nearby Orks, Tyranids looking for a meal, Necrons nearby, Chaos, etc etc) they'd stand no chance.

As I see it in this situation, the Megalodon is the best thing to be. There's no guarantee that any Great Whites will find you, and even so, you can probably hold your own.

Without a unified Imperium, other human nations could perfectly survive without fihgting agaisn't all those enemies at once.

Again, it's not the all-at-once that's the issue with being a smaller empire. With being a smaller empire, it means their resources are limited, their hope of reinforcement gone- if a big enough enemy attacks them (and plenty of "big enough" enemies exist), then they die. The Imperium endures the cuts from a thousand different attacks from those big enough enemies because it itself is so big.

Humans survived during thousands and thousands of years, making bigger empires than the one the Emperor did during the Dark Age of Technology. And they faced Orks, and other Xenos that are now extint, etc...

And how many others were wiped clean? You know, all the ones which prompted the Emperor to go out and wipe out most Xenos he met? Which of these Empires could hold up to a Hive Fleet? How many of these could withstand a World Engine? Necron reawakening? A galaxy-wide Waaagh! with nothing to stop it - the Beast?

And yeah, the Imperium is Grimderp. It is a parody. I know, I know, the lore has become much more serious compared with Rogue Trader but even then, it stills has a good bunch of irony and parody in all of itself.

The Imperium is only grimderp when you assume that there's a "better way". To be honest, I don't believe that humanity as a whole could survive alone in the galaxy without the Imperium.

If you believe that the Imperium is NECESSARY for human existence, it becomes Grimdark.

I'm not discussing that theres a "better way" for the existence of the imperium. There isn't. If humanity wants to be the bigger fish, they need to do what the Imperium does.

But that was exactly my point. The Imperium doesn't do what they do to ensure the supervivence of humanity. Humanity would survive and flourish without the Imperium. Yeah, in smaller and more volatile ways, I'll grant that, but they'll endure still.
The Imperium does what they do to ensure the supervivence of Imperium, of the Superpower and the work of the Emperor.

I believe humanity could survive alone in the galaxy without the Imperium because it has done it 30.000 years before the existence of the Imperium and others have survive the full 40.000 outside of Imperial influence (Not talking even about other empires outside Imperial borders, but the many planets, sistems, etc... that are actually "lost" inside or near imperial galactic territory)

 Galas wrote:
But that was exactly my point. The Imperium doesn't do what they do to ensure the supervivence of humanity. Humanity would survive and flourish without the Imperium. Yeah, in smaller and more volatile ways, I'll grant that, but they'll endure still.
The Imperium does what they do to ensure the supervivence of Imperium, of the Superpower and the work of the Emperor.

I would disagree - the Imperium does what it does to ensure unity. Unity is attained here via the worship of the Emperor/Imperial Creed, but unity is the goal - not worship.

I believe humanity could survive alone in the galaxy without the Imperium because it has done it 30.000 years before the existence of the Imperium and others have survive the full 40.000 outside of Imperial influence (Not talking even about other empires outside Imperial borders, but the many planets, sistems, etc... that are actually "lost" inside or near imperial galactic territory)

See, I don't think I'd class that as humanity surviving. Humans, maybe, but not Humanity.
Plus, these are the tip of the iceberg of human civilizations which were all wiped clean out in the long night. These ones that are left are hardly able to defend themselves (the Imperium has wiped out all the ones they run into (63-19, the Interex, Adrantis)), and simply haven't been discovered. The moment they are, odds are, they're not going to make it.

Humans will remain isolated and go out wink by wink. That's not humanity. Humanity implies unity.

Well. Then is just that we have different concepts for "Humanity".

From a real Earth perspective, Humanity survives even when empires like the Roman, the Macedonian, the Spanish, English, etc... collapse. Humanity doesn't needs "unity" for it to survive and flourish. Some nations will fall, and others will endure more or less time.

I apply the same to the Galaxy. For me, for"Humanity" to survive, implies that at least one Human society survives and flourish, as small as it could be. It doesn't means they need to be unified to be "relevant", at least if we are talking about the supervivence of Humanity. They won't be anymore the big fish of the galaxy, of course.

 Galas wrote:
Well. Then is just that we have different concepts for "Humanity".

From a real Earth perspective, Humanity survives even when empires like the Roman, the Macedonian, the Spanish, English, etc... collapse. Humanity doesn't needs "unity" for it to survive and flourish. Some nations will fall, and others will endure more or less time.

But the only real competition is other humans - there's ONLY humanity in this case. When you throw in aliens and cosmic deities, if humans aren't all supporting and working in the name of preserving humankind together, I don't think I could class it as humanity.

I apply the same to the Galaxy. For me, for"Humanity" to survive, implies that at least one Human society survives and flourish, as small as it could be. It doesn't means they need to be unified to be "relevant", at least if we are talking about the supervivence of Humanity. They won't be anymore the big fish of the galaxy, of course.

I think I'd only class one of these empires as Humanity in the situation when there is only one left. If two or more don't have contact, don't know of eachother, don't aid eachother, etc etc - I don't think that's humanity. That's just two human empires. Only when there is one left (or one is on an entirely more powerful status - ie, Imperium of Man) does it become Humanity.

But I think our differences mostly comes from a semantic difference.

 Galas wrote:

I believe humanity could survive alone in the galaxy without the Imperium because it has done it 30.000 years before the existence of the Imperium and others have survive the full 40.000 outside of Imperial influence

I've seen this a few times in this thread and I'd like to make two points about it. First is that the Emperor was around for those 30 000years. There's absolutely no records of his actions except locking up a shard of the C'tan dragon and being a perfect fit for the description of the omniassah. For all we know he might have been the sole reason humanity managed to take to the stars back then.
The Imperium was designed to counter humanities two previous crises, the dark age of technology and the age of strife. We don't know what humanity was like before the trouble but we do know that crises spanned over at least 15 000 years and that it sucked. As in no communicating between worlds, technology fails and humanity goes feral suck. As in a myriad of alien species (most notably orks) wreck humanity suck. As in all technology litteraly rebelling against its creator suck. As in on every world parents need to start killing their childrens because they are gifted with magic powers, or their world might be doomed suck. The Imperium brought a stop to this suffering and is above all concerned with the defence of its citizens and the gathering of psykers. There where a few worlds with functioning human societies, but the vast majority was damadged with humanity living like in the dark ages. The Imperium has actually uplifted it's own species on numerous planets on numerous ocassions.
The second point is that the Emperor straight up said that he needed to unite humanity or it would go extinct. He never specifies how and we don't know if it's true. It's the closest we come to a straight answer to this post though. The Emperor: the 60 000 year old most powerfull psyker in the galaxy says "humanity is going extinct unless I prevent it". Take that however you will. (the source is the last church on Terra)

Also while not completly relevant to the subject, the Imperium is not what the Emperor intended. He planned for an empire ruled by reason and logic. By his decree the great crusade was chronicled by poets, artists and musicians. He wanted to create an utopia. It didn't work out.

You are wrong.

Imperium is the only way in the 41st millenium for humanity.

This doesn't need to be explained more elaborately.

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 RedCommander wrote:
You are wrong.

Imperium is the only way in the 41st millenium for humanity.

This doesn't need to be explained more elaborately.

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The Imperium is monstrous. Humanity's only good future is as part of the Tau Empire, serving the Greater Good.