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I imagine anyone who visits this place regularly has probably heard this schpeel or one just like it a billion times already, so feel free to ignore me. I'm under no illusions that I'm trodding unexplored territory here. I stopped playing 40K about 8 years ago as I was just tired of my friend's Eldar running circles around my marines like they were nothing. Marines frankly just couldn't move and shoot, I tried Terminators simply for the reason they were one of the few units that could equip assault weapons so they could move and shoot farther than 12". We played about 10 matches, one draw, the rest were just embarrassing slaughters. I'm willing to admit that he's a better player than me but whatever combo I tried just failed miserably.

I think 8th Ed is a good one, I'm very happy Marine infantry has the ability to move around a bit and shoot, both in the same round now. I like how they've made vehicles into units with the same stat blocks instead of a whole separate mini system to fight with. But I've been reading the boards about Eldar and I just couldn't see how they can field so many awesome units, so today I bought the codex and I am shocked at all the built in advantages. To name a few:

1) Eldar Fusion Gun is the same stats as the Marine Melta Gun, and they cost the same. That is balance. However, the Bright Lance which is basically the same as the Multi Melta, is 7 pts cheaper and has 50% more range. That is not balanced. For the record, the Marines need to spend 13pts for the Tac Marine or 16pts for the Sternguard to gear a melta, while the Eldar Fire Dragon costs 5pts, and also doesn't eat the -1 penalty to hit for firing assault after advancing, so this seeming parity in cost/ability is actually quite heavily skewed towards Eldar, resulting in it not being balanced.

2) Space Marine Chapter Tactics apply to only infantry, bikers, Dreadnoughts, while Eldar Craftworld traits apply to their entire Detachment. That is not balanced. Honestly, of all the "balance" issues, you'd think this one would be a no brainer, but still they tilt it heavily towards Eldar. I'd like my speeders, tanks, transports, fliers to get to get that bonus too, but apparently the folks at GW think just Eldar should have that.

3) Eldar Wraithlords have higher T, more wounds, more speed, and a free but functional CCW with strong AP and wound values, while the Marine Dreadnought is slower, softer, and has to buy a very expensive CCW or simply go without and hope they don't get tied up for the remainder of the fight with any 5 man squad with a 4+ or better save.

4) Eldar squad leaders have +1A like most squad leaders, but also +1W, along a random additional useful ability based on what type of Exarch it is, which others don't get. Not balanced.

5) Space Marine scouts have to pay thru the nose to include "scout" gear. Putting them at 50% more expense than Eldar Rangers who get their sniper rifles for free and their cloaks included, who's cloaks not only add to cover save but come with an awesome -1 to Hit as well. Lovely. Also, not balanced.

6) For 2 more points than a Marine pays for a just a Missile Launcher, Dark Reapers get a better weapon AND the awesome unit that fires it, hitting on 3+ no matter what, with a solid 3+ armor save to boot. And all the units in the squad can take it. Want that 10 man squad to get the most from whatever guarantee-to-hit/wound buff your dirt cheap psykers are going to slap on it? No wasted space there.

7) Prism Tank have 3 useful firing profiles and shoot twice while still moving half their 16" speed? Gimme a break.

Some of this stuff is pretty subjective, and I get that they need to differentiate the races, but some of it isn't. When you give one group like the Eldar the clear superiority in both numbers AND quality on gear and units that have direct analogues in other armies, you've messed something up. I really don't know why Eldar don't run the tables at tournaments. I can think of 3 or 4 combinations of Eldar units, fluffy ones even, that would be all but unstoppable by anything other than a purpose built army. I can think of several more that are just absurd yet legal(1500pts, 50x Dark Reapers + Eldrad) that I honestly don't even know what anyone would bring up to stop.

Crybaby rant over, GO MARINES!

1) No, having guns in different codex costing the same is not balance. Having guns costing the same for different units in the same codex isn't even balanced. The cost of weapons and units should be based in the coherence of the force. I'm not gonna expect Tau meele units to be as point efficient as Genestealer or Khorne Berzerkers.

2)With this I agree, but I'm not gonna explain myself again because all that could be said about this, has been said already.

3) I don't agree with this. The Space Marine Dreadnought is, by his point, mathematically better than the Wraithlord. But, whats the problem with the Wraithlord being more powerfull than a Dreadnought, if they have different costs?

4) This is nonsense. They are a special kind of unit champion. Whats the problem with that.

5) I believe Eldar should have better scouts and snipers than space marines, so I'm totally fine with Eldar Pathfinders being better than SM Scouts, with or without Sniper Rifles.

6) Dark Reapers are a little busted right now, but thats doesn't has anything to do with SM.

7) Those seem a little over the top right now too. But again, nothing to do with SM.

1)
Brightlance is the LasCannon equivelent, not the MultiMelta equivelent. It doesn't have the Melta quasi-rule (Melta weapons can roll 2 dice and take the higher on the damage roll in half range).

Compared to the LC, it's -1 S -12" range, +1 AP, and a little cheaper. It's hard to call the Brightlance a win over the Lascannon.

2)
Yeah, it's unbalanced. But Alaitoc didn't get Raven Guard's Infiltrate, so there's that. That would have been truly broken.

3)
Dreads have better ranged weapons, and don't degrade. A kitted Dread and an kitted Wraithlord cost about the same, and can perform at about the same. Give the Dread a CCW and TLLC, and give the Wraithlord a sword and 2xBL and they cost the same.

4) Eldar Exarchs are *not* sarges. First, they are exemplars of the shrine, not squad leaders. They do not give +1 LD. They are not just more-experienced Eldar. Aspect Warriors are Eldar wearing armor. Exarchs are armor wearing a now-joined Eldar. They are not physically the same in the way that a SM Sarge is the same as a SM Battle Brother. They should have to pay for their Exarchs, but don't confuse them for Sarges.

5) Rangers only get those for free if you don't count the 4 points they pay over Guardians to get them. They're S/T 3 5+ base. Scouts are S/T 4 4+ base. Of course the Scouts should pay more.

6) Reapers are OP. No argument there. The "guarentee" powers do have some downsides, and the character-buffs SMs have have some upsides. Not enough to make Reapers balanced, but they exist.

7) Even firing twice, the Fire Prism does much less to damage to a heavy target than a LasPred. It has three modes, but any one of them is inferior to the equivelent with one fire mode.

CWE is OP, but some of these points are offbase.

I do think CWE are going to run tournies. Although not with Eldrad.

Marines without Guilliman are bottom tier in 8th edition. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Eldar are top tier. As one would expect. There's a lot of reasons for this.

Marines without Guilliman in tournaments - lucky to be in top 50.
Eldar - Routinely in top 10.

Make sure you specify "Of the codecies, if you ignore AdMech and GK" when saying SM are bottom tier. We don't need another superthread about how SM are the worst, except for half the armies, and except for another half the armies.

Bharring wrote:
Make sure you specify "Of the codecies, if you ignore AdMech and GK" when saying SM are bottom tier. We don't need another superthread about how SM are the worst, except for half the armies, and except for another half the armies.

I can't be expected to include GK in any balance discussions if GW won't make the same commitment.

It's tautalogical that they're bottom tier, if you consider anyone worse to not be in a tier.

Bharring wrote:
It's tautalogical that they're bottom tier, if you consider anyone worse to not be in a tier.

How do you rate an army that isn't even represented on the tables?

And GK + 1000 points of Imperial Guard, fishing for "Best GK Player" doesn't make a faction represented.

In all seriousness, i'm beginning to believe the imperial guard player argument that GK aren't meant to be an army.

Call me when Imperial Fists crack the top 50 in a tournament.

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Make sure you specify "Of the codecies, if you ignore AdMech and GK" when saying SM are bottom tier. We don't need another superthread about how SM are the worst, except for half the armies, and except for another half the armies.

I can't be expected to include GK in any balance discussions if GW won't make the same commitment.

What about AdMech? They're obviously intended to be a real army unlike Grey Knights. Though admittedly AdMech turned out really well in Chapter Approved and might do better (emphasis on "might").

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Make sure you specify "Of the codecies, if you ignore AdMech and GK" when saying SM are bottom tier. We don't need another superthread about how SM are the worst, except for half the armies, and except for another half the armies.

I can't be expected to include GK in any balance discussions if GW won't make the same commitment.

What about AdMech? They're obviously intended to be a real army unlike Grey Knights. Though admittedly AdMech turned out really well in Chapter Approved and might do better (emphasis on "might").

AdMech at least has a cool monofaction build, which involves their main man who offers something besides "REROLLS LOL" and they're insulated against future nerfhammers. I can't envision a smite nerf not hurting Grey Knights, and as we've seen, Guilliman list popularity has already hurt every other incarnation of power armored genetically mutated bros.

The Cawlbot gunline isn't winning anything though. It's not even placing. Whether or not a build is "cool" has nothing to do with its placement on a tier list, the Morty/Magnus power couple is dumb as gak and its still a top tier build.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Cawlbot gunline isn't winning anything though. It's not even placing. Whether or not a build is "cool" has nothing to do with its placement on a tier list, the Morty/Magnus power couple is dumb as gak and its still a top tier build.

Look i'm not here to defend the current state of the game.

It's patently absurd that chaos has multiple top-tier lists and the natural counter army only shows up when it's soup'd into IG.

Insert BERT DER FLERFF argument here:

Argument: Space Marines are the worst codex army in the game with the exception of Grey Knights who are discounted as a non-army. They are a mono-build faction that relies on a singular, super-powerful character choice that has been slipping out of winning tables in recent months as new codexes have been released.

Rebuttal: Adeptus Mechanicus is worse; they are similarly mono-build and reliant on their super-powerful character choice, except they have never appeared at top tables and didn't even get the chance to slip out.

Counter-argument: Yeah but Cawl's canticles gimmick is cool.

I don't understand how you don't see how your argument doesn't hold up.

....I'm sure I should take unsupported claims of what is and isn't balance from a dude whose main premise for the imbalance is that Eldar and marines were imbalanced 9 years ago and who hasn't seemed to play a single actual game against them in 8th. that's probably a good indicator that he is infallible and knows exactly what he's talking about.

1) I really can't agree here. Fire dragons are a glass cannon. Marines are not. They have different stats and different uses.

2) Totally agree here. Having flyers zipping all over with -2 to hit because they are suddenly Alaitoc ranger flyers is both ridiculous and broken.

3) Dreadnaughts are actually pretty solid. And venerables are better than wraithlords any day of the week.

4) Nothing unbalanced about Eldar squad leaders.

5) Again, scouts are solid. Maybe Rangers are a bit better?

6+7) Dark reapers are definitely a bit too powerful for their cost. I am not sure about prisms. Haven't seen them fielded yet.

8) Another clear imbalance is the difference between Auspex Scan and Forewarned Stratagems. Pretty huge.

Dear space marine player, go suck on chapter approved. At least you have a codex.

Thank you,
From everyone still using an index.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Argument: Space Marines are the worst codex army in the game with the exception of Grey Knights who are discounted as a non-army. They are a mono-build faction that relies on a singular, super-powerful character choice that has been slipping out of winning tables in recent months as new codexes have been released.

Rebuttal: Adeptus Mechanicus is worse; they are similarly mono-build and reliant on their super-powerful character choice, except they have never appeared at top tables and didn't even get the chance to slip out.

Counter-argument: Yeah but Cawl's canticles gimmick is cool.

I don't understand how you don't see how your argument doesn't hold up.

I'm not having a serious discussion about balance in this thread. This was a thread comparing Eldar to Marines.

AdMech are obviously hurting. But they are placing in tournaments without a gut wrenching pile of IG soup, on the same overall level as GK WITH soup. I believe they are also on the same level of non-Guilliman marines.

Anyway this is a pointless discussion.

Without Guilliman can marines stand up to Eldar? No. Not even close.

I love how the OP conveniently forgot to mention things like assault cannon Razorbacks, Guileman, being able to ally with Imperium, and Stormravens.

I could make any codex sound better than another if I cherry-picked my facts, too. I mean, Grey Knight units are *all psykers*! How is that balanced?! (/s)

clownshoes wrote:
Dear space marine player, go suck on chapter approved. At least you have a codex.

Thank you,
From everyone still using an index.

I imagine one your codex drops you'll beat marines 7 ways till Sunday...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I love how the OP conveniently forgot to mention things like assault cannon Razorbacks, Guileman, being able to ally with Imperium, and Stormravens.

I could make any codex sound better than another if I cherry-picked my facts, too. I mean, Grey Knight units are *all psykers*! How is that balanced?! (/s)

Well their smite is reduced to a 12" range and capped at 1 mortal wound for starters. Granted a brother captain can, I think, double the range of smites.
They increased the cost of all those things you also cherry picked, just sayin.

Give all combinations of ADEPTUS ASTARTES/HERETIC ASTARTES INFRANTY/BIKER +1 wound. Helps line infantry and doesn't help the stuff that's already good.

 fraser1191 wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I love how the OP conveniently forgot to mention things like assault cannon Razorbacks, Guileman, being able to ally with Imperium, and Stormravens.

I could make any codex sound better than another if I cherry-picked my facts, too. I mean, Grey Knight units are *all psykers*! How is that balanced?! (/s)

Well their smite is reduced to a 12" range and capped at 1 mortal wound for starters. Granted a brother captain can, I think, double the range of smites.
They increased the cost of all those things you also cherry picked, just sayin.

The joke

Your head

Even with guilliman we are getting slaughtered at tournies.

The suggestion of "just add IG" are just a step above "well just play a different army."

And the "well at least you guys have a codex" cries are getting old. At least you have hope things will get better for you. And if they do get better you know who they get worse for, yeah those armies with Codexes that are terrible (GK + SM).

I hesitate to throw Cawlbots in because there are rumors of some crazy forgeworld to the rescue cash grab but as they stand now I'd agree they are worse that Guillamarines.

I'm holding out hope for primarchs for all of the chapters (since GW has shown they don't mind these models being over-powered and undercosted)...

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I love how the OP conveniently forgot to mention things like assault cannon Razorbacks, Guileman, being able to ally with Imperium, and Stormravens.

I could make any codex sound better than another if I cherry-picked my facts, too. I mean, Grey Knight units are *all psykers*! How is that balanced?! (/s)

Well their smite is reduced to a 12" range and capped at 1 mortal wound for starters. Granted a brother captain can, I think, double the range of smites.
They increased the cost of all those things you also cherry picked, just sayin.

The joke

Your head

Maybe once people stop echoing this same line it'll be a joke...

I think it would suffice to say - go read pretty much any Codex and compare it to Space Marines and you'll come back and type a similar thread.

Eldar went from complete garbage in Index form to very strong (I'd say outside of Alaitoc not amazeballs, but potent and capable). Big deal.

>In b4 this dissolves into another "just ally in Guard" and "Guard are OP" thread, but anyway.

On topic:
OP, why are you not used to this now? Eldar have always been better than the other codexs by a decent margin throughout the games history, Baring that one brief moment in 4th when they where merely good and not gamebreaking (and boy did we know about it - "Eldar are unplayable and broken", "Eldar nerfed to useless" threads abound). Just look at 6th and 7th with the Scatbikes and Wraithbrigade, Orthe codex that basically had not bad units (or at least 'bad' by other factions standards).
You do have some valid points, such as the Fire Prism being an unholy mess of death and terror (and people still conplain about the Russ, really?) and the Dark Reapers being a bit iffy, but for the most part your complaints come across as a knee jerk reaction.

The Dreadnought is amazingly good, Scouts are decent and the Bright Lance is more of a weak lascannon than a cheap melta gun.
Read a bit more and try to do a real comparison before you post, it might help your case a bit better (not that I can talk).

Bharring wrote:
1)
Brightlance is the LasCannon equivelent, not the MultiMelta equivelent. It doesn't have the Melta quasi-rule (Melta weapons can roll 2 dice and take the higher on the damage roll in half range).

Compared to the LC, it's -1 S -12" range, +1 AP, and a little cheaper. It's hard to call the Brightlance a win over the Lascannon.

2)
Yeah, it's unbalanced. But Alaitoc didn't get Raven Guard's Infiltrate, so there's that. That would have been truly broken.

3)
Dreads have better ranged weapons, and don't degrade. A kitted Dread and an kitted Wraithlord cost about the same, and can perform at about the same. Give the Dread a CCW and TLLC, and give the Wraithlord a sword and 2xBL and they cost the same.

4) Eldar Exarchs are *not* sarges. First, they are exemplars of the shrine, not squad leaders. They do not give +1 LD. They are not just more-experienced Eldar. Aspect Warriors are Eldar wearing armor. Exarchs are armor wearing a now-joined Eldar. They are not physically the same in the way that a SM Sarge is the same as a SM Battle Brother. They should have to pay for their Exarchs, but don't confuse them for Sarges.

5) Rangers only get those for free if you don't count the 4 points they pay over Guardians to get them. They're S/T 3 5+ base. Scouts are S/T 4 4+ base. Of course the Scouts should pay more.

6) Reapers are OP. No argument there. The "guarentee" powers do have some downsides, and the character-buffs SMs have have some upsides. Not enough to make Reapers balanced, but they exist.

7) Even firing twice, the Fire Prism does much less to damage to a heavy target than a LasPred. It has three modes, but any one of them is inferior to the equivelent with one fire mode.

CWE is OP, but some of these points are offbase.

I do think CWE are going to run tournies. Although not with Eldrad.

1) No its not the LC equivalent, it is the Multimelta equivalent. The melta quasi rule comes in exactly once per melta per fight. It is irrelevant. If the SM Hvy Weapon list included a BL for 20 points over a MM at 27, you'd never see any, ANY, marine army take a MM. Hell you barely see them now. And yea, the LC has 12" more range, but I think we can all agree the 12" between 12-24 is a lot more important than 24-36, and 36-48 is even less critical. I never called a BL over a LC, I called it a win over the MM. Which it is, hands down.

3) Yes, that is my point. You kit both the Wraithlord and Dread to roughly equal firepower, they cost almost the same, yet the wraithlord will be cheaper. ALSO, the Wraith is 2" faster, has +1T, and +2W over the Dread. That is my issue.

4) Yes, they are "Sarges". You have an infantry unit, their leader is a bit tougher for the same points. That little bit tougher they are is more for Eldar. They get more. If I waved a magic wand and said all Marine Sgt also get +1W you'd agree that was worth something? Would change their value on the board? Of course it would, because it's more.

5) Are you seriously using another Eldar unit to justify how much more Rangers pay? As to the importance of the extra S/T and armor do you really think that is the primary factor in picking a stealthed long range sniper unit? And even if it was, we are talking 50% more. You tell me you would stack 30 Rangers vs. 20 Scouts?

6) A Las Pred doesn't have the option to pop a tank on round 1, then fire 2D6 S6 AP -3 D1 shots against a mob unit the next. You know what fires 2D6 S6 shots at AP -3 in the Marine arsenal? Nothing, nothing at all does that. A marine army would pay 155pts just for that, let alone the ability to rip into tanks.

Gwarok wrote:

Bharring wrote:
1)
Brightlance is the LasCannon equivelent, not the MultiMelta equivelent. It doesn't have the Melta quasi-rule (Melta weapons can roll 2 dice and take the higher on the damage roll in half range).

Compared to the LC, it's -1 S -12" range, +1 AP, and a little cheaper. It's hard to call the Brightlance a win over the Lascannon.

2)
Yeah, it's unbalanced. But Alaitoc didn't get Raven Guard's Infiltrate, so there's that. That would have been truly broken.

3)
Dreads have better ranged weapons, and don't degrade. A kitted Dread and an kitted Wraithlord cost about the same, and can perform at about the same. Give the Dread a CCW and TLLC, and give the Wraithlord a sword and 2xBL and they cost the same.

4) Eldar Exarchs are *not* sarges. First, they are exemplars of the shrine, not squad leaders. They do not give +1 LD. They are not just more-experienced Eldar. Aspect Warriors are Eldar wearing armor. Exarchs are armor wearing a now-joined Eldar. They are not physically the same in the way that a SM Sarge is the same as a SM Battle Brother. They should have to pay for their Exarchs, but don't confuse them for Sarges.

5) Rangers only get those for free if you don't count the 4 points they pay over Guardians to get them. They're S/T 3 5+ base. Scouts are S/T 4 4+ base. Of course the Scouts should pay more.

6) Reapers are OP. No argument there. The "guarentee" powers do have some downsides, and the character-buffs SMs have have some upsides. Not enough to make Reapers balanced, but they exist.

7) Even firing twice, the Fire Prism does much less to damage to a heavy target than a LasPred. It has three modes, but any one of them is inferior to the equivelent with one fire mode.

CWE is OP, but some of these points are offbase.

I do think CWE are going to run tournies. Although not with Eldrad.

1) No its not the LC equivalent, it is the Multimelta equivalent. The melta quasi rule comes in exactly once per melta per fight. It is irrelevant. If the SM Hvy Weapon list included a BL for 20 points over a MM at 27, you'd never see any, ANY, marine army take a MM. Hell you barely see them now. And yea, the LC has 12" more range, but I think we can all agree the 12" between 12-24 is a lot more important than 24-36, and 36-48 is even less critical. I never called a BL over a LC, I called it a win over the MM. Which it is, hands down.

3) Yes, that is my point. You kit both the Wraithlord and Dread to roughly equal firepower, they cost almost the same, yet the wraithlord will be cheaper. ALSO, the Wraith is 2" faster, has +1T, and +2W over the Dread. That is my issue.

4) Yes, they are "Sarges". You have an infantry unit, their leader is a bit tougher for the same points. That little bit tougher they are is more for Eldar. They get more. If I waved a magic wand and said all Marine Sgt also get +1W you'd agree that was worth something? Would change their value on the board? Of course it would, because it's more.

5) Are you seriously using another Eldar unit to justify how much more Rangers pay? As to the importance of the extra S/T and armor do you really think that is the primary factor in picking a stealthed long range sniper unit? And even if it was, we are talking 50% more. You tell me you would stack 30 Rangers vs. 20 Scouts?

6) A Las Pred doesn't have the option to pop a tank on round 1, then fire 2D6 S6 AP -3 D1 shots against a mob unit the next. You know what fires 2D6 S6 shots at AP -3 in the Marine arsenal? Nothing, nothing at all does that. A marine army would pay 155pts just for that, let alone the ability to rip into tanks.

It seems like you're trying to pick hairs and exaggerate to make your point, but it's simply not accurate. For example:

6 - You are *vastly* overstating the firepower if you think a fire prism is going to frequently "pop a tank on round 1." Even with both shots, it's only going to pump out an average of something like 3-4 wounds against the average tank. A las pred is going to do about double that.

Perhaps your "hysterical" rant would do with a dose of calm reality. I mean, you're here trying to argue that bright lances aren't lascannon analogues, but of melta...? Dafuq...?

Edit: as an aside, I think this is why so many people dislike SM players. Despite their special snowflake treatment and blatantly OP models, a loud few never stop complaining while the rest of us just want to have a fun game.

 Galas wrote:
1) No, having guns in different codex costing the same is not balance. Having guns costing the same for different units in the same codex isn't even balanced. The cost of weapons and units should be based in the coherence of the force. I'm not gonna expect Tau meele units to be as point efficient as Genestealer or Khorne Berzerkers.

100% agree. The alternative is to having 15 different armies all with the same units and costs. This relates to the theme for the army; it’s how GW can make different armies feel different on the table.

This reminds me of a friend of mine, who is mainly a marine player. He was shocked that dire avengers are only 12 points, as their guns are "so much better than bolters". He still thinks they are way better than tactical Marines. I guess he has a point if you completely ignore the strength, toughness and save characteristics, and their lack of special weapons (I think they're reasonably balanced, not necessarily better/worse).

My point: Eldar rules and buffs can seem powerful, I get that, but keep in mind that the units receiving these effects are generally not that powerful/tough (the nasty ones currently are reapers, shining spears and the flyers afaik). If it seems powerful, try mathing it out. This usually gives me some perspective (or sometimes confirms something as being very powerful, but then at least my cries of "omg so op nerf now plix" are less subjective).



Sidenote: fire prisms only become competitive (if that) when you take at least 2 and use a 1cp stratagem. A single stationary prism is flat out worse than a laspred. The profiles are a trap; the lance is almost always worse than the d3 shots version, and there are far more efficient ways to kill meqs (so the dispersed profile is hardly ever used too). You expect to use the middle profile with these tanks.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

Gwarok wrote:

Bharring wrote:
1)
Brightlance is the LasCannon equivelent, not the MultiMelta equivelent. It doesn't have the Melta quasi-rule (Melta weapons can roll 2 dice and take the higher on the damage roll in half range).

Compared to the LC, it's -1 S -12" range, +1 AP, and a little cheaper. It's hard to call the Brightlance a win over the Lascannon.

2)
Yeah, it's unbalanced. But Alaitoc didn't get Raven Guard's Infiltrate, so there's that. That would have been truly broken.

3)
Dreads have better ranged weapons, and don't degrade. A kitted Dread and an kitted Wraithlord cost about the same, and can perform at about the same. Give the Dread a CCW and TLLC, and give the Wraithlord a sword and 2xBL and they cost the same.

4) Eldar Exarchs are *not* sarges. First, they are exemplars of the shrine, not squad leaders. They do not give +1 LD. They are not just more-experienced Eldar. Aspect Warriors are Eldar wearing armor. Exarchs are armor wearing a now-joined Eldar. They are not physically the same in the way that a SM Sarge is the same as a SM Battle Brother. They should have to pay for their Exarchs, but don't confuse them for Sarges.

5) Rangers only get those for free if you don't count the 4 points they pay over Guardians to get them. They're S/T 3 5+ base. Scouts are S/T 4 4+ base. Of course the Scouts should pay more.

6) Reapers are OP. No argument there. The "guarentee" powers do have some downsides, and the character-buffs SMs have have some upsides. Not enough to make Reapers balanced, but they exist.

7) Even firing twice, the Fire Prism does much less to damage to a heavy target than a LasPred. It has three modes, but any one of them is inferior to the equivelent with one fire mode.

CWE is OP, but some of these points are offbase.

I do think CWE are going to run tournies. Although not with Eldrad.

1) No its not the LC equivalent, it is the Multimelta equivalent. The melta quasi rule comes in exactly once per melta per fight. It is irrelevant. If the SM Hvy Weapon list included a BL for 20 points over a MM at 27, you'd never see any, ANY, marine army take a MM. Hell you barely see them now. And yea, the LC has 12" more range, but I think we can all agree the 12" between 12-24 is a lot more important than 24-36, and 36-48 is even less critical. I never called a BL over a LC, I called it a win over the MM. Which it is, hands down.

3) Yes, that is my point. You kit both the Wraithlord and Dread to roughly equal firepower, they cost almost the same, yet the wraithlord will be cheaper. ALSO, the Wraith is 2" faster, has +1T, and +2W over the Dread. That is my issue.

4) Yes, they are "Sarges". You have an infantry unit, their leader is a bit tougher for the same points. That little bit tougher they are is more for Eldar. They get more. If I waved a magic wand and said all Marine Sgt also get +1W you'd agree that was worth something? Would change their value on the board? Of course it would, because it's more.

5) Are you seriously using another Eldar unit to justify how much more Rangers pay? As to the importance of the extra S/T and armor do you really think that is the primary factor in picking a stealthed long range sniper unit? And even if it was, we are talking 50% more. You tell me you would stack 30 Rangers vs. 20 Scouts?

6) A Las Pred doesn't have the option to pop a tank on round 1, then fire 2D6 S6 AP -3 D1 shots against a mob unit the next. You know what fires 2D6 S6 shots at AP -3 in the Marine arsenal? Nothing, nothing at all does that. A marine army would pay 155pts just for that, let alone the ability to rip into tanks.

It seems like you're trying to pick hairs and exaggerate to make your point, but it's simply not accurate. For example:

6 - You are *vastly* overstating the firepower if you think a fire prism is going to frequently "pop a tank on round 1." Even with both shots, it's only going to pump out an average of something like 3-4 wounds against the average tank. A las pred is going to do about double that.

Perhaps your "hysterical" rant would do with a dose of calm reality. I mean, you're here trying to argue that bright lances aren't lascannon analogues, but of melta...? Dafuq...?

Edit: as an aside, I think this is why so many people dislike SM players. Despite their special snowflake treatment and blatantly OP models, a loud few never stop complaining while the rest of us just want to have a fun game.

Well I don't expect a Prism to destroy a tank in one round, very few units can destroy another 13W unit in one round, but it is to be considered a legit threat as opposed to be ignored like say, a bunch of cultists. And in addition to threatening tank units, it has a lot of long range shots to pour down on tough infantry. Its flexible. And a LOT cheaper than a Las Pred, which is my central point here. Marines have units to match Eldar, they just have to spend significantly more points to keep up. And why do you folks confuse the BL with a LC? If I pick an LC it's because I want 48" range and wound on a 3+ against even T8, which the LC does. I wouldn't trade an LC for a BL. I would however trade a Multi Melta in a heartbeat for a Bright Lance. If you went to any SM player and said "hey, would you trade the reroll on damage at half range for another 12" on the Multi Melta, would you take it?" The answer would be every time, HELL YEA. And if I then said ok, you got it pal, also, I'm refunding you 7pts on the weapon, you'd be like, no way man, that's too generous. Multi Meltas should be cheaper is my point, that is why you hardly ever see them. For Eldar, they are cheaper. Like most of their stuff that works more efficenently.