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Had a lot of success when posting here for advice so...there are several units on the WoC I've been having a lot of trouble dealing with:

1. Archaon: every time he rips his way through my entire army, this guy seemingly does everything, hes almost indestructible with a 1+ armour save and 3++, magic resistance 2 so not much to be done there, massed poison doesn't work since it doesn't even auto wound due to his dumb armour. He's super manoeuvrable on his horse, doesn't face terrain penalties, doesn't break and nor do his unit due to his crown. He eats vampire lords easily in duels and throws out enough combat rez to crush through tarpits in one turn, he's LD 10 so even scream spam does nothing to him, I tried to ignore him and hold him up with zombies and skellies last match but he and his unit were deleting a unit per turn, when he reached my lord he popped his sword and murdered him in one round.

2. Skullcrushers: they are incredibly hard to kill for vampires without terrorgheist presence, so many wounds and a 1+ armour save while throwing out so many attacks with a huge threat range is incredibly hard to stop, the only thing I've been able to hold them with so far were crypt horrors and even then only for a turn. I usually focus them with artillery in my chaos dwarf lists but vampires have so little to actually delete them with.

3. Daemon Prince: Hard to keep up with and can easily pick favourable engagements, monsters in combat, can fly into the centre of my army and drop purple suns with impunity, nothing on our roster deals with them particuarly effectively besides crypt ghouls/horrors who still have a nightmare getting through their armour

Overall I find WoC a very hard match up, they have so much more punching power than the vamps and are still incredibly surviable. They cut through my fodder units faster than I can ressurect them, my hard hitting units match up poorly against theirs. The have access to masses of magical weaponry so ethereal spam isn't really viable. Is there any way of actually going toe to toe with them on the offensive? I've been toying with the idea of running a monster heavy list with large units of crypt horrors supported by a beast caster/vanhels caddy, maybe even Blood Knights, despite their poor healing capabilties? Spamming terrogheists doesnt particularly appeal to me since I'm not a fan of their models and they are complete glass cannons. Also I dislike the traditional VC Black Knight bus list

WoC are a pretty tough match up against Vampires. It's definitely an uphill struggle, but essentially you are taking on one of the most powerful armies in the game with one hand tied behind your back because you don't want to take a Black Knight bus or spam Terrogiests.

Unfortunately, those are your best bet to win against a really competitive WoC army. So you can continue to play the army you have and thats totally fine, but honestly don't expect to win. You need to alter your list, or just hope for some luck.

Terrorgiests, Hexwraiths, and Banshees are all the best ways to take care of those 1+ armoured units Chaos just loves to spam. Taking lore of death helps too if you can for doom and darkness.

Obviously there's Grave Guard, Black Knights, Blood Knights and blender lord for a more physical approach.

I haven't played against Archaon in quite a few editions, and he is tough but remember he can still be killing blowed. And he's not unbreakable.

For a more direct approach, you may want to charge Archaon's unit directly with a very large and stacked unit of black knights. The trick is to try to get Archaon in a challenge with one of your unit champions if you can. He can only overkill up to 6. You kill the rest of his unit with the Black Knights and the Blender Vampire Lord and break him with combat res. This can be tricky. If he has another Character in the unit or a unit champion, they can also accept. You could try to Death lore snipe out the unit champion before hand if possible. It's kinda Tricky.

You could also just try to lure him into a giant unit of Grave Guard. I don't care what kind of armour Knights are sporting, a unit of Strength 6 Killing Blow attacks is NOT a place any unit of knights or expensive characters wants to be. Archaon only has to fail 1 3+ invulnerable against a killing blow attack and he's gone. If he rolls hot though, you might just end up losing your entire GG unit.

Your best bet is just to block his charge arcs with Dire Wolves. Just keep him completely boxed in for the whole game and just ignore him as much as you can. Take out everything else. Same thing goes with Skullcrushers.

Daemon Princes are much nastier because they can fly. But you can beat one with a Vampire lord. But two Terrogiests works better.

I just don't find the bus at all enjoyable, I recognise its strengths but it's just not how I ever imagine vampires playing...
I toyed with hexwraiths but there are just too many magical attacks and missiles out there to play them reliably imo.

Archaon and his swords of chaos are all immune to psychology so I believe that makes them immune to the death shriek, he's also LD 10 and I thiiiink he can't be killing blowed, I'm not certain but I believe on his mount he can't be. And yeah, he's not unbreakable but he's almost impossible to beat with flat combat rez, nothing in the vampire list can go toe to toe with him in combat+his 18" rerolling break test bubble in annoying as hel. Yeah he usually runs a sorcerer and a champion in that unit so its almost impossible to reliably get Archaon in a duel.

I did try to box him in but he deployed masses of warhounds and deployed Archaons unit late exactly where he wanted them, the few fodder units I had were being killed faster than they could get in the way.

I think it would be interesting to try something different, I'm not exactly sure how it would work out but running a large, maybe even horde of crypt horrors supported by a mortis engine, a beast caster vampire with staff of damnation and a guy with book of arkhan, 4++ regen save, potentially tonnes of high strength, poisoned attacks, rerolling failed rolls to hit
and high toughness in return that can replenish their ranks every turn. Meeting brute force with brute force sort of thing, I think even Archaon and skullcrushers would struggle to break through that...

Death Shriek does affect units even if immune to Psychology. Especially if you have lore of Death for Doom and Darkness, and possibly a few Vampires sporting Aura of Dark Majesty.

He can be killing blowed. He is only on a daemonic mount, he is a separate profile from his mount, and he's only a human size model. Being a Character on a Monstrous mount is different than being Monstrous Cavalry. For example, a Character mounted on a Juggernaught can be killing blowed, but a Skullcrusher can't, if that makes any sense. He himself isn't immune to it. Unless he's playing the Archaon from the End TImes. Thats a different story, I'd have to check his rules out. I can't remember them.

So basically, he has all of his points tied up in one unit.

Your first priority is to completely eliminate all his chaff. Kill any of his dogs and Marauder Horsemen first. Use Hexwraith slingshots, fell bats, spirit hosts, banshees, bat swarms, and Dire wolves. Use lots and lots of chaff. Take out all his chaff and re-direct/march block/charge block the feth out of that unit. Never engage it. Just kite it the entire game. Thats all you can do. After a few games, he'll get so frustrated, he'll have to change his list.

A single Fellbat can just fly right up to the edge of his unit and re-direct it away from your army. Then just fly another Bat right up there and do it again.

You're right, I was actually looking at the death shriek ability in the monstrous arcanum when I wrote this which cannot target units immune to psychology, I suppose its a good way to whittle away at his unit, I don't see it being particularly effective against the big man himself at LD10

Again, my mistake. I don't actually have the Archaon rules, I assumed he was always on Dorghar and it was just incorporated into his profile since he hasn't been able to be fielded on foot in a long time. It's actually a rather small unit of chaos knights, there were multiple threats on the battlefield- skullcrushers, chimera, khorne halberd warriors, frankly it was a threat overload with Archaon as the speartip.

He uses quite a few dog units as well, mainly khorne hally's for core, other than riding through his swords of chaos I wouldn't have much use for the hexwraiths, it feels incredibly cost inefficient to be using them for chaff killing. I never get wiped I just burn out slowly and end up losing on victory points as none of my units really kill anything efficiently, only crypt horrors and grave guard-assuming they don't get heavily focussed, earn back their points. I usually have 1 T-bat which to be fair often earns back its points, but they are a comparatively tricky model to position effectively. ALL of my units bar massive zombie/skellie blobs melt vs skullcrushers or get ground down slowly.

Essentially what I'm saying is, while my army performs largely how it should, holding up the chaos nasties and trying to minimise their cost efficiency it struggles to finish off units in turn. Chaos and Ogres are the only two armies I really struggle against, I've been easily dismantling every lizardmen/empire/HE's/O&G's/Brets/Beastmen/DE list I have vs'd so far.

My trouble with Ogres I completely understand, I have nothing capable of going toe to toe with the Gutstar and refuse to use purple sun vs them. Frankly I cant be bothered with setting up a whole game knowing that the result will be entirely decided by my purple sun roll....

chaos feels very different though, my chaff doesn't hold vs them, my hammer units don't hammer like theirs and have to spend the game avoiding their hard hitters in order to perform, my lords collapse against theirs and are often forced into unfavourable combats in order to avoid coming into contact with the chaos general.

Next game we are planning on introducing some units from the monstrous arcanum into our games, I'm hoping the Necrofex Colossus with its 3d6+1 (rerollable) strength 8 attacks and LD 10 death shriek should prove a sufficient hammer to crack some of his harder units, the skullcrushers 3 wounds and 1+ armour save is so unbelieably hard for undead to deal with unless your lord is actively in combat with them.

Have you tried using Konrad Von Carstein against Ogres?

For 160 points he has the potential to do 36 wounds in a single round against ogres (if you roll perfectly)

He has hatred, 5 attacks and potential for frenzy if you roll a 4+. His swords do 2 wounds per swing and he has Red Fury which specifically states that you get an additional attack for every WOUND you do. So because his swords do 2 wounds per hit, he actually can double the amount of attacks he makes if he rolls really well.

This obviously pairs nicely with Hellish Vigour.

It's 160 points that your Ogre opponent never saw coming.

Yes, I run him in most of my ogre lists. My opponent killed him both games I ran him with maneaters before he reached combat, a 5+ armour save and 2 wounds is just too squishy. The one game he did get into combat he killed 3 ogres before his unit was wiped in one combat phase, which is impressive but sadly not enough

Sorry to be a cling on but I have issues as well against an End Times chaos list with my Undead Legion list. To be fair my main issue are Ratling cannon armed Rat Ogres (can't remember name) 3d6 shots per model with basically no hit modifiers at all at BS 3 str5 armour piercing is crippling my army. Any ideas?

Also to OP if Archaon is the End Times version from the 5th book then him and his mount are one profile so can't be killing blowed. In terms of skull crushers, I use either a massive zombie tarpit or use Dire wolves or tomb kings horse archers to redirect them away from my main line.

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Sorry to be a cling on but I have issues as well against an End Times chaos list with my Undead Legion list. To be fair my main issue are Ratling cannon armed Rat Ogres (can't remember name) 3d6 shots per model with basically no hit modifiers at all at BS 3 str5 armour piercing is crippling my army. Any ideas?

Call him out on maxing on cheese.

Those things drop terrorgheists, hexwraiths, varghulfs, vargheists, etc at a rate of one per turn. And are tough enough in combat that they can go toe-to-toe with depleted units.

They're just broken for the cost.

Sorry to be the bringer of bad news but Archaon on Dorghar is immune to Killing Blow.

Dorghar is a monstrous beast.

Mounting a character on a monstrous beast changes their unit type to "monstrous cavalry".

Killing Blow only works against infantry, cavalry, and war beasts.

The S6 killing blow will do wonders against the unit of Chaos Knights he'll most likely be in, but it won't kill him in one blow.

EDIT: This is answered in the rulebook FAQ pg 9:

"Q: Is a character mounted on a monster, chariot or monstrous beast
susceptible to the Killing Blow special rule? (p72)
A: No, as the character’s troop type as changes to ‘monster’,
‘chariot’ or ‘monstrous cavalry’ respectively, thereby rendering
Killing Blow ineffective. Only Heroic Killing Blow will work
against these targets."

EDIT2: And skullcrushers are surprisingly easy to deal with, you just have to accept the fact that you'll never kill them. Because they're frenzied they have to overrun so you just use your chaff units angled in such a way that after the crushers kill them they're out of position. They'll have to waste a turn or two getting back into position during which time you've hopefully maneuvered the next chaff unit into position to do it again. Or use that mandatory overrun to set up a flank charge with a hard hitting unit. He'll be fighting back with at most...2 crushers and you'll have a flank, a charge and he'll get no bonus for ranks which should hopefully go a long way towards winning that combat and breaking the unit (cause you won't outright cause wounds to them)
This is frenzy baiting 101 and is something that you'll want/need to get good at for dealing with all kinds of nasty units.

Also...your opponent is a douche if he's bringing all these things against you. Sounds like a (near) maximum cheese list; khorne halberdiers, loads of dogs, archaon, skullcrushers...seriously talk to the guy and work something else out if it's killing all the fun.

And (multiple) Terrorgheists are your friends against all those 1+ armor save but no ward save units. Yes, he's LD10 but there are ways to reduce his LD...or scream at everything not in LD range (remember the trick about getting the skullcrushers to overrun? Get them to overrun out of LD range and then scream them to death - that's one example)

And I wouldn't consider using hexwraiths to kill chaff a "waste" of points. Chaff (and the use/misuse of it) is a HUGE part of Warhammer fantasy and the main reason I love this game so much. Any way you can reliably kill chaff and work towards winning the "chaff war" is a big deal. Once his chaff are dead/gone you can use yours to better effect and it will allow certain units to breathe a little easier.

A bit of threadcromacy but related nonetheless

Going to be playing a couple of games tomorrow trying out a new build and strategy with Vamps as well as a new army (Dark Elves).

After getting sick of always being the punching bag I decided to make a VC list that could really muscle back. I call it the Crypt-star build, it is a similar sort of concept to an Irongut Deathstar but instead of the lore of the Great Maw I will be using a combination of the Lore of Beasts, Lore of Vampires and the Staff of Damnation. Bear in mind we now house rule no Lore of Death and no Lore of Life so dwellers and purple suns are a non-factor. This army will be fighting a Mino-star Beastmen build which should be fun, I'm hoping the constant healing and buffs+the poison on the horrors and sheer choppiness of the Vampire Lord will see me through.

this is the Vamp list:
Lords:
- Vampire Lord: Lv 1, Ogre Blade, Quickblood, Red Fury, Talisman of Preservation, Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Dragonhelm:
- Master Necromancer, channelling staff: Lv 4:
Hero’s:
- Vampire: Lv 2 (Lore of Beasts), Forbidden Lore, Staff of Damnation, Heavy Armour, Shield, Dreadknight, BSB:
- Necromancer: Lv 2, Dispell Scroll:
Core:
- 20 Zombies: Command:
- 30 Crypt Ghouls: Ghast:
- 30 Skeleton Warriors: Command, Gleaming Pennant
- 5 Dire Wolves
Special:
- 18 Crypt Horrors: Haunter
Rare:
- Terrorgheist

Ideally, I'd like to have a mortis engine but I just couldn't resist a big scary bat-monster and the model is kickass.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will also be fielding a Khaine themed DE army against a Saurus-heavy, Double-Carnosaur Lizardmen build. It will be one of my first times playing DE in 8th so any tips would be appreciated.
The list is as follows:

Lords:
- Morathi the Hag Sorceress:
Hero’s:
- Sorceress: Dark Steed, Dispel Scroll, Lv 2, Channelling Staff:
- Death Hag: Cauldron of Blood, Witchbrew:
- Tullaris Dreadbringer:
Core:
- 40 Witch Elves: Command, Banner of Swiftness:
- 6 Dark Riders: Shields, Repeater Crossbows, Command:
Special:
- 30 Har Ganeth Executioners: Command:
- Hydra: Fiery Breath:
- Hydra: Fiery Breath:
Rare:
- 5 Doomfire Warlocks: Master of Warlocks:

So I didn't get a chance to play my vamps list in the end. Instead I played the above DE list and a 2500 Point Mono-Khorne Daemons list which is as follows:

Lord:
Bloodthirster: 1 Greater Gift (+2 attacks), 2 Lesser Gifts (multiple wounds 2 and Blade of Blood)

Hero's:
Skulltaker: Bloodcrusher
Herald of Khorne: Blood Throne, Lesser Gift (Blade of Blood), BSB

Core:
35 Bloodletters: War banner, command
30 Bloodletters: Command

Special:
5 Bloodcrushers: command

Pretty simple, bashy and uncompetitive list tbh but a lot of fun

I was fighting a beastman army built around a mino-star which was something like this:

Lord:
Doombull: 4++, 1+ armour setup that causes him to make an extra attack per successful armour save

Heros:
Gorebull: BSB (idk magic items)
Gorebull: Potion of Strength, Sword of Swift Striking (ASF)

Core:
40 and 30 Gores with additional hand weapons, command
2x 1 Razorgors
Tuskgor chariot

Special:
18 Minotaurs: Command

So I really wasn't feeling too good about this matchup, my army was verrrry squishy and really really needed to get charges and favourable combats to stand any real chance. He started deploying first but I got the 1st turn. I deployed my 30 letters on the far left flank. My centre was made up on 35 letters and the bloodcrushers with skulltaker, sat in the corridor between them I had the herald on his throne and on the far right my thirster. Opposite me, he had his 30 gors facing down my letters, his mino-star in the centre opposite my 35 letters and crushers, next to them both razorgors, facing my thirster he had 30 gors.

We spent the first turns respectively shuffling forward, however his gors charged my letters on the left. His minostar moved up to bait my letters/crushers/throne and his razorgor blocked off the crushers from charging the mino's. My letters did a number on his gors, killing 12, I lost 8 in turn and they just managed to hold. In my turn I charged the razorgor with my crushers, my letters and throne charged the mino's. Disastrously, the letters fluffed their charge and the throne crashed in alone. I declared a challenge and dealt a total of 2 wounds to the unit before dying to flat combat rez. My Crushers charged the razorgor and killed it. My Thirster also hit the gors on the right flank and butchered 7 of them for 0 wounds in return, steadfast kept them in place.

In his turn 2 his Mino's made a huge charge and reached my crushers and promptly slaughtered them in one turn (I had rolled a 4 on the daemonic table in my turn and had only 6+ ward saves). Even skullcrusher wiffed and was slain before lifting his sword by the gorebull. My letters ripped through 9 more gores taking them out of range of the BSB and the general's bubble so their primal fury failed to go off, they killed 4 letters but broke and were run down. His Tuskgor failed to charge my letters. His mino's overran into my deployment zone. My central letters marched deep into his half and my thirster broke and ran down the other unit of gors.

We both regrouped our forces, this time in opposite halves of the table. he parked his tuskgor chariot in front of my 35 letters who had reformed and moved his remaining razorgor infront of my battered group of letters and thirster between them and the minostar. My letters charged his chariot and razorgor respectively, the razorgor fled and was run down. The letters should have been exposed to the Mino's but luckily I rolled a 12 on my winds of magic and spawned 9 letters infront of them. My big unit killed his chariot easily and elected to hold. In his turn he butchered my summoned daemons and overran in a weird direction. My thrister positioned itself to hit the Mino's and my battered letters were forced to charge into them to avoid being charged and killed on impacts. I lost most of them to the doombull and gorebull but they caused a few wounds. Being frenzied and having been charged, the Mino's were able to reform and face my bloodthirster behind them. In his turn they charged the thirster, here he made a mistake and accepted my challenge, hoping to triumph through impact hits and ASF+potion of strength. I rolled well and only took 2 wounds while killing the gorebull and winnning the combat. The Deathstar held. In my turn my big unit of letters hit him in the flank and the thirster declared a challenge which was refused. I pushed his Doombull to the back ranks and dealt 8 wounds with the thirster and 4 with my letters. He was able to kill the thirster (just) but lost the combat badly and broke. He rolled a 7 and my letters a 10, tabling him and winning me the game

Game 2:
DE vs Lizardmen

His Lizardmen list was:
Lord:
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur, some item that gives D3 impact hits and multiple wounds D3, 4+ ward and 1+ armour save

Hero's:
Skink Priest: Lv 2 Lore of Beasts
Saurus Scar Vet on Carnosaur, idk his gear
Saurus Scar Vet BsB on Cold One with 1+ rerollable armour

Core:
28 Saurus: Command
28 Saurus: Command
10 Skinks with javellins

Elite:
3 Kroxigors

Rare:
2 Steggadon's maybe ancient, I'm not sure. Both were Strength 6 and had blowpipes, sharpened tusks and D6+1 impact hits causing D3 multiple wounds

In this game we played with lots of terrain, a large castle-thing in the centre blokcing LoS and a ruin on either side that split each flank into two and bascially removed the centre of the battlefield entirely. He deployed first and went first. He overloaded the right flank with heavy units, 28 saurus, 2 carnosaurs and a steggadon. Facing down that I had my 40 Witch Elves and Cauldron, a hydra, Morathi and my 6 Dark Riders. on the right flank he had his 28 other saurus, 3 Kroxigors, his skink priest and his 2nd Steggadon. I countered that with my 5 doomfire warlocks+shadow sorceress, hydra, 30 Executioners+Tullaris. In terms of vanguard, my Dark Riders ran up closer to the Carno's and parked up, my doomfires slipped in behind the central ruins, making sure that one warlock was in LoS to the Steggadon. In his turn his army moved forwards, his scar vet carno positioned to charge my hydra on the left flank, his other carno and steggadon angled themselves to get screen the vet and the saurus moved up towards the witch elf block. The saurus and Kroxigors advanced on the Executioners and his skink priest 5 diced an upgraded amber spear into my Chimera on the right flank dealing 4 wounds, he tried to finish it off with the blowpipes on his Steg but failed. He lost 3 skinks and dropped a wound on the priest from the miscast.
My turn one was only movement, morathi cast word of pain and enfeebling foe to disauade the carno's from charging my hydra, my dark riders chipped a wound off the oldbloods carno. My witch elves moved up to menace the carno while keeping the saurus in their front arc. Morathi buffed my magic pool with power of darkness and I was able to 5 dice a doombolt with my warlocks into the Steg on the right flank, killing it. I lost 1 Warlock to the miscast. He further moved up his saurus on the left flank and repositioned his carno and steg to threaten my witch elves and hydra, his carno with word of pain on it retreated as he didn't have the necessary pool to dispel it. His Skink Preist cast Wyssans Wildform on his Saurus opposite the witch elves. His Saurus BSB moved around the ruins to threaten my Doomfires and his kroxigors and saurus on the right flank formed a concave to face down my executioners.

In my turn my witch elves barrelled into the 28 saurus, my dark riders rode forward to screen the witch elves flank from the Oldblood carno and steg, meanwhile, Morathi moved into range to cast hexes and I planned to cast Okhams on the Witches. My doomfires skirted the ruins to run behind the kroxigors and my executioners attempted to charge the rightmost saurus but failed. Luckily they only moved 3" and so their flank was protected by the ruins. The Hydra on the right flank turned and blocked the cold-one scar vet from rear charging the executioners. I rolled low for magic and failed to get off anything significant. Despite Wyssans and no buffs, the Witch Elves buried the saurus in 55 attacks, causing over 40 wounds even after I forgot the rerolls to wound from the cauldron, 18 Saurus were slain and they were unable to break through the 5+ ward from the Cauldron, casuing only 2 wounds in return and breaking only to be run down. Now until this point I was firmly in control of the game and a long way ahead, but this was a major major mistake. I got careless with my dark riders and didn't realise his carnosaur had swiftstride, we both also really really underestimated the power of Witch Elves, this was the first time I have ever used them and I didn't think they would rip through buffed saurus so easily. I should have just let the carnosaur and steggadon charge them, I strongly believe they would have killed all 3 units and netted me the game right there. Instead, they were lead out of position and my chaff died. The Oldblood ran down my Dark Riders which opened up my Hydra to a multi-charge from the scar vet carno and steggadon, the steggadon caused 4 wounds with its impact hits, the Hydra struck back and wounded the carno but was slain in return, they both then overran into morathi who I had stupidly placed too close! (In my defence I was actually unaware that you could multi-charge and then multi-overrun, I didn't realise that the carnosaur would also be able to get into her flank). We also misplayed and for some reason the Steggadon got impact hits on morathi despite only overrunning and not into an active combat. We were running short on time so this was the last turn, my excecutioners charged his Saurus, my Hydra charged his Saurus scar vet on cold one and I cast okhams on morathi with irresistable force (the miscast dropped a template which wounded the scar vets carnosaur and steggadon but Morathi made her 4++ save). Morathi was killed by the steggadon's impact hits meanwhile the executioners set to work, slaying 21 saurus in a brutal combat phase for 1 loss in return, breaking and runnig down the unit.
We had to call it there, I was ahead on victory points but not quite enough for the win

This was an interesting game, which made me really appreciate just how powerful Dark Ef units are. Doomfire warlocks are just ridiculous, with near immunity to miscasts they can just spam 24+ doombolts turn after turn without fear of disappearing, they're also almost completely uncatchable and super mobile for almost no cost. Witch Elves are absolutely insane, they hit like absolute trucks and with high WS AND rerolls to hit AND poison AND rerolls to wound they never seem to fail to perform. I wish I could have seen them buffed on Okhams but I don't think any unit in any army could stand against them at that point. Executioners too are extremely deadly, the ability to strike before most units with strength 6 is so nasty, looking at them I knew they would perform, but you have to see it to appreciate it fully. Hydra's I was very dissapointed in, they didn't really seem to have a home in this game due to the amount of Carno's and Stegs, I would honestly rather cut them for more witch elves or another unit of executioners tbh