Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tau are a dogs breakfast now. for a 1 trick army they perform that trick poorly.
Tau are not a horde army. They are a tactical strikeforce that use intelligence and superior technology to defeat their foes that usually outnumber them greatly.

Spikeybits terrified me with this article - https://spikeybits.com/2017/12/5-reasons-why-gw-doesnt-read-their-own-lore.html

The reason it shook me was that I read this on WH community a few weeks ago - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/19/coming-soon-new-battleforces-christmas-chapter-approved-new-varnish/
and I quote -

For Warhammer 40,000, there are battleforces for the Orks, Genestealer Cults, Astra Militarum and T’au Empire. Each of these armies is known for its high model-count, and these battleforces make collecting them that much simpler;

Tau....High Model Count????

Yikes.

Did anyone else notice this? I'm not religious but I'll pray to any god that will listen. Tau are not a horde army. Drone spam is byproduct of bad rules and design. We like our suits and tanks.

Tau Shoot and our shooting is bad now, Tau units across the board are too expensive and we're also not as mobile as we used to be. These 3 things need to be fixed.

Tau British Imperial Line style have a lot of Firewarriors. Firewarrior-heavy armies can have reasonably-high model counts.

I actually don't like suits much in my Tau. I like Firewarrirors (Carbines and Rifles) backed by some tanks. It's probably one of the higher-modelcount armies I've played. Not near the level of the others in the list, but more than SM/GK/CWE/etc.

I play against firewarrior spam a LOT. They are a high model count army if you want them to be.

Naaris wrote:
Tau are a dogs breakfast now. for a 1 trick army they perform that trick poorly.
Tau are not a horde army. They are a tactical strikeforce that use intelligence and superior technology to defeat their foes that usually outnumber them greatly.

Spikeybits terrified me with this article - https://spikeybits.com/2017/12/5-reasons-why-gw-doesnt-read-their-own-lore.html

Your first mistake is reading Spikeybits.

They also don't use "intelligence", they use technology.

The reason it shook me was that I read this on WH community a few weeks ago - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/19/coming-soon-new-battleforces-christmas-chapter-approved-new-varnish/
and I quote -

For Warhammer 40,000, there are battleforces for the Orks, Genestealer Cults, Astra Militarum and T’au Empire. Each of these armies is known for its high model-count, and these battleforces make collecting them that much simpler;

Tau....High Model Count????

Yikes.

Did anyone else notice this? I'm not religious but I'll pray to any god that will listen. Tau are not a horde army. Drone spam is byproduct of bad rules and design. We like our suits and tanks.

Tau Shoot and our shooting is bad now, Tau units across the board are too expensive and we're also not as mobile as we used to be. These 3 things need to be fixed.

Tau, as a faction by themselves not taking into account Farsight Enclaves, is a faction that has a large quantity of models when played to the fluff. You're talking about squads of Drones operating with Fire Warrior Teams, Stealth Teams operating in the forefront, Pathfinders operating from concealed positions, Devilfish on the field, Crisis Teams held in reserve, Broadsides operating in the rear, etc.

It's also worth noting that while someone says "high model count" there was also a bit in the Community article about the expenses of the army. Kharadron Overlords and Stormcast Eternals aren't known for horde armies either.

That Tau Empire box is playable in a very fluffy manner as well, able to represent a Mont'ka led by a Commander.

Tau aren't a horde army, I agree. But they aren't a elite low count style army.

They are on the middle ground. You can go more horde-like with drones, kroots and firewarrior spam, or more elite with Suits spam, but the "typical" style is infantry, with auxiliares, suits for support and tanks.

Fire Warriors are supposed to be the mainstay of Tau forces. Drones are used extensively because a dead drone is not a dead Tau. Kroot Mercs are used in decently large numbers.

Tau armies can easily field lots of models without being un-fluffy or ineffective. It's not all big robots and skimmers.

But when has spikeybits last produced content of note? Most of their stuff just seem to be baseless bashing of GW

Compared to what I play Tau are a high model army. They aren't a horde army like Tyranids but they definitely can have a high model count.

I've never really thought Tau win with better technology considering there are a few factions with outright better technology and Tau are only markedly better than Orks and Tyranids. They just adapt quickly with tactics and such.

First of all I'll just start off by saying I'm not a Tau player although I plan to create a Tau army at some point in the near future.

From what I've read so far I'm not really sure where you've got your assessment of their tech from pm713. Their tech seems to be somewhere between Imperial Guard and Space Marines, falling below in certain areas but only slightly.

Looking at the current Index for Tau it appears as though there is the capability to run them in some sizeable numbers but it also looks entirely feasible to run smaller forces. Something stated earlier in the thread.

I've seen it mentioned that shield drones took a hit in one of the errata's which have been released, something which is hardly productive as I don't think these were over-performing, admittedly I may be mistaken on this.

At this point in time I'd argue that it's very much a case of wait and see. While the Index can act as a potential indicator of what to expect from the Codex, the Index is by no means the final product. My main hope for the Codex will contain more expansive rules including the Tau Empire, The Farsight Enclaves and (hopefully) rules for fielding a wider array of auxiliaries. One thing which acts to distinguish the Tau from almost every other race is their willingness and acceptance other races, as long as they adopt their philosophies and rules.

Really, the race with the most advanced technology are the Necrons.
Eldar are less technology and more magic. Most of their stuff his psychic based one way or another, even when is made by their bone-stuff. But combining science and magic they are ahead of Tau.

In the low end (Basic weapons, vehicles, etc...) Tau is better than the Imperium, but the Imperium is better in the big stuff (Space ships, Titans, giant tanks) and their old techonology from the Great Crusade is better than Tau Technology, but of course those are relics and they can't produce more. Space Marine stuff is better than Tau stuff, but are much much rare (Theres a reason why terminator armours are reliqs) and much more difficult to produce that even the best and rarest Tau equipement.
Thats why the lore for their "special" weapons and units is different. When one unit is "rare" in the Imperium ,is because they are reliqs lost to time, and theres a small number of them on the Imperium. When some Tau unit like the Ghostkeel or the Stormsurge or the Coldstar or Shadowsun armour are "rare", is because they are prototipes and are still in test phase before entering production.

But as pm713 said, the biggest difference of the Tau is that all the other races that use "technology" are stangnant. Tau are actively trying to improve their technology. The Dark Mechanicus is the other force in the galaxy that doesn't stop from improving their technology, but like Eldar they are more of mixing magic with Technology, and they are much less centralized than the Tau, so is more crazy engineers doing their personal toys instead of a whole race working together to improve their technological level.

 FreeFrag.UK wrote:
First of all I'll just start off by saying I'm not a Tau player although I plan to create a Tau army at some point in the near future.

From what I've read so far I'm not really sure where you've got your assessment of their tech from pm713. Their tech seems to be somewhere between Imperial Guard and Space Marines, falling below in certain areas but only slightly.

Looking at the current Index for Tau it appears as though there is the capability to run them in some sizeable numbers but it also looks entirely feasible to run smaller forces. Something stated earlier in the thread.

I've seen it mentioned that shield drones took a hit in one of the errata's which have been released, something which is hardly productive as I don't think these were over-performing, admittedly I may be mistaken on this.

At this point in time I'd argue that it's very much a case of wait and see. While the Index can act as a potential indicator of what to expect from the Codex, the Index is by no means the final product. My main hope for the Codex will contain more expansive rules including the Tau Empire, The Farsight Enclaves and (hopefully) rules for fielding a wider array of auxiliaries. One thing which acts to distinguish the Tau from almost every other race is their willingness and acceptance other races, as long as they adopt their philosophies and rules.

Well above them are Eldar, Dark Eldar and Necrons.

Overall they about tie with the Imperium as each one can be called ahead in certain areas.

Below them are the obvious Orks who use junk with magic and Tyranids who just don't have technology.

Have I missed a faction there? I just bundled the Imperium together because listing every sub faction out takes forever and they use the same technology priest people for everything.

The logical conclusion for Tau is one of two possibilities:

-They end like Necrons with a mastery of psychic and technology so great that is even better than magic, but without the problems of being incapable of "reproducing", etc...

-They end being eaten by a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

The second one seems more likely to me seeing as they would have been eaten already if the Imperium hadn't awkwardly plot armoured in with Gorgon.

I don't like terms like "Plot armor". You just need to read a little of history to see a giant list of examples of things that in a fantasy story could have been called "Deus Ex Machina" or "Plot Armor": But many times, things just happen that way.

My favorite is when Alexander got pissed his guys were taking time capturing a port city, so just went up the walls in the next assault, and took the city.

I mean, that's the kind of gakky writing we expect of GW, not history.

 Galas wrote:
I don't like terms like "Plot armor". You just need to read a little of history to see a giant list of examples of things that in a fantasy story could have been called "Deus Ex Machina" or "Plot Armor": But many times, things just happen that way.

The issue is history happens that way because of chance or someone had a good idea whereas with writing it feels a lot more like it's been written to save someone through silly levels of luck. I mean, Gorgon was stopped by a new army time travelling in from the past!

I have never been a fan of time traveling, to be honest, but the way Warhammer does it is my favourite one.

I love the Ork Warboss that traveled to the past and killed himsellf so he could have two copies of his favourite shoota.

That is why Orks should be allowed time travel.

Not sure what the deal is now, but once upon a time, the background was that Orks were the leaders in using teleportation and force field technology. Lifta-droppas, bubble chukkas and shokk attack guns were all examples. the shokk attack gun is basically a man-portable webway tunnel generator.

 Galas wrote:
The logical conclusion for Tau is one of two possibilities:

-They end like Necrons with a mastery of psychic and technology so great that is even better than magic, but without the problems of being incapable of "reproducing", etc...

-They end being eaten by a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

Really? Because to me the Tau look to go the same way as humanity did.

Rapid technological advance, into Dark Age as they go to far, into something?(possibly extinction).

Well yeah, they can end having their own war agaisn't their IA's like humans did , and then be destroyed by warpstorms.

 Galas wrote:
Really, the race with the most advanced technology are the Necrons.
Eldar are less technology and more magic. Most of their stuff his psychic based one way or another, even when is made by their bone-stuff. But combining science and magic they are ahead of Tau.

In the low end (Basic weapons, vehicles, etc...) Tau is better than the Imperium, but the Imperium is better in the big stuff (Space ships, Titans, giant tanks) and their old techonology from the Great Crusade is better than Tau Technology, but of course those are relics and they can't produce more. Space Marine stuff is better than Tau stuff, but are much much rare (Theres a reason why terminator armours are reliqs) and much more difficult to produce that even the best and rarest Tau equipement.
Thats why the lore for their "special" weapons and units is different. When one unit is "rare" in the Imperium ,is because they are reliqs lost to time, and theres a small number of them on the Imperium. When some Tau unit like the Ghostkeel or the Stormsurge or the Coldstar or Shadowsun armour are "rare", is because they are prototipes and are still in test phase before entering production.

But as pm713 said, the biggest difference of the Tau is that all the other races that use "technology" are stangnant. Tau are actively trying to improve their technology. The Dark Mechanicus is the other force in the galaxy that doesn't stop from improving their technology, but like Eldar they are more of mixing magic with Technology, and they are much less centralized than the Tau, so is more crazy engineers doing their personal toys instead of a whole race working together to improve their technological level.

Lucius, Mars and Stygies are making new technology.

Yeah, now with Cawl and Ruboute admech has started again to innovate in a coordinate and big form. But we don't talk much about the new lore of the universe...

I've played a number of Tau 8th games (when everything was in indexes). To me, it seems GW is trying to force Tau to be the 'Xenos AM' - lots of models and vehicles, with some Elite support.

But Tau are much closer to SM than AM in playstyle - at least it was as I've been playing with them since 6th. You got some troops to hold objectives, transports to ferry them and tanks to poke some holes around, but the real deal is Elites.

Also, when you read about Tau tactics, they love being mobile and denying the enemy crushing victories. Mont'ka (kill something important to send the enemy in disarray) is more or less well represented in the rules, but Kauyon (wait for the right moment to strike at the weakest point) isn't.
All it does is 'if you don't move, get X or do Y' - but staying put isn't Kauyon! Kauyon is about the ambush - stealth, suprise attacks, guerrilla fight, etc. But all the rules do on this matter is to create boring gunlines.

I think Tau needs a serious revamp on its faction rules. All this 'stay put to get a bonus' should go away, unless it gave bonuses that really represented an undetected ambush - unit cannot be targeted in the shooting phase if within 12" of an enemy unit, if it is in cover and has not moved, for example. Or giving them -1 to be hit if within 12" (basically, the opposite of Raven Guard CT).
Better yet, at the start of your turn declare which units are using Kauyon and which ones are using Mont'ka (even those in reserves) (Mont'ka and Kauyon rules would appear in the same place where Markerlight and Supporting Fire are); Kauyon gives something, Mont'ka gives something else.
This way, you could represent better how the Tau way of war is shifty and adaptable to the conditions of the battle.

Tau don't do high model count well because it has very few options to deal with morale (IIRC, only Ethereals do something on the matter). MSU works better (even now that markerlight tokens aren't expended), and, well... MSU benefits Elite armies more than horde ones.

There's a reason Commander + drones + Y'vhara is the premier list for Tau now... it works even without markerlights. Firewarrior spam can do something in a casual meta, but won't go very far in any group that doesn't rein in their horses.

Kauyon is "The Patient Hunter". It's always involved not "ambush--stealth, surprise attacks, guerilla fights, etc"(that's more Mont'ka) but rather leaving bait out to entice the enemy in.

It's long been fluffed that Kauyon is an "ultimate expression of the Greater Good" as it involves all the units and forces involved working in perfect harmony to ensure that the bait isn't just left out to die. Everyone plays their part to perfection or as near to it as possible. Senseless casualties aren't acceptable.

There's been an element of the idea of ambush tactics attached to it since it is Shadowsun's schtick and her preference for Stealth Teams to serve as the whole "Patient Hunter" part of the deal opens the door for that to be a thing.

If you want Kauyon to be truly fluffy? Characters that enact Kauyon must be targeted by enemy units, but Supporting Fire can be used against shooting attacks as well as on Overwatch.

IMHO the real problem with Tau is that they changed the army from being a place to add in minor xenos races as auxiliary to "mecha". The original concept of the Tau back in 3rd, while it had anime influence, was that the battlesuits were there as support, basically mobile weapons platforms (similar to how we now have Aggressors or Centurions for Marines, which didnt exist then) and the main army support for the Fire Warriors were auxiliary races like the Kroot, Vespids, etc.

They should go back to that. Tau should not be mostly about giant mechas and battlesuits, but about various specialized alien races to let the army perform different roles. Battlesuits can be part of the army (they are, after all the way to get special/heavy weapons typically) but shouldn't be the focus.

Never played or owned tau myself, but my personal experience has been riptide/battlesuit spam every time. Wouldn't mind seeing more of the infantry options on the table.

Apologies pm713, it was late and the way I read your post didn't come across the same way as your reiteration of your point. Bit of brain fog it seems on my part.

I must admit that I largely agree with Vector's assessment, at this point in time GW need to do some serious thinking when it comes to the rules supporting Tau.

With regard to Tau and morale, I can't really say that I've ever read anything on the subject. Given the Fire Caste are bred to be soldiers I would have thought that their morale would be a bit harder to break than that of rank and file guardsmen.

I would also argue that the turrets should be mobile to a degree, at present the turrets which Strike/Breacher Teams can bring to support themselves force them to entrench. As previously stated Tau supposedly favour mobility but this is far from supported, in many ways it actually seems as though this is discouraged. I'd also suggest a general review of Tau weapon systems as some of them seem to be a bit lacklustre.

As one final thought, and perhaps a controversial one, perhaps the addition of a new battlesuit (yes, I know suits are over used at present) but something which gives Tau a reasonable melee option in addition to the Kroot meat shields. Given their technology is far from stagnant it wouldn't strike me as being unreasonable for new optics/sensor systems to be developed which can compensate for Tau visual issues in CQC. This is something which could also be addressed through rules as an alternative, using current suit options.

On a side note can anyone explain to me why the Kroot equivalent to a sergeant is an elite option? And why is it Kroot, who are melee specialists, receive WS 3+ yet Tau Strike/Breacher's have BS 4+ when they're ranged specialists?

 FreeFrag.UK wrote:
Apologies pm713, it was late and the way I read your post didn't come across the same way as your reiteration of your point. Bit of brain fog it seems on my part.

I must admit that I largely agree with Vector's assessment, at this point in time GW need to do some serious thinking when it comes to the rules supporting Tau.

With regard to Tau and morale, I can't really say that I've ever read anything on the subject. Given the Fire Caste are bred to be soldiers I would have thought that their morale would be a bit harder to break than that of rank and file guardsmen.

I would also argue that the turrets should be mobile to a degree, at present the turrets which Strike/Breacher Teams can bring to support themselves force them to entrench. As previously stated Tau supposedly favour mobility but this is far from supported, in many ways it actually seems as though this is discouraged. I'd also suggest a general review of Tau weapon systems as some of them seem to be a bit lacklustre.

As one final thought, and perhaps a controversial one, perhaps the addition of a new battlesuit (yes, I know suits are over used at present) but something which gives Tau a reasonable melee option in addition to the Kroot meat shields. Given their technology is far from stagnant it wouldn't strike me as being unreasonable for new optics/sensor systems to be developed which can compensate for Tau visual issues in CQC. This is something which could also be addressed through rules as an alternative, using current suit options.

On a side note can anyone explain to me why the Kroot equivalent to a sergeant is an elite option? And why is it Kroot, who are melee specialists, receive WS 3+ yet Tau Strike/Breacher's have BS 4+ when they're ranged specialists?

In old editions tau were base bs4+ because markerlights were important and could allow you to circumvent the crappy bs, and allowed smart use of them to make you extremely capable.

Now tau units cost as much as they should if the old markerlight system was in place, while also nerfing markerlights to irrelevancy.

Wayniac wrote:
IMHO the real problem with Tau is that they changed the army from being a place to add in minor xenos races as auxiliary to "mecha". The original concept of the Tau back in 3rd, while it had anime influence, was that the battlesuits were there as support, basically mobile weapons platforms (similar to how we now have Aggressors or Centurions for Marines, which didnt exist then) and the main army support for the Fire Warriors were auxiliary races like the Kroot, Vespids, etc.

They should go back to that. Tau should not be mostly about giant mechas and battlesuits, but about various specialized alien races to let the army perform different roles. Battlesuits can be part of the army (they are, after all the way to get special/heavy weapons typically) but shouldn't be the focus.

This is incorrect. Even going back to the initial Tau book, Battlesuits played a large role.

Kroot Auxiliaries were there as well, but Kroot (and the later added Vespid) are supposed to be not "mainstays" of the army but rather specialized support.