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In light of all armies getting stronger - Here are proposed Tau changes. Remember they only shoot and are not a horde army.

Drop prices on suits and tanks
Make Tau WS4 across the board.
Make kroot gun Ap-1 in melee and give 2 attacks
Raise prices on Drones - 15pts for Gun, 12pts for Shield, 15pts for Marker
Give suits and tanks BS3 as a base stat
Give drones BS4

General Weapon Changes
CIB to 15 from 18
Flamer to 5 from 9
Burst cannon to 5 from 10
Fustion blaster to 15 from 21
Plasma Rifle to 10 from 11
Missile Pod to 20 from 24
AFP - 24" from 18" - AP -1
Seeker Missiles - Are BS 5 base - Heavy D6 - Cause 1 mortal wounds per hit - 10pts each
Destroyer Missiles - Are BS 5 base - Heavy 2D6 - Cause 3 mortal wounds per hit - 20pts each


Re-order the ML Table
1 The target gets no saving throw bonuses for being in cover.
2 Destroyer and Seeker missiles fired at the target use the firer's Ballistic Skill
3 T'AU EMPIRE models shooting at the target may re-roll hit rolls of 1.
4 T'AU EMPIRE models shooting at the target may ignore the hit roll penalties for moving and firing Heavy weapons, and Advancing and firing Assault weapons.
5 T'AU EMPIRE models shooting at this unit get +1 to hit.

Make Marker Lights assault so that pathfinders can be more tactical.

Give Pathfinders +2 to cover save bonuses
RailRifles - flat 2 dmg
Ion Rifles - -2AP for both modes // OC - 2 Dmg

Change Invocation of the Elements to work on all friendly Tau Models

* Calm of Tides: Subtract 1 from any Morale tests made for affected units.
* Storm of Fire: You may re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the Shooting phase for affected units that remain stationary in the Movement phase. - remove that
* Sense of Stone: Whenever an affected unit suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D6. On a 5, that wound is ignored. - changed to 5+
* Zephyr's Grace: You can re-roll the dice for affected units when they Advance. - Change to - units move their full amount when advancing if they started their movement 6" from an ethereal.

Battlesuit Changes - Give all suits except stormsurges and broadsides the ability to Manta Strike.
- Battlesuits (excecpt BS and SS) regain Thrust Moves - in the close combat phase, Jet Pack models can move 2d6"

Commander - base price - 60 from 72

Crisis Suit changes
base price 35 from 42

Stealth suits drop to 20 from 30

Ghostkeel - base price of 75 from 82
Fusion collider - 2d3 Shots - 35pts
CIR - AP-2 for both modes, Overcharged to heavy 6 rather than D6. - 25pts
Drop cost of MTracker to 5, Shield Generator to 10.

Broadside to 50 from 80
HRR - to 50 from 63 - Up to Str9 - Flat 3dmg
HYMP - to 80 from 82
Give Stable platform rule from drones allowing it to move and shoot - but reduce advance to d3

Riptide - Base price to 150 from 209
HBC - 40pts heavy 8 - AP-2 Dmg D3 / Nova - Heavy 16 AP-3 Dmg 3
IA - 50pts - Reduce range to 48" on all modes. Changes - Std - Dmg d3 // OC - Heavy 6 Dmg 3. // Nov - Heavy 2D6 AP-4 Dmg D6 - Counts 1 and 2 as 3.

Stormsurge - base price to 175 from 180
Cluster Rockets to 50pts
Pulse Blast Cannon to 40pts - Change str to 12/14/16
Pulse Driver Cannon to 50pts - heavy 2d3 w/ 10 or more at 2d6 - Dmg Dmg D6 - Counts 1 and 2 as 3.
Give Stormsurge Titanic feet
Drop cost of Shield Generator to 20
Increase cost of Stims 15 for this model.

Tanks

HHead - Base to 80 from 117
Railgun - Change to Heavy Swift Strike RG - Heavy D3 Str 16 AP -5 Dmg D6 - Counts 1 and 2 as 3. + the existing 6 to wound = D3 mortal wounds on top of added dmg - Cost - 60pts
Sub munitions - Change to heavy 2d6 S7
Ion Cannon - 40pts

Skyray - Base to 80 from 119
Optional fire mode - All weapons can choose to have skyfire and are +1 to hit units with fly keyword

Devilfish - Base 80 from 101

Dropping prices, okay. They're a bit too pricey. (Except Commanders.)
Why WS4+? They're not good close combatants.
Why make Kroot literally better than Assault Marines in CC?
Prices on Drones, okay.
BS3+ base, okay.
Why give Drones BS 4+? That lets them shoot better than ordinary Tau with a Controller. No, keep them at 5+.

Destroyer Missiles are INSANE under your new rules. Seekers are pretty good (average of 1.17 MW per regular shot, or twice that for full BS shots) but Destroyers do an average of 7 Mortal Wounds at 5+ shots! That's 14 at 3+, per missile!

Why does Invocation need to work on Tanks?

Why does Sense of Stone need to be 5+? It's always been 6+, and with the amount of units you can get nearby, I don't think they should get a 5+.

Do NOT add back in JSJ. That was annoying as hell, and makes Tau suits nigh-impossible to shoot if there's a decent amount of terrain.

Don't make the Commander cheaper. He's already great.

The Hammerhead is WAY too good under these changes. Compare to a Neutron Laser Onager.

With the Seeker (/destroyer) Missiles, there should only ever be 1 roll to hit (or an autohit, depending on how the rules are written).

If it needs to be buffed (Feels like it should be), do something like d3 or d6 Mortal Wounds (d6 feels like too many).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm glad you started the thread, but I agree w/JNA that some of this goes too far.

Tau should be WS5+. I could see Suits, maybe, possibly being WS4+.

Railgun should be Heavy 1, but S:16 and D: 2d6 would be reasonable.

Seeker Missiles: Always hit on a 6.
The ML upgrade -> Seeker Missiles hit on a 2+
Seeker Missiles do d3 MW.

I literally stopped reading after the WS4+ part.

Are these points cross referenced against other armies? Roughly looking at it, it seems like a rather too radical of point decrease.

Theres some good things here but... you are even making the Commander cheaper... and the misiles asJNAP said are insane... no... no please.

Mostly OK, but as stated, a lot of things go too far.

A few thoughts, though:

1) Plasma. Tau plasma, up to now, has been weaker (lower S) than Imperial plasma, but the tradeoff is that it doesn't barbecue the firer. Well, now Imperial plasma doesn't either, unless you overcharge it. Tau plasma can't overcharge. Would it make sense to leave it at S6 AP -3 D1, but change it from Rapid-fire 1 to Assault 2?

2) Railguns, it seems to me, should be super-reliable, rather than super-deadly. How about D:2 for rail rifles, as proposed, plus D: 4 for heavy rail rifles and D: d3+3 for railguns, keeping the "also add mortal wounds on a natural 6 to wound" mechanic?

3) Heavy burst cannon - I'm leery of fast-firing, strong-AP, multi-damage weapons, but I like the idea of the HBC being a horde-killer that transforms into a high-powered generalist. How about this:

Heavy Burst Cannon: S6 AP -1 D: 1 Heavy 12
Heavy Burst Cannon, Nova-charged: S6 AP -2 D: 2 Heavy 16. Rolls of 1 to hit with this weapon inflict an automatic wound (no AP, ignores cover) on the firing model. (note, these are not mortal wounds - armor and invulnerable saves can be taken.)

Note that adding the ATS would improve the AP of that weapon, and a weapon that hits on a 2+, re-rolling 1s (5 markerlights, assuming the base BS 3+ buff, which I agree with at least for shas'vres), that has AP -3 and 2 damage is pretty frightening to almost everything.

4) Ethereals. How about bumping their cost up a bit, but alter Storm of Fire to re-roll wound rolls of 1 in the shooting phase?

I'd rather increase prices for weapons but decrease prices for suits themselves, so that there is a point in loadouts other than 3/4x same weapon.

 skchsan wrote:
Are these points cross referenced against other armies? Roughly looking at it, it seems like a rather too radical of point decrease.

Just looking at what other armies have received.

Some examples of how these units would look with this new pricing compared to other units with similar stats from a comparable model

Ghostkeels are 181pts now with a CIR and 2xBC and ATS and TL
With my updates - 170pts at BS3 with the same loadout
Ghostkeel has 3 less wounds and -1 S&T&A to a Redemptor dread that costs 206 with double gatling guns. The Ghostkeel is weaker but is harder to kill. With the ATS and TL, the Ghostkeel can move and shoot and its weapons have equal or 1 better AP as well has being more mobile.
The Redemptor has ridiculously more fire power and range as well CC ability. For me that, + 3 Wounds + the better stats is worth the extra 36points over my modifed Ghostkeel pricing. It actually makes me think the ghostkeel could cost less.

Or take into account the changes I've made to a Riptide against that same Redemptor
A Riptide with HBC, SMS ATS and TL costs 324 now
It has WS4 under my rules, but is -1 S + 1W and 2+Sv compared to a redemptor and moves 12 rather than 8.
My changes have that Riptide at 250.
A nova charging the Riptide puts out 24shots total under my new scheme. Vs a Redemptor that puts 24-28 shots?
Is 44 points worth 4"of movement, +1W +1 save and an invulnerable save as well as having better AP and DMG? I think yes.

 Sonic Keyboard wrote:
I'd rather increase prices for weapons but decrease prices for suits themselves, so that there is a point in loadouts other than 3/4x same weapon.

Considering that a missile pod is just a glorified autocannon, and fusion blasters are (slightly) longer ranged meltaguns but both cost more than a lascannon, and a plasma rifle is worse in every way to a plasma gun but costs more (11 vs 7 on a BS 4+ model), I would say the weapons cost too much.

Now, if we compare the base model of a crisis suit to a sentinel we see that:
- an armored sentinel costs 40 pts
- a crisis suit costs 42 pts
- same ballistic skill, same toughness, same armor save
- sentinel has 3 more wounds (6 total) and + 1" movement
- crisis suit has "fly"
- crisis suit can take 3 weapons

It seems to me that the base cost of the crisis suit is fine

Dandelion wrote:

 Sonic Keyboard wrote:
I'd rather increase prices for weapons but decrease prices for suits themselves, so that there is a point in loadouts other than 3/4x same weapon.

Considering that a missile pod is just a glorified autocannon, and fusion blasters are (slightly) longer ranged meltaguns but both cost more than a lascannon, and a plasma rifle is worse in every way to a plasma gun but costs more (11 vs 7 on a BS 4+ model), I would say the weapons cost too much.

Now, if we compare the base model of a crisis suit to a sentinel we see that:
- an armored sentinel costs 40 pts
- a crisis suit costs 42 pts
- same ballistic skill, same toughness, same armor save
- sentinel has 3 more wounds (6 total) and + 1" movement
- crisis suit has "fly"
- crisis suit can take 3 weapons

It seems to me that the base cost of the crisis suit is fine

I'm not really convinced that the sentinel is a good comparison seeing as it isn't really a good choice in the AM codex. So arguing that a crisis suit is comparable to one might not mean that it is fine.

Dandelion wrote:

 Sonic Keyboard wrote:
I'd rather increase prices for weapons but decrease prices for suits themselves, so that there is a point in loadouts other than 3/4x same weapon.

Considering that a missile pod is just a glorified autocannon, and fusion blasters are (slightly) longer ranged meltaguns but both cost more than a lascannon, and a plasma rifle is worse in every way to a plasma gun but costs more (11 vs 7 on a BS 4+ model), I would say the weapons cost too much.

Now, if we compare the base model of a crisis suit to a sentinel we see that:
- an armored sentinel costs 40 pts
- a crisis suit costs 42 pts
- same ballistic skill, same toughness, same armor save
- sentinel has 3 more wounds (6 total) and + 1" movement
- crisis suit has "fly"
- crisis suit can take 3 weapons

It seems to me that the base cost of the crisis suit is fine

As of the imperial guard codex armoured sentinels are toughness 6, and as someone else said, armoured sentinels are not good so being "fine" compared to them is not a good thing.

I do agree Tau weapons are ludicrously expensive for what they do.

I think a 10% - 15% decrease across the board would be a solid place to start. (Certain exceptions like the crisis commander should be unchanged)

The HQ character's abilities really need to be reworked so that they are less restrictive and are actually impactful on gameplay.

For example, I would rather see the ethereal as a stationary, pure support character with significant buffs to all units. (flat rerolls or similar but carries no ranged weapons)
The crisis commander should be a fast moving fighter who can support. (reroll ones but carries weapons and is durable)
The fireblade should be somewhere in the middle. (minor buffs to fire warriors and battlesuits)
The shaper should do something similar but for Kroot.

I don't feel thier current abilities compare with similar buff characters. ( SM captains and lieutenant / platoon and company commanders)

The markerlight table is alright with the Chapter Approved stratagem. (1CP +D3 markerlight hits on any unit already hit by a markerlight)
This is significant because we currently don't have anything to do with CPs other than take rerolls.

I feel that the majority of the Tau equiptment and profiles are correct, we have a lot of strong gear and capable units to carry said gear.
However, the costing of those units and thier support abilities leave a lot to be desired. 8th is about overlapping, efficient buffs and efficient unit costings.
We have niether.

Well, I wouldn't say no to reducing the cost of crisis suits themselves
I just figured that "fly" and 3 weapon slots were plenty to justify the base cost. The weapon costs, though, are unjustified. A single crisis team armed with 3 fusion blasters each and supported by six drones costs 370ish pts, that's almost as much as Guilliman.

For the commander buffs, I think that the suit commander's master of war ability should affect everyone on the board for that turn. In the fluff the whole hunter cadre will practice either mont'ka or kayoun prior to the engagement and then put it into action.
I would also like to see the return of the shas'el, who is cheaper than the shas'o but doesn't have the master of war ability, and instead has some sort of buff aura for suits.
Also, I feel that fireblades should not have a range restriction on volley fire, that way pulse rifles get two shots at 30". Guard have FRFSRF that flat out doubles all lasgun shots sooo...

Tau also need access to reroll wound rolls. Right now we have 6 ways to reroll ones to hit but nothing that increase our wounding potential.

Only LOWs have S16, and not even all macro weapons have AP -5. Realistically I'd expect something like this: Hammerhead gun '72 S14 AP-4, Damage: roll 2d6 & pick highest result (like melta but without range requirement). If HH moved 1/2 or remained stationary, it can shoot twice but must use same profile.

Dandelion wrote:
Tau also need access to reroll wound rolls. Right now we have 6 ways to reroll ones to hit but nothing that increase our wounding potential.

Agreed. Someone mentioned above that the Ethereal ability could accomplish that. Hell even make one of the marker light rules that.

Also All those penalties about needing to be stationary is dumb.
Montka and Kauyon Rules need to be improved.

Re-order the ML Table
1 The target gets no saving throw bonuses for being in cover.
2 T'AU EMPIRE models shooting at the target may re-roll wound rolls of 1 & Destroyer and Seeker missiles fired at the target use the firer's Ballistic Skill
3 T'AU EMPIRE models shooting at the target may re-roll hit rolls of 1.
4 T'AU EMPIRE models shooting at the target may ignore the hit roll penalties for moving and firing Heavy weapons, and Advancing and firing Assault weapons.
5 T'AU EMPIRE models shooting at this unit get +1 to hit.

In the Marklight Table, at the 4 Marklight Point, instead of ignoring Hit Roll Penalties for moving, would it be game-breaking if it was ignoring Hit Roll penalties all together? It would help counteract some of the more obscene to-hit penalties that practically makes T'au Models defunct in the roll they specialise in, plus, being so far down the Marklight Table means there will still be a rather high investment in achieving that point (-2 to hit practically requires a Cadre Fireblade and a Stratagem).

I would be curious into giving Hammerheads a "Grinding Advance" style rule, and then have the Railgun's Solid Shot rounds ignore Invulnerable Saves.

Plasma, no matter how cheap it might be, will always have difficulty finding a role in a T'au as long as there is a weapon that kills TEQ models better (At the moment, 2 CIB/ATS is better at killing TEQ over 3 Plasma). Upping the damage characteristic of Plasma to 2 but keeping strength to 6 would skill keep the flavour of the weapon (Doesn't blow up in your face for the same damage output, but has a weaker damage output).