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Because there really isn't one. Flamers aren't good so being able to spam them doesn't work (though bikers would do that better anyway) and for TWO more points per model you can get Vanguard instead. They're not so cheap that you can argue to fill the Fast Attack slot for a Brigade. They simply can't do anything well.

There are people defending them as a choice in another thread, so I figured to make this thread as a dedicated discussion instead.

They have the same issue they basically have always had. They are not good at assault, except against squads that are terrible in the assault. They also are not really any good at shooting. 5th ed BA was probably their high water mark because having 2 melta guns in a squad that could deepstrike was good, and deepstriking flamers actually worked. They also got a "discount" on transport vehicles.

Now they get none of those advantages.

I find they try to fill the same niche as raptors. Their name is missleading. They aren't supposed to assault anything. They are a unit to load with special weapons and deliver them where you need them when you need them, but at a much cheaper costs than Sternguard or other options.

Vanguard Veterans/Warp Talons are the jumpack meele unit of both space marines and chaos space marines.

Of course I'm not saying they do this job right, but at least thats the tactical niche I believe they try to fill.

 Galas wrote:
I find they try to fill the same niche as raptors. Their name is missleading. They aren't supposed to assault anything. They are a unit to load with special weapons and deliver them where you need them when you need them, but at a much cheaper costs than Sternguard or other options.

Vanguard Veterans/Warp Talons are the jumpack meele unit of both space marines and chaos space marines.

Of course I'm not saying they do this job right, but at least thats the tactical niche I believe they try to fill.

Can they take full-size Plasma Guns? I think that's probably the best Special Weapon for deep-strikers - if they're stuck with Flamers and Meltas, that's bupkis.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount flamers, but assault marines are not an efficient delivery system for them anyway. It takes the same things to be successful at either shooting or assault; you either have to have a decent strength, high AP weapon, or a huge volume of attacks. Assault marines have neither, and they are also not durable. So they are not a very efficient unit to take. However, they have been and always will be one of the coolest units!

So, I'm not sure this is Assault Marines or Raptors, but the niche I'd envision (if I was building the rules) is:

A deep-striking unit, armed with 2 special weapons per 5, like scions, but with chainswords and bolt pistols instead of boltguns so that they can still "assault" things like Devastator Squads and IG Heavy Weapon squads, and then fall back to shoot (if the enemy doesn't) since they have the Fly keyword.

But if they don't get Plasma Guns or 2/5 special weapons then, again, bupkis.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Because there really isn't one. Flamers aren't good so being able to spam them doesn't work (though bikers would do that better anyway) and for TWO more points per model you can get Vanguard instead. They're not so cheap that you can argue to fill the Fast Attack slot for a Brigade. They simply can't do anything well.

Hasty generalization to say they can't do anything well. They can beat up bubble screens very effectively. Also, I believe VV is 3 points per model more, not 2, which is pedantry, but that's what we're here for. At the end of the day, as an assault element, they can engage trash troops left on objectives and probably clear them out pretty effectively while not detracting significantly from the overall functionality of your army. Would I base an army around them? Not likely.

I can see situations where I'm trying to fit an assault element in and don't need to pay for the additional benefits provided by VV, it's an edge case, but it's a case.

VV is the Cadillac assault option, where you can hyper customize it for...reasons, Assault squads are the vanilla option. Honestly, yeah, there's a lot of possibly unnecessary overlap and redundancy, but that's been a SM thing for several editions now.

It could be worse, you could be Blood Angels, having Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Vanguard Veterans, and Assault Marines when we all know that you're just going to take Death Company.

I have a hard time making an argument for Raptors and Warp Talons also, so there it is, jump assault troops are just too expensive for my tastes, they always seem to end up on the cutting room floor.

Agreed with TwinPoleTheory.

Jump "assault" troops are kind of mediocre as an idea, especially when there are much faster options available (e.g. bikes).

What I would see for jump troops are hybrid assault/shooty units, capable of punching fairly well (2 attacks per guy!) and shooting fairly well (2 special weapons per 5!) but most importantly filling the "skirmisher" niche of being fast and able to fall back while shooting, and also being able to deep strike.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So, I'm not sure this is Assault Marines or Raptors, but the niche I'd envision (if I was building the rules) is:

A deep-striking unit, armed with 2 special weapons per 5, like scions, but with chainswords and bolt pistols instead of boltguns so that they can still "assault" things like Devastator Squads and IG Heavy Weapon squads, and then fall back to shoot (if the enemy doesn't) since they have the Fly keyword.

But if they don't get Plasma Guns or 2/5 special weapons then, again, bupkis.

They get plasma pistols (or flamers) but it's 2/10 + the sarge.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I find they try to fill the same niche as raptors. Their name is missleading. They aren't supposed to assault anything. They are a unit to load with special weapons and deliver them where you need them when you need them, but at a much cheaper costs than Sternguard or other options.

Vanguard Veterans/Warp Talons are the jumpack meele unit of both space marines and chaos space marines.

Of course I'm not saying they do this job right, but at least thats the tactical niche I believe they try to fill.

Blood Angels get Plasma Guns. The Vanilla ones only get Flamers, which are now lousy.
Can they take full-size Plasma Guns? I think that's probably the best Special Weapon for deep-strikers - if they're stuck with Flamers and Meltas, that's bupkis.

Breng77 wrote:
They have the same issue they basically have always had. They are not good at assault, except against squads that are terrible in the assault. They also are not really any good at shooting. 5th ed BA was probably their high water mark because having 2 melta guns in a squad that could deepstrike was good, and deepstriking flamers actually worked. They also got a "discount" on transport vehicles.

Now they get none of those advantages.

Yep. The BA 5th ed assault squads were okay and all jump units were decent in 2nd where mobility was scarce and valuable.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Because there really isn't one. Flamers aren't good so being able to spam them doesn't work (though bikers would do that better anyway) and for TWO more points per model you can get Vanguard instead. They're not so cheap that you can argue to fill the Fast Attack slot for a Brigade. They simply can't do anything well.

Hasty generalization to say they can't do anything well. They can beat up bubble screens very effectively. Also, I believe VV is 3 points per model more, not 2, which is pedantry, but that's what we're here for. At the end of the day, as an assault element, they can engage trash troops left on objectives and probably clear them out pretty effectively while not detracting significantly from the overall functionality of your army. Would I base an army around them? Not likely.

I can see situations where I'm trying to fit an assault element in and don't need to pay for the additional benefits provided by VV, it's an edge case, but it's a case.

VV is the Cadillac assault option, where you can hyper customize it for...reasons, Assault squads are the vanilla option. Honestly, yeah, there's a lot of possibly unnecessary overlap and redundancy, but that's been a SM thing for several editions now.

It could be worse, you could be Blood Angels, having Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Vanguard Veterans, and Assault Marines when we all know that you're just going to take Death Company.

I have a hard time making an argument for Raptors and Warp Talons also, so there it is, jump assault troops are just too expensive for my tastes, they always seem to end up on the cutting room floor.

Vanguard are 18 with Jump Packs and Assault Marines are 16 with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So, I'm not sure this is Assault Marines or Raptors, but the niche I'd envision (if I was building the rules) is:

A deep-striking unit, armed with 2 special weapons per 5, like scions, but with chainswords and bolt pistols instead of boltguns so that they can still "assault" things like Devastator Squads and IG Heavy Weapon squads, and then fall back to shoot (if the enemy doesn't) since they have the Fly keyword.

But if they don't get Plasma Guns or 2/5 special weapons then, again, bupkis.

Raptors have that ability. Assault Marines can get Eviscerstors, but I'll let you tell me how handy that is.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Agreed with TwinPoleTheory.

Jump "assault" troops are kind of mediocre as an idea, especially when there are much faster options available (e.g. bikes).

What I would see for jump troops are hybrid assault/shooty units, capable of punching fairly well (2 attacks per guy!) and shooting fairly well (2 special weapons per 5!) but most importantly filling the "skirmisher" niche of being fast and able to fall back while shooting, and also being able to deep strike.

I think you're describing inceptors. Good at shooting, but with a decent charge, deep strike and the all important fly keyword.

So it seems that GW also realizes that assault marines don't really have a purpose, which may be why they didn't get a primaris version.

I'll post my last post in the other thread first:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. There IS no corner case. Vanguard have more LD and attacks for 2 points. Melta Bombs are worthless now and a Power Weapon on the Sergeant is not gonna propel them anywhere.

"5 ASM with a Power weapon on the sarge average 1.5 wounds against MEQ. If the ASM Sargent lives he can jump away and land a S 8 AP -4 D6 wound shot on something. I'd argue that could be more important than:

5 Vanguard with Chainswords average 1.77 against MEQ.

It's not a big gap. But to make a worthwhile difference you gotta start spending points on specials, which is fine, but then relative cost starts going up pretty quick."




Then I'll ask "What's the point of Vanguard Veterans?"

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Vanguard are 18 with Jump Packs and Assault Marines are 16 with them.

Ahh, thank you sir, I missed that, my foolish assumption to think that Jump Packs are Jump Packs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Raptors have that ability. Assault Marines can get Eviscerstors, but I'll let you tell me how handy that is.

Every couple weeks I try to convince myself Raptors are worth taking and not fidgety units requiring a lot of setup to use. Then I go down the Night Lords rabbit hole, then I ask myself how they are better than Berzerkers in transports and discard the list in disgust.

Storm shield carriers.

Wait so if they have 1 special and 1 combi per 5, that's 2 per five...

there's your niche right there. The real question is why you'd ever take 10.

EDIT: Still unclear if they can or can not have plasma guns.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so if they have 1 special and 1 combi per 5, that's 2 per five...

there's your niche right there. The real question is why you'd ever take 10.

EDIT: Still unclear if they can or can not have plasma guns.

They can take plasma pistols. Raptors can take plasma guns (+ a combi on the champion). Not sure why they're different, but Raptors aren't exactly great either (they are firmly in the "ok" category).

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so if they have 1 special and 1 combi per 5, that's 2 per five...

there's your niche right there. The real question is why you'd ever take 10.

EDIT: Still unclear if they can or can not have plasma guns.

They can take plasma pistols. Raptors can take plasma guns (+ a combi on the champion). Not sure why they're different, but Raptors aren't exactly great either (they are firmly in the "ok" category).

Right, okay, so Raptors have a point but ASM are still bupkis.

And yeah, putting them in the "ok" category is fine. I think that's a fairly balanced category, where taking a unit doesn't actively harm you but it'll function just fine in a fairly casual setting.

Raptors would probably be pretty good if the meta wasn't Screenhammer. Unlike plasma scions they're too expensive to just dump on whatever target happens to be available.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait so if they have 1 special and 1 combi per 5, that's 2 per five...

there's your niche right there. The real question is why you'd ever take 10.

EDIT: Still unclear if they can or can not have plasma guns.

They can take plasma pistols. Raptors can take plasma guns (+ a combi on the champion). Not sure why they're different, but Raptors aren't exactly great either (they are firmly in the "ok" category).

Raptors are mostly overshadowed by chaos terminators also being able to fill the same niche, with the added benefit of being able to fit more in each unit if you want to use the double tap stratagem which most people seem to be liking so far. They still have a niche though, given they are a much cheaper investment than terminators and less an issue if they fry themselves with overcharged plasma.

I'm not really sure what vanilla assault marines are for at this point. They don't have the number of attacks needed to threaten hordes, and they lack the specialized weapons you'd expect to see to deal with elites. They have the weapon restrictions of a troop choice yet sit in a fast attack slot. If they became a troop choice they'd have usage just in filling slots with melee guys and being able to deepstrike near objectives, and if they had the ability to specialize their loadout a bit more they might be able to fill a roll that isn't having the same basic damage output as a tactical squad except in melee rather than at range.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Raptors would probably be pretty good if the meta wasn't Screenhammer. Unlike plasma scions they're too expensive to just dump on whatever target happens to be available.

I keep kicking around a Night Lords concept detachment using Raptors/Chaos Lord/Sorcerer deep strike because on paper it looks like it would really do a number on morale (I think you could end up swinging morale by 6 points or something pretty easily).

However, it fails against bugs since you have to assume fearless, it fails against Dark Angels because of chapter tactics, it could do a number on Conscript screens now, but that's a hell of a lot of points and setup to crush bubble screens.

It would probably do well against Eldar, since the morale swing would really limit the effectiveness of high Eldar LD.

The bottom line is that it's just hit and miss as to when it will be good. Then you have that nagging voice in the back of your head wondering how much of that morale manipulation was figured into their cost that's going to waste against a particular opponent.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
The bottom line is that it's just hit and miss as to when it will be good. Then you have that nagging voice in the back of your head wondering how much of that morale manipulation was figured into their cost that's going to waste against a particular opponent.

Well, if you compare raptors to assault marines they cost a point more, in return they get

1. The -LD ability
2. Better equipment options, both being able to take plasma/melta guns, as well as having access to the icon of khorne for refillable charges out of deepstrike. They do lose eviscerator (which isn't a loss) and the shield on the sarge (slightly less useless but not much). Overall a net gain.
3. They trade they shall know no fear, which isn't great unless you plan on avoiding msu for some reason, for the significantly more useful death to the emperor, excellent on a melee unit.

Raptors pay a a very marginal point increase (16 vs 17 ppm) but for the LD buff alone it wouldn't be worth it. The ability to make them more reliable deepstrikers, their situationally better melee, and the fact they can also double as deepstriking special weapons more than justifies that extremely minor point increase.

SilverAlien wrote:

Well, if you compare raptors to assault marines they cost a point more, in return they get

1. The -LD ability
2. Better equipment options, both being able to take plasma/melta guns, as well as having access to the icon of khorne for refillable charges out of deepstrike. They do lose eviscerator (which isn't a loss) and the shield on the sarge (slightly less useless but not much). Overall a net gain.
3. They trade they shall know no fear, which isn't great unless you plan on avoiding msu for some reason, for the significantly more useful death to the emperor, excellent on a melee unit.

Raptors pay a a very marginal point increase (16 vs 17 ppm) but for the LD buff alone it wouldn't be worth it. The ability to make them more reliable deepstrikers, their situationally better melee, and the fact they can also double as deepstriking special weapons more than justifies that extremely minor point increase.

Please don't misunderstand, I am not complaining about their cost or even really asking for some sort of breakdown of Raptors vs Assault Marines (they probably are better, I haven't bothered to dig into it). I was simply bemoaning the fact that they are a niggling interest of mine that I continue to fruitlessly revisit in the hopes that I'll have an epiphany that doesn't leave them abandoned like an old couch on the curb.

I'm actually considering trying out a 5-man squad with 3 plasma pistols. I'm sure they won't be very good, but they could be interesting in a casual game.

SilverAlien wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
The bottom line is that it's just hit and miss as to when it will be good. Then you have that nagging voice in the back of your head wondering how much of that morale manipulation was figured into their cost that's going to waste against a particular opponent.

Well, if you compare raptors to assault marines they cost a point more, in return they get

1. The -LD ability
2. Better equipment options, both being able to take plasma/melta guns, as well as having access to the icon of khorne for refillable charges out of deepstrike. They do lose eviscerator (which isn't a loss) and the shield on the sarge (slightly less useless but not much). Overall a net gain.
3. They trade they shall know no fear, which isn't great unless you plan on avoiding msu for some reason, for the significantly more useful death to the emperor, excellent on a melee unit.

Raptors pay a a very marginal point increase (16 vs 17 ppm) but for the LD buff alone it wouldn't be worth it. The ability to make them more reliable deepstrikers, their situationally better melee, and the fact they can also double as deepstriking special weapons more than justifies that extremely minor point increase.

Don't forget they can take a Banner. Which basically means the Khorne mark and the reroll to charge banner. But still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'll post my last post in the other thread first:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. There IS no corner case. Vanguard have more LD and attacks for 2 points. Melta Bombs are worthless now and a Power Weapon on the Sergeant is not gonna propel them anywhere.

"5 ASM with a Power weapon on the sarge average 1.5 wounds against MEQ. If the ASM Sargent lives he can jump away and land a S 8 AP -4 D6 wound shot on something. I'd argue that could be more important than:

5 Vanguard with Chainswords average 1.77 against MEQ.

It's not a big gap. But to make a worthwhile difference you gotta start spending points on specials, which is fine, but then relative cost starts going up pretty quick."




Then I'll ask "What's the point of Vanguard Veterans?"

1. Melta Bombs are terrible. Nobody is paying for Melta Bombs anymore.
2. Not sure where you got that math. Vanguard with all Chainswords is 4 attacks each, with 5 on the Sergeant if you want 2 on him as well. That's 21 attacks total, and that's 2.3 dead total.
3. You also can double up on Bolt Pistols of course if you want a Cowboy thing going on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Vanguard are 18 with Jump Packs and Assault Marines are 16 with them.

Ahh, thank you sir, I missed that, my foolish assumption to think that Jump Packs are Jump Packs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Raptors have that ability. Assault Marines can get Eviscerstors, but I'll let you tell me how handy that is.

Every couple weeks I try to convince myself Raptors are worth taking and not fidgety units requiring a lot of setup to use. Then I go down the Night Lords rabbit hole, then I ask myself how they are better than Berzerkers in transports and discard the list in disgust.

Well if you WANT to go down that Rabbit hole, Mark them Khorne and buy a Banner. That's a ~50% chance to make the charge.

In standard 40k I'm not sure. I never did figure them out in 6/7 either. Even when I could get them where I wanted them, they didn't do much and almost without fail I always wished I had taken something else.

That said, in the heavily houseruled version of 40k I've been playing, they're pretty good. The trick seems to be terrain. When the terrain really matters, and ground based units face a slow slog through dense terrain or having the face the open ground for a turn or two, they're good at taking out the backfield shooting units. They can hop over the forests, the ruins, the garrisoned buildings, etc... and engage the dangerous but vulnerable units supporting the main line like heavy weapon teams.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well if you WANT to go down that Rabbit hole, Mark them Khorne and buy a Banner. That's a ~50% chance to make the charge.

I'm not sure WANT is the right word, I just have ~20 nicely painted raptors that have been gilding a carry case for about 15-20 years.

But honestly, I could say the same thing about the 40+ Terminators I have, the various Defilers, Predators, Autocannon Havocs (pour one out for my 4th ed tank hunting IW havocs), the list goes on, it's the island of misfit toys really.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well if you WANT to go down that Rabbit hole, Mark them Khorne and buy a Banner. That's a ~50% chance to make the charge.

I'm not sure WANT is the right word, I just have ~20 nicely painted raptors that have been gilding a carry case for about 15-20 years.

But honestly, I could say the same thing about the 40+ Terminators I have, the various Defilers, Predators, Autocannon Havocs (pour one out for my 4th ed tank hunting IW havocs), the list goes on, it's the island of misfit toys really.

Well that's about the way to do it now. MoK doesn't change them rules wise, but rather how they interact with other models, so it breaks fluff slightly less.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Melta Bombs are terrible. Nobody is paying for Melta Bombs anymore.
2. Not sure where you got that math. Vanguard with all Chainswords is 4 attacks each, with 5 on the Sergeant if you want 2 on him as well. That's 21 attacks total, and that's 2.3 dead total.
3. You also can double up on Bolt Pistols of course if you want a Cowboy thing going on.

1. Terrible like the Tac Squads outperforming Sternguard in the other thread?

2. I assumed chainsword and Bolt Pistol, good call on double chainsword, although for at least the ASM turn the bolt Pistols make up the difference.

3. VV do have a ton of fun options, no doubt.

- My point here is that yes, VV are obviously better for assault, but they're only a tiny bit better at low point values. Imo you want to capitalize on the three attacks the sarge has, but it does drive the cost up. At 92 points compared to the VV 90 base, ASM can buy a pair of lightning claws and also achieve 2.3 wounds if you count their Bolt Pistols as well.

There might be an argument for buying Plasma Pistols and a Meltabomb to capitalize on Fly because they can leave combat and fire. The more I think about it the more I like the Meltabomb. S 8 D 6 wounds is awesome potential for 5 points. Buying pistols for the vets seems like a waste because I think upgrading their CC weapons is more ideal, since they can capitalize on their greater number of attacks.