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So, there's a fanfic thing on reddit about if the Emperor had decided to join Chaos after Nikaea and Horus found out after Lorgar tried to kill him on Davin.


I'm not sure their list of Legions on each side makes sense.

Assuming 9 Legions fall on each side, what would be the 2 sides of the Heresy if the Emperor turned to evil and Horus opposed him? Some Legions are Good and some Legions are Loyal.... and some of the original timeline Legions just hated the Emperor and some hated other Legions. Assuming the Word Bearers convinced the Emperor to ascend to Godhood and Horus was the center of the opposition, how would the Legions split? 9v9

So, my opinion and justifications are as follows.

Loyalists
Horus
Gulliman, Always one for the people and would see the emperor as vain, trying to become what he decreed he was not.
Magnus, after Chatisement from the emperor at the council, Magnus would not likely sway to the emperor IMO.
Mortarion, Despite calling out against magnus in the council, he was said to be more loyal to Horus.
Sanguinius, Having not broken his vow, Sanguinius would continue to stand by Horus I would think and was always perceived as just.
Vulkan, Despite loyalty to the emperor, this feels right in this situation.
Jaghatai Khan, Despite loyalty again, he believed in the emperors original vision and may feel the emperor betrayed them.


Traitor
The emperor
Lorgar, Destined to fall
Fulgrim, Destined to fall
Angron, Destined to fall
Alpharius Omegon, Chose the path of chaos after a prophetic meeting
Perturabo, If lore beforehand stays mostly the same, perturabo is also mostly destined to fall due to the rebellion of his homeworld.
Leman Russ, Swore fealty to the Emperor, and could be forced into coercion.

Bench (Those whom I can't fully decide on yet)
Konrad Kurze, Major Black horse, cynical of the emperor, how would he react when the emperor turned?
Lion'el Johnson, Another black horse.
Ferrus Manus, Turned away from joining chaos out of loyalty to the emperor, what would happen if the emperor turned?
Rogal Dorn
Corax


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, would it be possible for you to link the forum, I'm interested to see the proposed sidings of the fic.

I'm not sure I'm allowed to do that... mods, please don't ban me if this is against he rules. Also, wasn't reddit. Oops.



The list they give is: Imperial


Warmaster Horus

Didn't come out as 9v9 there.

Well, the Emperor was evil. But what do you mean by he turned to chaos? I mean, how are his sons going to distinguish between him "turning to chaos" and him just using his obvious psychic abilities and superhuman powers that he uses all the time? Are you saying the Emperor suddenly starts telling everyone that he discovered that the imperial truth is wrong, there are gods, and everyone should worship them?

I'm not sure any of the primarchs would have a problem with that. They could see the evidence of chaos gods for themselves. The only question is whether they would worship them OVER the emperor, and if the emperor tells them that they should, why shouldn't they believe him?

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Well, the Emperor was evil. But what do you mean by he turned to chaos? I mean, how are his sons going to distinguish between him "turning to chaos" and him just using his obvious psychic abilities and superhuman powers that he uses all the time? Are you saying the Emperor suddenly starts telling everyone that he discovered that the imperial truth is wrong, there are gods, and everyone should worship them?

I'm not sure any of the primarchs would have a problem with that. They could see the evidence of chaos gods for themselves. The only question is whether they would worship them OVER the emperor, and if the emperor tells them that they should, why shouldn't they believe him?

In the piece (which I have now linked to), Lorgar, after falling to Chaos himself as in OT, convinces the Emperor that the best way to defend humanity is to become a God and Chaos manages to corrupt him through this chink in his armor. Horus is wounded on Davin, but is saved in his dreams by Magnus, Curze, and Alpharius (for some reason- Magnus and Curze make perfect sense, though). Horus then goes about rounding up allies to destroy the Emperor and save Humanity.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
So, there's a fanfic thing on reddit about if the Emperor had decided to join Chaos after Nikaea and Horus found out after Lorgar tried to kill him on Davin.


I'm not sure their list of Legions on each side makes sense.

Assuming 9 Legions fall on each side, what would be the 2 sides of the Heresy if the Emperor turned to evil and Horus opposed him? Some Legions are Good and some Legions are Loyal.... and some of the original timeline Legions just hated the Emperor and some hated other Legions. Assuming the Word Bearers convinced the Emperor to ascend to Godhood and Horus was the center of the opposition, how would the Legions split? 9v9

If the Emperor fellt o chaos he wouldn't build the webway. That means not abandoning Horus (to build the webway), not chastising Magnus (to prevent him from mucking with the webway), and not splitting with Fulgrim (since fulgrim would eagerly follow him into worship)

At best The wolves would rebel and be destroyed. It would be a damn short civil war.

To go over the others:

Angron: Would always leapt to a chance at free agression. Probably likely to fall to chaos no matter what anyone did - which is a pity since he legion was so awesome before the fall

El-Johnson: Hell, he would never be on the losing side of anything

Ferrus Manus: Likes receiving orders. Probably wouldn't notice anything was wrong until years after he'd nailed his first human skin carpet to the wall

Dorn: He seems incapable fo finding fault with his father. He'd follow along out of principle

Gulliman: You'd think that he might since he was so hardcore into the Imperial Truth. Given he dropped those beliefs like deadweight when he ressurcted, though I don't believe he'd resist much.

Kurze: He knew he was doomed. He wouldn't do much other than grumble

Lorgar: As stated, would leap at the chance for a religous galaxy

Magnus: He'd dance while he fell into Tzench. He was never a big fan of Imperial Truth.

Alpahrius: Always a wild card, but I don't see them fighting a losing war by themselves

Leman Russ: As stated above I think he would resist. The man had a serious fear of psykers and a tendency to not care if a battle was futile

Corvax: He'd happily commit to the ever increasing violence in the shadows and like manus, probably wouldn't notice how far he fell until it was too late.

The Khan: The Kahn was loyal to his father and his mission. If daddy went chaos-y he'd do it to. Probably indulging in a lot of cannibalism along the way.

Perturbo: Again, the emperor would just give him a bunch of worlds to overkill and he wouldn't realize how far he'd fallen until he was going over human skin swatches with Manus years later - comparing interior decorating tips

Vulkan: It might be argued for him going rogue. He had a stronger sense of justice than his fellow primarchs and also didn't seem to mind being in a losing battle or two.

Sanguinius : Had a serious bloodthirsty streak that he already struggeled against. I'm pretty certain the only reason he isn't swinging for Khorne today is that Angron signed up before he could. Probably the least likely to go against his own father.

Mortarion: The man could have been recruited to chaos without anyone else doing so - like angron he was almost custom built for his patron chaos deity.

Fulgrim: too self-indulgent to really avoid his fate. I'm pretty certain he'd jump abroad as soon as he was shown slaneesh.

That leaves us with two, maybe three primarchs left. The emperor purged two primarchs before without difficulty. You'd need a lot of plot armor to make it happen otherwise. A better twist would be if the Emperor decided to become a God of Chaos (not too different from what Horus was told) and retired to Terra to start the sacrifices. That might at least get Horus. gulliman, fulgrim, mortarion, and Angron fallen to the original chaos gods. Even then - that's a whole lot of chaos and very little of an opposing theme.

Lion was the most tested of the primarchs when it came to chaos, his upbringing ... or lack there of, on caliban had chaos constantly whispering in his ears, trying to turn him, they never stopped trying, what it boiled down to is they could offer him nothing he didn't already have, he was utterly loyal to the emperor and would likely have sided with him, remember that caliban is basically a pretty looking daemon world, chaos is literally in the very soul of that planet, I think the lion was put there by chaos to taint him.

Also remember that the emperor had always planned on sending the primarchs out to various worlds, chaos just messed with who went where, fulgrim was supposed to Land on chogoris, not the Khan, so that's another factor of who fell to chaos eventually, it's pretty interesting.

 Formosa wrote:
Lion was the most tested of the primarchs when it came to chaos, his upbringing ... or lack there of, on caliban had chaos constantly whispering in his ears, trying to turn him, they never stopped trying, what it boiled down to is they could offer him nothing he didn't already have, he was utterly loyal to the emperor and would likely have sided with him, remember that caliban is basically a pretty looking daemon world, chaos is literally in the very soul of that planet, I think the lion was put there by chaos to taint him.

Also remember that the emperor had always planned on sending the primarchs out to various worlds, chaos just messed with who went where, fulgrim was supposed to Land on chogoris, not the Khan, so that's another factor of who fell to chaos eventually, it's pretty interesting.

What's the source for this?

 Formosa wrote:
Lion was the most tested of the primarchs when it came to chaos, his upbringing ... or lack there of, on caliban had chaos constantly whispering in his ears, trying to turn him, they never stopped trying, what it boiled down to is they could offer him nothing he didn't already have, he was utterly loyal to the emperor and would likely have sided with him, remember that caliban is basically a pretty looking daemon world, chaos is literally in the very soul of that planet, I think the lion was put there by chaos to taint him.

Also remember that the emperor had always planned on sending the primarchs out to various worlds, chaos just messed with who went where, fulgrim was supposed to Land on chogoris, not the Khan, so that's another factor of who fell to chaos eventually, it's pretty interesting.

Do you have a source for that?, I'm a bit sceptical

OK. So, the premise I left out. This happens after Nikaea. Horus is still stabbed with the Anathame, but is saved by at least one brother but possibly more that are 1) not in the Emperor's good graces and 2) psykers. Probably Magnus, probably Curze, maybe someone else. At this point, Lorgar has totally gone to Chaos. Fulgrim has his chaos sword. Dorn and Curze have fallen out, with Curze knowing whats coming and taken his Legion where it can't be chastized (as in OT). No idea what would happen with the Cabal, since their prediction would be something wildly different.

Also, keep in kind that some of the Primarchs (Perturabo, Mortarian, Angron) held a grudge against Big E for one reason or another in OT that contributed to their fall. It would not work the same way if Big E was *for* Chaos and Horus against it.

SideSwipe wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Lion was the most tested of the primarchs when it came to chaos, his upbringing ... or lack there of, on caliban had chaos constantly whispering in his ears, trying to turn him, they never stopped trying, what it boiled down to is they could offer him nothing he didn't already have, he was utterly loyal to the emperor and would likely have sided with him, remember that caliban is basically a pretty looking daemon world, chaos is literally in the very soul of that planet, I think the lion was put there by chaos to taint him.

Also remember that the emperor had always planned on sending the primarchs out to various worlds, chaos just messed with who went where, fulgrim was supposed to Land on chogoris, not the Khan, so that's another factor of who fell to chaos eventually, it's pretty interesting.

What's the source for this?

Trying to remember exactly which HH book it was, but pretty sure it was path to heaven or the other white scars one, also pretty sure it was Magnus telling the Khan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and if your talking about the lion and not how the primarchs got mixed up, go read all the HH Dark Angels novels, you'll come across it soon enough

Angron always despised the Emperor and saw him as a Tyrant, so while he is ultimately destined to fall to Khorne I think he would take the chance to put the Big E in the ground and stay loyal to the Imperial Truth, not that he gave many feths about it in the first place mind you. His humiliation at De'shea meant that he only cared for vengeance. As with the Horus Heresy, if it meant the chance to kill his father he would take it.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The list they give is: Imperial
Emperor's Children, Imperial Fists, Word Bearers, Iron Hands, White Scars, Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels

Warmaster Horus: Sons of Horus, Night Lords, Thousand Sons, Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, Salamanders, plus Luther's Angels

Didn't come out as 9v9 there.

I don't think these lists make a lot of sense. That the EC, IF and WB would side with the Emperor/Chaos is relatively clear to me (Fulgrim already should have the Laer blade, Dorn is pretty much blindly following daddy and Lorgar is... well, Lorgar). I can also imagine the Iron Hands. But I think the Death Guard and World Eaters are also relatively destined to turn to Chaos nonetheless. Night Lords as well, with all their terror tactic mumbo jumbo. Maybe I am wrong with this, I am absolutely NOT up-to-date with the OG Horus Humbug, so yeah.

The Legions I imagine would always side with the side opposing Chaos would be Salamanders (I can't imagine combining Chaos practices and the Cult of Nocturne), Space Wolves (they too are way to close with people, as evidenced during the aftermath of the first war for Armageddon, but I don't really know that much about the SW during the Heresy, so yeah), Blood Angels (yeah, sure, they always had some sort of diabolisitc tendencies, but when I think of Sanguinius during the Imperium Secundus-story arc, I recall that he had some serious scruples being dubbed Emperor), and also Ultramarines (when Guiliman thought that Terra has fallen, he set on to protect Ultramar and its people. I don't think that Chaos with its tendencies to destroy stuff and kill people for laugh and giggles would be something Guiliman would appreciate). SoH are pretty much given the backstory, Thousand Sons make also sense as well as Alpha Legion, so no problem for me here.

The two Legions I could imagine being wildcards of some sort are the Raven Guard. Both sides would make sense for me. Also, I have no idea what to do with the Dark Angels.

So, if I had any saying in this, the sides would be as follows:

Chaos/Emperors guys:
Emperor's Children, Imperial Fists, Word Bearers, Iron Hands, Death Guard, World Eaters, Night Lords.

Horus/rebels:
Sons of Horus, Salamanders, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion.

Wild Cards:
Raven Guard, Dark Angels

That leaves both the Iron Warriors and the White Scars out. I have really no idea where to put them. Maybe the Warriors on the side of the rebels, since their rivalry with the Fists? No idea.

I, of course, disagree with about half of your choices. Night Lords first and foremost.

If Conrad knew he was to be killed by the Emperor, he would side against the Emperor. That's pretty much exactly what happened in OT. Konrad knew Emps was going to kill him. He had his out and out with Dorn and Fulgrim, he turned to Horus to keep him and his Legion safe from judgement from his gakky brothers, most of whom he hated. Conrad seemed locked into conflict with the Emperor and nothing could change that, because Conrad.

I think the Wolves would have attacked Prospero at the Emperor's command, same as OT. It is possible they'd flip when they figured out what was actually going on, IF they figured that out.

It gets fuzzier from here.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


I, of course, disagree with about half of your choices. Night Lords first and foremost.

If Conrad knew he was to be killed by the Emperor, he would side against the Emperor. That's pretty much exactly what happened in OT. Konrad knew Emps was going to kill him. He had his out and out with Dorn and Fulgrim, he turned to Horus to keep him and his Legion safe from judgement from his gakky brothers, most of whom he hated. Conrad seemed locked into conflict with the Emperor and nothing could change that, because Conrad.

I think the Wolves would have attacked Prospero at the Emperor's command, same as OT. It is possible they'd flip when they figured out what was actually going on, IF they figured that out.

It gets fuzzier from here.

Looking back at my list, Kurze opposing the emperor makes sense, I can't believe as a Night lord player I forgot about the whole fact Kurze saw his death at the hands of the emperor during their first meeting. this unfortunately leaves my list as such:

Loyalists
Horus
Gulliman, The worlds of ultramar would be a good spot to secure as a staging point and a beacon of humanity. Could also make use of the Pharos later in the war.
Magnus, after Chatisement from the emperor at the council, Magnus would not likely sway to the emperor IMO.
Mortarion, Despite calling out against magnus in the council, he was said to be more loyal to Horus.
Sanguinius, Having not broken his vow, Sanguinius would (Hopefully, justly?) continue to stand by Horus I would think.
Vulkan, Despite loyalty to the emperor, this feels right in this situation.
Jaghatai Khan, Despite loyalty again, he believed in the emperors original vision and may feel the emperor betrayed them.
Konrad Kurze, Fated to die fighting against the emperor (as a figurative, not a literal fight)


Traitor
The emperor
Lorgar, Destined to fall
Fulgrim, Destined to fall
Angron, Destined to fall
Alpharius Omegon, Chose the path of chaos after a prophetic meeting
Perturabo, If lore beforehand stays mostly the same, perturabo is also mostly destined to fall due to the rebellion of his homeworld.
Leman Russ, Swore fealty to the Emperor, and could be forced into coercion/ early fall.

Bench (Those whom I can't fully decide on yet)
Lion'el Johnson, Another black horse.
Ferrus Manus, Turned away from joining chaos out of loyalty to the emperor, what would happen if the emperor turned?
Rogal Dorn
Corax

Again, with the last 4, it's difficult. I've read about the Dark angels further up and Lion'el being whispered to by chaos early on, his resistance puts him in good stead to stay loyal to horus but the last 3 all follow the emperor out of loyalty, it's whether they are blindly loyal or could see the emperor for the monster he would become.

I don't believe Angron to be destined to fall. His main flaw was his will of revenge against his father. But he was animated by a strong sense of honor and justice. While his tactics are very brutal, he wasn't just a madman. He just went for the way he had always knew (honor, hand to hand, shock and awe...) and that was effective.
If the Emperor betrayed, it would just prove him as the tyran Angron thought he was, and let him the opportunity to break his chains and to kill him, by staying in the good side.

 godardc wrote:
I don't believe Angron to be destined to fall. His main flaw was his will of revenge against his father. But he was animated by a strong sense of honor and justice. While his tactics are very brutal, he wasn't just a madman. He just went for the way he had always knew (honor, hand to hand, shock and awe...) and that was effective.
If the Emperor betrayed, it would just prove him as the tyran Angron thought he was, and let him the opportunity to break his chains and to kill him, by staying in the good side.

Thats something people dont get about Angron, it seems to be either too subtle or people disregard it, but he and the World Eaters were all about the Brotherhood, it was the nails that drove them mad, look at there rituals and how the Librarians look at them, and how Angron acts out of combat (moving amongst his men as an equal), The World Eaters would likely have been the Glue that held the legions together if you hold to "every primarch has a role", as none of the others embody brotherhood, Vulkan comes close but he is all about Humanity, if true then that makes Angron story even more tragic.

If the rebels are the good guys this time, you kind of have to have guilliman in with them as they wouldn’t be able to hide in the eye of terror and as far as I know ultramar was the only thing close to an independent structure

 Formosa wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I don't believe Angron to be destined to fall. His main flaw was his will of revenge against his father. But he was animated by a strong sense of honor and justice. While his tactics are very brutal, he wasn't just a madman. He just went for the way he had always knew (honor, hand to hand, shock and awe...) and that was effective.
If the Emperor betrayed, it would just prove him as the tyran Angron thought he was, and let him the opportunity to break his chains and to kill him, by staying in the good side.

Thats something people dont get about Angron, it seems to be either too subtle or people disregard it, but he and the World Eaters were all about the Brotherhood, it was the nails that drove them mad, look at there rituals and how the Librarians look at them, and how Angron acts out of combat (moving amongst his men as an equal), The World Eaters would likely have been the Glue that held the legions together if you hold to "every primarch has a role", as none of the others embody brotherhood, Vulkan comes close but he is all about Humanity, if true then that makes Angron story even more tragic.

It also makes sense why he's the Primarch that Chaos tried ti screw the hardest, with Curze being 2nd place. Angron had to be corrupted or driven mad in order for a break to be possible. Curze had to be corrupted or driven mad to prevent the Imperium from having forewarning about the plans of Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

goundry wrote:
If the rebels are the good guys this time, you kind of have to have guilliman in with them as they wouldn’t be able to hide in the eye of terror and as far as I know ultramar was the only thing close to an independent structure

Unless Horus kills the Emperor and Chaos is driven into the EoT.

Fair point although i was assuming that if things unfolded like the current heresy that even if horus beats the emperor there would be "loyalist" forces defending on them that drives them from sol

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I don't believe Angron to be destined to fall. His main flaw was his will of revenge against his father. But he was animated by a strong sense of honor and justice. While his tactics are very brutal, he wasn't just a madman. He just went for the way he had always knew (honor, hand to hand, shock and awe...) and that was effective.
If the Emperor betrayed, it would just prove him as the tyran Angron thought he was, and let him the opportunity to break his chains and to kill him, by staying in the good side.

Thats something people dont get about Angron, it seems to be either too subtle or people disregard it, but he and the World Eaters were all about the Brotherhood, it was the nails that drove them mad, look at there rituals and how the Librarians look at them, and how Angron acts out of combat (moving amongst his men as an equal), The World Eaters would likely have been the Glue that held the legions together if you hold to "every primarch has a role", as none of the others embody brotherhood, Vulkan comes close but he is all about Humanity, if true then that makes Angron story even more tragic.

It also makes sense why he's the Primarch that Chaos tried ti screw the hardest, with Curze being 2nd place. Angron had to be corrupted or driven mad in order for a break to be possible. Curze had to be corrupted or driven mad to prevent the Imperium from having forewarning about the plans of Chaos.

I'd still have to disagree, If you look up to the lead up to Nikaea, Angron had already been cenured by the emperor for his practices and he ignored orders by the emperor and was slaughtering worlds. Brotherhood within the legion is all well and good, but outside of that, almost everything else was fair game and other primarch's weren't impressed by his actions. The Night of the Wolf took place before Nikaea and that pretty much cements the position that, despite it not yet even being aware of Khorne, The World eaters were already only a stones throw away from falling into his worship. If the Emperor suddenly went LAWL Chaos Mo' Fo's and gave Angron free reign to dispose "Justice" then you have one hell of a culling of worlds to come.

Tristanleo wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I don't believe Angron to be destined to fall. His main flaw was his will of revenge against his father. But he was animated by a strong sense of honor and justice. While his tactics are very brutal, he wasn't just a madman. He just went for the way he had always knew (honor, hand to hand, shock and awe...) and that was effective.
If the Emperor betrayed, it would just prove him as the tyran Angron thought he was, and let him the opportunity to break his chains and to kill him, by staying in the good side.

Thats something people dont get about Angron, it seems to be either too subtle or people disregard it, but he and the World Eaters were all about the Brotherhood, it was the nails that drove them mad, look at there rituals and how the Librarians look at them, and how Angron acts out of combat (moving amongst his men as an equal), The World Eaters would likely have been the Glue that held the legions together if you hold to "every primarch has a role", as none of the others embody brotherhood, Vulkan comes close but he is all about Humanity, if true then that makes Angron story even more tragic.

It also makes sense why he's the Primarch that Chaos tried ti screw the hardest, with Curze being 2nd place. Angron had to be corrupted or driven mad in order for a break to be possible. Curze had to be corrupted or driven mad to prevent the Imperium from having forewarning about the plans of Chaos.

I'd still have to disagree, If you look up to the lead up to Nikaea, Angron had already been cenured by the emperor for his practices and he ignored orders by the emperor and was slaughtering worlds. Brotherhood within the legion is all well and good, but outside of that, almost everything else was fair game and other primarch's weren't impressed by his actions. The Night of the Wolf took place before Nikaea and that pretty much cements the position that, despite it not yet even being aware of Khorne, The World eaters were already only a stones throw away from falling into his worship. If the Emperor suddenly went LAWL Chaos Mo' Fo's and gave Angron free reign to dispose "Justice" then you have one hell of a culling of worlds to come.

it was the NAILS that caused there downfall, as soon as Angron had the NAILS put into him, whatever plan the Big E had for him was over, you are correct on everything else though, centure etc. but you are looking at the end result, no nails, no insane world eaters, bad ass close combat troops sure, but not insane bezerkers.