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Sporefield wrote:Use this Stratagem after both armies have deployed, but before the battle begins. You can add up to two units of Spore Mines to your army as reinforcements and set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 12" from enemy models.

Find the Best Spot wrote:Instead of deploying normally this unit may wait until both armies are fully deployed then be placed anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 18" form enemy models.

Do these two rules occur at the same time? If so do you roll off for placement?

Find the best spot happens instantly after both armies are deployed.


Sporefield happens instantly before the first player turn begins.


You do find the best spot first.

Are you sure? "After both armies have deployed" and "Wait until both armies are fully deployed" seem substantially similar to me. both are before the first battle round, not the first player turn. Sporefield is definitely before things like Forward Operatives. Is it your contention that the "before the battle begins" clause changes the timing for Sporefield?

It's essentially the same wording, due to 8th's conversational English. Dice it off.

That's what I thought, although I certainly welcome other opinions. I always want to shift my view if I'm wrong.

If dicing off for, let's say, 4 Ratling units and one use of the stratagem how do you think this would be resolved if, the Imperial Guard player won the roll off:

One Ratling Squad
One Sporemine Squad
One Ratling Squad
One Sporemine Squad
Remaining Ratlings

OR

One Ratling Squad
Two Spore Mine Squads
Remaining Ratlings

OR

All Ratlings
All Spore Mines

They do essentially mean the same thing. They are both the old Infiltrate deployment.

I'm just looking strictly at RAW with my first response.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
They do essentially mean the same thing. They are both the old Infiltrate deployment.

I'm just looking strictly at RAW with my first response.

You're dissecting it too much then, in my view, and I don't believe the meaning you added is there. Those rules don't stand up to laser-scrutiny - they're conversationally written and the same thing. It's a shame they didn't standardise. There's no 'immediately' or difference in time frame in either of them, though. Both happen at once, so dice off.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
I'm just looking strictly at RAW with my first response.

You say that like that's a bad thing?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
They do essentially mean the same thing. They are both the old Infiltrate deployment.

I'm just looking strictly at RAW with my first response.

I was looking for a RAW response and I was disagreeing based on RAW. I don't see a timing difference there, but I'd be happy for you to explain why it is if you still think so.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
I'm just looking strictly at RAW with my first response.

You say that like that's a bad thing?

It's not a bad thing if you get the RAW right. Adding meaning/wording not there makes it an incorrect interpretation.

Since the statement "but before the battle begins" is a difference between the 2.

Since find the best spot doesn't have that, but spore field does, it infers that there are stages of time in between deployment and the start of the game.

There are other such rules that happen in his "Game Start" phase I'm sure.

If you assume that there is such a phase, then spore fields description would lead you to believe it happens later in the sequencing.


Note this relies upon assumptions so take that as you will.

Even if such a phase existed (and I don't think it does) then why would the wording saying when that phase ended being included change the timing within it? I'm less interested in that though than in the order of deployment after a player wins the rolloff.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Since the statement "but before the battle begins" is a difference between the 2.

Since find the best spot doesn't have that, but spore field does, it infers that there are stages of time in between deployment and the start of the game.

There are other such rules that happen in his "Game Start" phase I'm sure.

If you assume that there is such a phase, then spore fields description would lead you to believe it happens later in the sequencing.


Note this relies upon assumptions so take that as you will.

Yeah I don't agree that time period is split It's all "after deployment but before the game begins" so the rules are functionally identical.

Drager wrote:
Use this Stratagem after both armies have deployed, but before the battle begins. You can add up to two units of Spore Mines to your army as reinforcements and set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 12" from enemy models.

Are the two units of spore mines part of the tyranid army ? If yes, find the spot cant be used first, because both armies are not fully deployed.

Find the Best Spot wrote:Instead of deploying normally this unit may wait until both armies are fully deployed then be placed anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 18" form enemy models. Do these two rules occur at the same time? If so do you roll off for placement?

Find the best spot makes no sense, its broken. Ratlings are part of the army. So they must be deployed normally to fulfill the requirement that both armies are fully deployed. Then they cant be placed anywhere on the battlefield 18" from enemy models. The rule doesnt allow redeployment.

Ohhhh I seeeeee, one's a Stratagem... hmmmmm, maybe the mines do go second, then.

Agree you do Find The Best Spot first, in hindsight. Now for more coffee!

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ohhhh I seeeeee, one's a Stratagem... hmmmmm, maybe the mines do go second, then.

Agree you do Find The Best Spot first, in hindsight. Now for more coffee!

Why would it being a stratagem make the mines go second?

Drager wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ohhhh I seeeeee, one's a Stratagem... hmmmmm, maybe the mines do go second, then.

Agree you do Find The Best Spot first, in hindsight. Now for more coffee!

Why would it being a stratagem make the mines go second?

Because you can only choose to play it after the Ratlings have deployed. If you try before that then the AM aren't finished deploying.

So after all I agree with Eihnlazer!

Why would that be different were it a unit ability?

Drager wrote:
Why would that be different were it a unit ability?

If it were a unit ability the unit would be in your army and 'activate' at the same step as the Ratlings (basis for my first, erroneous answer) so you'd dice off.

As the unit isn't in your army if created via a Stratagem it's not playable until the Ratlings are on the table.

Why does them being in your army matter? Would that not mean more things were not deployed and, as such be more likely to delay the rule?

Why do the things that count for the trigger change depending on if it is a unit ability or a stratagem?

Because if it was in your army you have two simultaneous rules happening.

If not in your army, waiting to be created by stratagem usage, the Ratlings have to be deployed before you can follow the wording of the Stratagem itself.

The mine deploy stratagem does not say that both armies have to be fully deployed, only deployed. The difference is the word "fully". Both armies have deployed when they both set up one unit. Find the best spot doesnt work until both armies are fully deployed. If the mines are part of the tyranid army the ratlings go last. Or they dont, because the find the best spot rule is broken.

p5freak wrote:
The mine deploy stratagem does not say that both armies have to be fully deployed, only deployed. The difference is the word "fully". Both armies have deployed when they both set up one unit. Find the best spot doesnt work until both armies are fully deployed. If the mines are part of the tyranid army the ratlings go last. Or they dont, because the find the best spot rule is broken.

I disagree. A unit is deployed when it has deployed, yes. But an army has deployed when every unit is deployed. That's fairly self-evident.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

p5freak wrote:
The mine deploy stratagem does not say that both armies have to be fully deployed, only deployed. The difference is the word "fully". Both armies have deployed when they both set up one unit. Find the best spot doesnt work until both armies are fully deployed. If the mines are part of the tyranid army the ratlings go last. Or they dont, because the find the best spot rule is broken.

I disagree. A unit is deployed when it has deployed, yes. But an army has deployed when every unit is deployed. That's fairly self-evident.

Ok, but why does the rule say fully deployed, and the stratagem only deployed ?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Because if it was in your army you have two simultaneous rules happening.

If not in your army, waiting to be created TBB stratagem usage, the Ratlings have to be deployed before you can follow the wording of the Stratagem itself.

The stratagem is also a rule with the same trigger isn't it? Why would this not also be simultaneous?

I understand your assertion, I just don't follow how you get there. I see two identical rules, one hypothetical unit deployment rule and one stratagem, I don't see why the exact same timing works differently between them. Can you explain?

Drager wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Because if it was in your army you have two simultaneous rules happening.

If not in your army, waiting to be created TBB stratagem usage, the Ratlings have to be deployed before you can follow the wording of the Stratagem itself.

The stratagem is also a rule with the same trigger isn't it? Why would this not also be simultaneous?

I understand your assertion, I just don't follow how you get there. I see two identical rules, one hypothetical unit deployment rule and one stratagem, I don't see why the exact same timing works differently between them. Can you explain?

The Ratlings exist in the AM army, held back for deployment after all other deployment.
Spore Mines created by a Stratagem don't exist yet, so you need to wait until the conditions of the Stratagem are fulfilled... namely all other deployment is done. If you play it before the Ratlings are deployed, all other deployment is not done.
If the Spore Mines were part of the army AND had a similar rule to the Ratlings then they'd be deploying at the same time as Ratlings, so you'd roll off to see who placed theirs first.
As it is, the Strategem forces you to wait until after the Ratlings, due to the conditions of its use.

That's how I see it. It's entirely hypothetical anyway, and I'm not sure I can explain any more clearly, I feel I'm just saying the same thing phrased differently. Sorry i can't be more help!

It's OK. I think I see what you mean now, I also, sadly, think it is incoherent.

To me, either the Ratlings count as something that must be deployed before that trigger fires (which breaks the game) or they don't (which allows the stratagem). Having it change what the words mean depending on where the trigger sits is incoherent as far as I can see.

Do you also see my point of view, although you disagree with it?

Yep, it was what I thought first, totally see where you're coming from. TBH, just discuss and agree with opponent before deployment and figure out what's most fun.

I'll be using it in tournaments too, but then I'll just email the TO before hand and find out what the ruling is. Sporefield seems quite good as a thing to fence off deepstrike zones for nids a la the old Servo Skulls for inquisitors.

Drager wrote:
I'll be using it in tournaments too, but then I'll just email the TO before hand and find out what the ruling is. Sporefield seems quite good as a thing to fence off deepstrike zones for nids a la the old Servo Skulls for inquisitors.

Also fun to block Sentinel's Scout moves and make them useless for two turns, as I did recently!